I just read the rules

[Netrogo]

Entertainment.

Works for me.

[thegayhare]

errr Don't I get a say in this?

I request a parachuet... or life raft or atleast a cocktail umbrella

[xHaZxMaTx]

Too late.

[bill]

Hey, the stain on the pavement's talking!

[Netrogo]

Ooooooh the goo speaks! Awesome, let's put it in a freakshow and charge admission

On a side note

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Hey, the stain on the pavement's talking!

No, the hat of the stain on the pavement is talking. The stain on the pavement didn't say anything.

[skwerly]

Three billion.

Finally missed after the 985th bell.  Poor bunny floated off screen before he hit bottom.

Zina, I think we broke something.  Shouldn't our scores be a multiple of 10?

[Netrogo]

That is odd how it seems to have broken on both your games, wonder when in your game play it occured.

[Destina Faroda]

Yeah, the quoted words were written a few days ago, but I actually didn't see the post until now.

They aren't wrong. You are like this horrible catch-22 of logic. "If I do this, you'll do this, so I do this, and you do this... and then we end up back where we started..."

I begin with the presumption that we non admin people are all equal.

If it's okay for someone else to do something, then it should be okay for me to do the same thing.  However, restrictions are placed.  Take this thread.

You bashed a newbie with every reply you made, although since you did it in the introduction thread it's not "technically" against the rules.  Furthermore you just admitted to being an "asshole", but since it has been collectively determined that this is not being an "idiot" or falling under any of the ambiguous guidelines, it's allowed.  Other people joke around, calling people names, and then it's all "fun."

So Netami and I joke around and we get the WHAMMY of doom?  I don't see where the equality in that is.

Or take the art thread (now threads) in the The Lusty Siren Tavern.  You give anyone free reign to draw what they want except me.  Despite me for once being open to the idea of adult matierial (which as you know is a big step), you refused to post my work to based on my intent -- before I even drew the piece.  So, yeah, I will overreact when I feel you are turning against me and being prejudiced in a matter where judgment shouldn't enter.

If it's "Catch-22 logic"...simply remove one of the existing conditions.  Then it won't be circular.  Either let me joke around like them, or don't let anyone joke around, since some of those "jokes" are rather hurtful.  Then again, my feelings apparently don't matter.

Argueing with you is a pointless... and honestly sad, activity. I've known you well enough to know that getting into an argument with you isn't worth the effort, because while you read everything that's said, you don't process it. You seem to just skim over the post trying to find points you can tear apart, missing the context of the post.

Maybe I don't process something because I don't understand it, and when I ask for clarification or actually try to reason out my disagreement, I get the "I'm right, you're wrong.  It's my show."  Up until now there's been no explanation for why you feel the way you feel, and even now you've explained yourself to everyone, even Netami, far more than you explain to me, even though we were just accused saying the same thing.

And maybe I am dumb, but I don't understand how this mythical "context" makes anything better or worse, since context is communally determined.  If the words are for public display, the circumstances surrounding the words are rather irrelevant.  Simply mean what you write, or if you're joking, then declare your intent that you're joking if there's any confusion.

And, sadly, I just can't keep defending you. I mean, I like you when you aren't on a tear. When you are on a tear, I try to keep everyone from over reacting... but at this point, people aren't overreacting... except for you.

If you feel you can't defend me, then don't attack me or enable attacks to be thrown in my direction while tying my hands.

I considered being labeled a "brick wall" and other collective based judgements just one step away from being called a nasty name, because in the end, it's the same category -- attacking of the person.  I don't like people framing my actions and collectively defining me without explaining their reasons.   It's not much different than calling me a slur, because there's no real recourse against it.  If you agree with it, then you're stuck with the label, and if you disagree with it, it doesn't matter, since the label is stuck on you with the community's superglue.

Then you just say I'm on a tear.  Instead of just saying I'm overreacting (and then getting everyone else to agree), have you ever bothered to find out why I'm reacting that way?  I'm not saying you have to care.  But you have no moral right to make judgments or allow judgments to be made on someone's feelings that you don't care about.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Because Destina hasn't, here's a link to the post she's responding to:
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2841.msg119488#msg119488

[Amber Williams]

Truth be told, I'm the one who dealt the "whammy", and the only thing I said to Netami was:

Netami: Got the memo, good points had.  Needs more lasers.  See you next thread where there is somewhere to complain about the admins.  Bring coffee please.

I'm not exactly sure where I was particularly warning him against his actions.  You were the only one I warned.  And while you decided to seize onto my comments about my displeasure at your action in the prior thread...that was actually not the reason you were warned. 

You were warned because you had been involved in a heated thread that got locked down  and less than 24 hours later, you had hopped into a second thread and were ultimately "stirring shit up".  It came across very much, even if you didn't intend for it to, that you got blocked off in one thread so went onto a new one to vent your frustrations.   Had you waited for the previous thread to at least collect moderate dust before going into a new heated argument, or had you just come into the thread to complain without prior issues (such as what Netami did), I would have been more than happy to let you continue on.  But you had multiple things going against you, where as everyone else had only one.

I do hold all non-admin people equal, or I try.  (Yes, I do happen to make mistakes from time to time. People are free to PM me saying I might have made a rash judgement.)  Had anyone else caused issues in a thread which caused lockdown, and then pretty much next post in is hopping into another issue...I would warn them as well.  It's been done in the past when various members would hop from thread to thread hounding another poster with acidic comments.

I realize the exception in this is Darkmoon, who had also been involved in past threads as well as this one.  And while I realize this next part is probably going to be the focus of any responses, I'll say it anyways.  I don't have the ability to warn or ban Darkmoon in the same way I can warn or ban a non-admin.  Issues with other admins are handled differently and often in discussion with other mod/admins...away from the general public.

However, I think the majority of your post is an issue that you and Dmoon need to work out between eachother.  It would probably be more effective to take it to PM and actually talking to eachother one-on-one than dragging the conversation out on the message boards.  But I'll leave that up to you and Dmoon to decide.

[Darkmoon]

I don't have time to respond to this currently.

[Damaris]

He's gone to work, to add clarification.  He will most likely reply to this tonight around comic time.

[Destina Faroda]

Well, I'll limit my comments to Mab.

First I'll say thank you for explaining.  If you had presented your comments like this, I probably would have still been mad, but I would have had far less to complain about.

Truth be told, I'm the one who dealt the "whammy", and the only thing I said to Netami was:

Netami: Got the memo, good points had.  Needs more lasers.  See you next thread where there is somewhere to complain about the admins.  Bring coffee please.

No, you also addressed him and I as a unit later in the same post.

In all theory I should lock the thread, if only because if I leave it open, odds are you two cheeky monkeys are going to continue onward into the next level. And while I'm sure it will look pretty on the martyr resume, I'd rather you both save your points and live to gripe about the admins another day.

Ignoring the cheeky "monkeys" insult that attacks our character, this implies that you were at the very least expressing administrative action against both of us.   Why even write that last part if you were only directing your moderator venom to me?

I'm not exactly sure where I was particularly warning him against his actions.  You were the only one I warned.  And while you decided to seize onto my comments about my displeasure at your action in the prior thread...that was actually not the reason you were warned.

But when you add all that stuff into the moderating post, it creates the impression that you intervened because your "friends" got attacked.  Combined with your other comments to Netami and myself, it appears to me that you have one set of standards for  me and another set of standards for other people.

You were warned because you had been involved in a heated thread that got locked down  and less than 24 hours later, you had hopped into a second thread and were ultimately "stirring shit up".  It came across very much, even if you didn't intend for it to, that you got blocked off in one thread so went onto a new one to vent your frustrations.   Had you waited for the previous thread to at least collect moderate dust before going into a new heated argument, or had you just come into the thread to complain without prior issues (such as what Netami did), I would have been more than happy to let you continue on.  But you had multiple things going against you, where as everyone else had only one.

So, if you're involved in a discussion that goes haywire, in essence you can't post on the board, even in fun.  Strangely, I don't see that restriction being applied to anyone else, since it takes several people to make a heated discusssion.  If you're going to put one on the watch list, put everybody involved there, and limit all discussion equally.  But if a thread can go off topic and certain people have "multiple things" held against them in a completely unrelated thread  (this one) while others can post in fun about the same off-topic issue that the locked topic was locked for, then that throws out the notion of the treating people equally.

The reason why I come to this conclusion is this.  With the exception of the first post which was rightly brushed aside, there was nothing in this thread that was an attack or had anything remotely to with the parties involved in the other thread.  Yes, Netami and I were taking potshots at the rules and general moderator behavior, but you just admitted that was not the reason you stepped in as a moderator.

So what "multiple things" were against me?  If you're referring to all the things you mentioned that you say were not the reason for your warning, then those things do not count.  If they do count toward the warning, then these events have corrupted your actions as well, since it means your moderator actions are fueled by your displeasure and dislike.

I do hold all non-admin people equal, or I try.  (Yes, I do happen to make mistakes from time to time. People are free to PM me saying I might have made a rash judgement.)  Had anyone else caused issues in a thread which caused lockdown, and then pretty much next post in is hopping into another issue...I would warn them as well.  It's been done in the past when various members would hop from thread to thread hounding another poster with acidic comments.

So, you're saying that I caused the issue in the other thread, despite saying in the actual thread that emotions were running high and that everyone needed to cool down?  If so, why did you wait to blame me in this thread?  Isn't this also a form of post-hopping?

If anything, cheap shots were thrown in my direction.  Granted, I entered the thread, but does that give others the right to call me or any other posters names, or to write me off?

Issues can only arise with multiple people involved.  Picking one person, even if they seem to cause the issue, doesn't solve anything.  It just makes the group's self-perpetuating wrongness accepted.

As you mentioned, the rest of this is probably not fit for a post here.

[Netrogo]

...and we put so much work into getting this topic AWAY from all that.

No offence Destina but when you get down to it this is Amber and her brother's forum (if there are other owners and such, appologies for not knowing). They own it, pay the rent on it, and keep it organized... ish.... It's like their house, if you don't like how things are done in someone's house you don't get fed up with them and try to get them to change, you just deal with it. If it really bothers you, you just don't go to their house anymore.

I have friends that smoke. They smoke so much at home that I don't go to their houses. My home is smoke free, when someone tries to smoke in my house they get sent outside, if they don't like it tough. My house, my rules.

The forums the same way. If they seem judgmental, biased, and picking favourites so what. I'm pretty sure nobody's forcing you to come here, and if you're coming here of your own choice then (unless you're an idiot) you didn't come here expecting this place to work how YOU see fit. Mind you if you DID come here expecting everything to go according to what you want, then yeah you're a complete freaking idiot. God knows if someone came in my house and started acting like it was theirs, well let's just say I have windows for more then just letting air and light in.

[Amber Williams]

First I'll say thank you for explaining.  If you had presented your comments like this, I probably would have still been mad, but I would have had far less to complain about.

Honestly, I thought I did.  It just seemed to me you were brushing that part over for the more juicy bits and to handle the direct arguments from other people.

Ignoring the cheeky "monkeys" insult that attacks our character, this implies that you were at the very least expressing administrative action against both of us.   Why even write that last part if you were only directing your moderator venom to me?

Umm...cheeky monkeys isnt an attack.  It's more an "oh you guys" casual dismissal.   And the comment was more a desire for caution.  Cause I have, and I do, occasionally suggest in threads for people to maybe take consideration into their posts since things are heating up.  If I was warning you both, I would say "you are both warned" with the grace and tact of a brick.

I realize you, Destina, have a hard time comprehending when people are joking and when they are serious, but in my case, when I am serious I tend to avoid using cute euphamisms and friendly language and go straight into the punch.

But when you add all that stuff into the moderating post, it creates the impression that you intervened because your "friends" got attacked.  Combined with your other comments to Netami and myself, it appears to me that you have one set of standards for  me and another set of standards for other people.

Why should I care if you are having a slap-fight with Zina and Darkmoon?  All three of you are big kids.  Regardless, I told you the reason for your warning in its details. What "impression" I made beforehand shouldn't matter, since impressions are often made on biased judgments.

So, if you're involved in a discussion that goes haywire, in essence you can't post on the board, even in fun.

No.  If you are involved, and one of the central figures in a discussion that goes haywire, you can't post directly after in a new thread more things to fuel the flame.  Don't play coy Destina.  I'm not even talking about the Lusty Siren thread.  The thread that got locked got locked at May 29, 2007, 01:58:50 PM.  Your first post in this one was May 29, 2007, 11:52:42 PM.  There wasn't even a grace period. 

Strangely, I don't see that restriction being applied to anyone else, since it takes several people to make a heated discusssion.  If you're going to put one on the watch list, put everybody involved there, and limit all discussion equally.  But if a thread can go off topic and certain people have "multiple things" held against them in a completely unrelated thread  (this one) while others can post in fun about the same off-topic issue that the locked topic was locked for, then that throws out the notion of the treating people equally.

Firstly, I'm not the main moderator of the CVRPG forum. I'm more the "I randomly stop in when I get memo'd something is happening" mod.   The CVRPG forum is Darkmoon and Damaris' domain primarily.  Which is why my warning only came from when you hopped from the locked thread to a thread in the Villa.   And the only ones involved from the locked thread and this one are you and Darkmoon. (Evil Richter is absent, Seth Triggs is absent, etc)

The reason you don't see the restriction applied to other people is because you are looking in another place for your examples.  This warning is only about the locked thread and this one combined.

So what "multiple things" were against me?  If you're referring to all the things you mentioned that you say were not the reason for your warning, then those things do not count.  If they do count toward the warning, then these events have corrupted your actions as well, since it means your moderator actions are fueled by your displeasure and dislike.

You and Evil Richter and Darkmoon caused a hissy fit to get a thread locked down.
Less than 24 hours later, you hopped into another thread with what seemed the only intent to vent your frustrations.
You cannot be the center of two potential issues of trouble and not expect some repurcussion.  And what is defined as an issue of trouble is woefully up to the mods/admins to decide.

So, you're saying that I caused the issue in the other thread, despite saying in the actual thread that emotions were running high and that everyone needed to cool down?  If so, why did you wait to blame me in this thread?  Isn't this also a form of post-hopping?

I didn't want the thread locked. I expected when I went to bed that things would continue on discussion.  I expected Seth would get a chance to defend himself, and that the thread would go on. I didn't expect it to get locked down less than 4 posts later, and I definately didn't expect to see you jump into a "rawr. Admins are poopy biased buggers" less than 24 hours later.

Lemme let you in on something.
I am personally displeased at your attacks in the last thread.
I am adminally displeased that you couldn't hold back yourself from jumping into another hotspot before the embers of the last thread even cooled. 

If anything, cheap shots were thrown in my direction.  Granted, I entered the thread, but does that give others the right to call me or any other posters names, or to write me off?

So why didn't you take the high road and report them? Oh...lemme guess...you thought since Zina was a mod and a friend of mine that she would get no retribution and have favour granted.  So instead you just decided to wallow around and sling stuff right back.  Bravo.

Nice to see the flaws in the admin system are working both sides.

Issues can only arise with multiple people involved.  Picking one person, even if they seem to cause the issue, doesn't solve anything.  It just makes the group's self-perpetuating wrongness accepted.

No.  Picking you doesn't seem to solve the issue, at least according to you.   There has been several people who have been warned for their actions, but you likely don't even know who they are because whenever the admins are doing things that could be considered "right", it doesnt even make a splash. Its only when the admins do something you dont like, that it becomes an "issue".

You arent special in your situation Destina. People have been warned for doing stuff like this in the past.

Now, I'm sure we can do this back and forth for days on end.  But frankly, I have better things to do than spend half hours going around the mulberry bush with you.    I stand by my warning.  And if after this you still think its a bastardization of the system, I'm just going to have to say "sorry you feel that way" and leave it at that. 

[Darkmoon]

Mab more or less answered everything I would have said, but I'll make sure to emphasis it from my perspective.

For one, the Lusty Sirens thread picks up the thread of the discussion that was NOT a flame war. Had we wanted to, we could have split the thread, separating the flame discussion from the non-flame (and if you check the mine, you will see we've done this in the past, thus setting precedent). A new thread was made, however, saving us the energy. There was no reason for that PART of the discussion to be closed, and so it wasn't.

Second, you're unhappy because you feel I slammed you for wanting to do art. That was not the intention. The intention was to inform you that if the artwork did not suit the needs of the site (ie, artwork done in good humor, and art work of characters featured in the comics), then I wouldn't put it up. I didn't even mention that quality would be a factor, because, for you, it wouldn't have been. It would be for other people, but I let you slide with a lot more than other people get.

No matter whether you think it's wrong or not for me to set qualifications for what I want on MY site, I am allowed to set whatever qualifications i want, and after the third time I stated exactly that, over and over again, you should have dropped it, because OBVIOUSLY, I'm not changing my mind on the matter.

Context is important, and since I'm the one posting it, it would all come down to my view of the context. I can miss interpret, lord knows I might from time to time, but that's how art is. Everyone views it from their own perspective, and when it comes to CVRPG, my perspective is law.

Thirdly, you were warned for good reason. You started flame-baiting in another thread when less than 12 hours had gone by. If ANYONE else had done that, they would have gotten a warning as well. Hell, I've even gotten one from Damaris in the past, so even I am not above the law.

Like me or don't like me on the forums. I try to do what's right as an admin, and I try to be myself as a poster. Sometimes I'm both at once, but I usually try to divide the two, preventing myself from being an ass when I'm an admin, and stopping myself from being an admin when I'm an ass in a thread. I can't do both, so I have to choose, in order to be fair.

I'm not going to go the Netrogo route and tell you that this is the Kingdom of Darkmoon and all must bow to me because it's on my server. All are welcome, so long as they stick to the rules. The rules were decided upon by all the admins, and we regularly refresh them. If you don't like the rules, it's true, no one is making you stay here.

However, you are allowed to voice your displeasure about the rules. Everyone is. For you, though, you will need to take it to PMs until the admins say otherwise. You've started to two flame bait conversations on this board complaining about the rules. I don't think it wise to start anymore, since we could percieve that as just another flame topic, whether you mean for it to be or not.

I dunno if you'll read this or not, but that's where I stand and that's my position. It won't change.

[Darkmoon]

Had to double post. It's not record breaking like the last few players, but:

209443800

[Zina]

I am....somewhat ashamed of this.

[Darkmoon]

Oh my fucking lord. How in the fuckin hell did you do THAT?!

[Zina]

I didn't want to write my paper. That's how.

[Netrogo]

I just finished breaking 9 billion and you're into the trillions? Wow.

[Darkmoon]

Yeah, somehow my 209 mil is so much less impressive...

[xHaZxMaTx]

She's a witch!  Burn 'er!

[Netrogo]

Whoo angry post victorian era witch burning mob! *grabs his torch and pitchfork that he keeps ready for just such an occassion*

[Darkmoon]

You have those actually ready for that specific purpose,. or do you live on a farm and just like to say you do...?

(shines a spotlight)

We want the truth!

[Netrogo]

I keep them in my closet next to my zombie survival kit, my special riot clothes, and my katana.

[xHaZxMaTx]

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[Darkmoon]

I keep them in my closet next to my zombie survival kit, my special riot clothes, and my katana.

And your My Little Pony collection.

[Netrogo]

I keep them in my closet next to my zombie survival kit, my special riot clothes, and my katana.

And your My Little Pony collection.

Nah that's up on the shelf on the other side of the room.