20/11/2011 [DMFA #1265] - Firearms and Drawing Arms

[Tezkat]

Firstly, spells are vastly different from bullets. They can have a variety of rules that they run on.  In some fiction, for example, a simple circle of salt on the ground will negate even the most powerful spells or hexes.

Bullets on the other hand, are a manipulation of the currently existing laws of physics and if you combine that with the forces of a bullet, especially when fired from a modern gun, it would require a large amount of reality negation in order to prevent damage.  Not only that, but you have to invest power to maintain such a shield with each hit sapping vast amounts of power prolonged exposure would result in a inability to maintain the shield.  Plus as it seems in the comic most of those entities powerful enough to cast the shield might not recognize the gun as a dangerous weapon, or even they do have a shield up might not invest enough power to fully negate a hit.

Huh?

Word of goddess indicates that nonmagical bullets are easily blocked by shield spells. She first stated as much in a post on the Nice forums back in 2005 and has repeated it a number of times.

We've seen shield spells used twice in the comic, both reactively. The first time, it was thrown up to block a rain of firebolts. The second, to block a sword slash. Interestingly, both instances featured a (presumed) Being spellcaster, which suggests that it's lower level magic that Creatures could probably do better. And in both cases, the defender remained active and mobile. In the Demon attack, Glory's shield blocked an assault powerful enough to subsequently one-shot an experienced Adventurer. In the friendly duel, Wildy integrated the shield seamlessly into her magical offensive.

It's been established that nonmagical weapons are unlikely to kill (or even seriously injure) most Demons, even without extra magical protection. Unless you can somehow disable your opponent with a surprise attack, all you've really done is piss off a supernaturally strong and agile death machine who, thanks to easily activated shield spells, will be impervious to your attacks for at least long enough to hurt you back.

Centuries of technological innovation separate the innacurate, short range, single-shot boomstick that's virtually guaranteed to get you killed from the kind of high powered, rapid fire onslaught that might have a chance of overwhelming a Creature's natural and magical defences (assuming that's actually feasible in the first place). With little utility in the intermediary stages, it's quite implausible that people would even pursue that line of development.

[Lore]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[VAE]

This is why we can't have nice things.

Nah, you are mistaking it with manufacture outsourcing.

[Darkmoon]

My good sir, I do believe it's time for tea.

[justacritic]

And topic go to the heaven that is HELL!
But seriously our Lady has given her answer, trying to dig at it like a well placed nugget eventually gets old.

[Mao]

It left old a while back.  This has redefined stale and given us a brand new perspective on crusty.  It's downright appalling I say!  The facts were given, and then picked over like vultures on with a rotten carcass!  Rotten gobs of slimy gook, slapping and slathering all over the place and drying to the walls in disgusting rivulets!  It'd be enough to drive a person mad were they to read it!

And that, my dear little crumpets, is why you're all here.  It's because you're all mad and this is the place for the mad things.  You say mad things and talk in ways that normal folks simply can't and shouldn't read.

[bradypodidae]

What about the "Dum Dum" bullets from "Who Framed Roger rabbit?"

As long as you didn't confuse them, they'd take out the target, right?

[ShadesFox]

We just get back to the nice things problem. The dum dum bullets are nice things. We can't have nice things. Therefore, we can't have dum dum bullets.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

We can have tea, though. Tea is good.

[Ghostwish]

Oh my, am I late for tea? I just finished cleaning my top hat and everything!

[Gabi]

There's always more tea, so you're never really late.

[ShadesFox]

Yes, it seems an APF was wrong. This place is truely a realm of madness.

[Turnsky]

It left old a while back.  This has redefined stale and given us a brand new perspective on crusty.  It's downright appalling I say!  The facts were given, and then picked over like vultures on with a rotten carcass!  Rotten gobs of slimy gook, slapping and slathering all over the place and drying to the walls in disgusting rivulets!  It'd be enough to drive a person mad were they to read it!

And that, my dear little crumpets, is why you're all here.  It's because you're all mad and this is the place for the mad things.  You say mad things and talk in ways that normal folks simply can't and shouldn't read.

you sound just like sheogorath.

[Ghostwish]

It left old a while back.  This has redefined stale and given us a brand new perspective on crusty.  It's downright appalling I say!  The facts were given, and then picked over like vultures on with a rotten carcass!  Rotten gobs of slimy gook, slapping and slathering all over the place and drying to the walls in disgusting rivulets!  It'd be enough to drive a person mad were they to read it!

And that, my dear little crumpets, is why you're all here.  It's because you're all mad and this is the place for the mad things.  You say mad things and talk in ways that normal folks simply can't and shouldn't read.

you sound just like sheogorath.

Ah, but I do say, my dear sir, I do say that I detect just the slightest trace of Sanguine in his chippy, preposterous nature. Verily.

[Mao]

It left old a while back.  This has redefined stale and given us a brand new perspective on crusty.  It's downright appalling I say!  The facts were given, and then picked over like vultures on with a rotten carcass!  Rotten gobs of slimy gook, slapping and slathering all over the place and drying to the walls in disgusting rivulets!  It'd be enough to drive a person mad were they to read it!

And that, my dear little crumpets, is why you're all here.  It's because you're all mad and this is the place for the mad things.  You say mad things and talk in ways that normal folks simply can't and shouldn't read.

you sound just like sheogorath.

No I don't!  Except when I do.  You wouldn't like it when I do.  Confused yet?  I can see it in your face.  Well, mostly your eyes.  I like your eyes.  I may take them from you when this is all over.

[Tezkat]

Hmm... I've never been down here before. Is my hat on straight? One lump or two? And how is a raven like a writing desk?!?!?

[ShadesFox]

Hmm... I've never been down here before. Is my hat on straight? One lump or two? And how is a raven like a writing desk?!?!?

No, yes, these are both things I've neglected to eat.

[Saphroneth]

Hmm... I've never been down here before. Is my hat on straight? One lump or two? And how is a raven like a writing desk?!?!?

That's supposed to have no answer, but a quick check online found a few attempts:

    Because the notes for which they are noted are not noted for being musical notes. (Puzzle maven Sam Loyd, 1914)
    Because Poe wrote on both. (Loyd again)
    Because there is a B in both and an N in neither. (Get it? Aldous Huxley, 1928)
    Because it slopes with a flap. (Cyril Pearson, undated)

But the real answer, to which the careers of Poe and Carroll bear ample testimony, is that you can baffle the billions with both.

[Les]

*pokes topic notify*  Darn..

Well it's too bad things went this far before I found out this thread was still getting replies, guess I can't rely on topic-notify e-mails for this board anymore (will have words with ISP's spam-filter after this).

The only thing I was still wondering was...  this 'easier to enchant' business.  Mainly (if it was already covered in the swamps of quotes and replies previous I apologize) with it's implications that there are no 'Enchanted' weapons in Furrae as we, D&D loving geeks we are, understand them.

I understand fully the mechanics as-described by Ambarrrrgh for projectile enchantment, but if this is a 'Magic A is Magic A' universe then logically that would mean there are no permanently enchanted swords-axes-pokeybeatystabbydeaththings, so there is no such thing as a 'straight fighter' analog among adventurers if said adventurers ever intend to face something that needs magic to lay a beatdown upon.


On another front, the description of firearms as being commissioned weapons makes me wonder if there is a Furrae equivalent ofHolland & Holland... some reason I keep seeing a Furrae 'Great White Hunter' out stalking the wilderness, and getting stepped on by a Griffon.

...and then, I giggle.  Tee-hee-hee, so many giggles.   

[VAE]

Ah, but don't forget items like Dan's robe that seems to block magic, even rather potent sorts of spells of the red deathray variety.

[Les]

Ah, but don't forget items like Dan's robe that seems to block magic, even rather potent sorts of spells of the red deathray variety.

But then we still run afoul of internal consistency issues.   Dan himself has said he hasn't messed with magic since he busted out two baby-teeth as a child, so how is it's enchantment maintained?  If it is self-sustaining then why wouldn't a quiver of arrows/box of cartridges self-sustain as well if pre-enchanted before loading ad firing?

I'm missing something here, I know it.. but what?

[ShadesFox]

What is missing here is Hodgson's law. It is from a very sage show and one off the great philosophers of our times. It goes something like this:

If you're wondering how Joel eats and breathes
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show,
I should really just relax.'

[Dragon_FoxTS]

Bullets are small and would hard to carve or write spells on if that was needed, and it would effect the aerodynamics.  Also bullets are destroyed on impact. More interesting uses would be tear gas canister launchers, tazzers, bean bag rounds, grappling hook launchers, perimiter flares, net launchers, rock salt. Stuff that would be hard to throw with hand or crossbow. The elderly, infermed, or other wise unable to use a weapon for self defense. Even the loud band would give some second thoughts bout causing trouble and would draw unwanted attention. And living in the country a round a shot is a quick safe way with dealing with snakes, rats, and other large vermin. So there are more practical uses for fire arms than shooting at people. Maybe the few firearms that are made are made for such niche markets. Sorry for the spelling errors and odd ramblings. It's late on a holiday night.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

*pokes topic notify*  Darn..

Well it's too bad things went this far before I found out this thread was still getting replies, guess I can't rely on topic-notify e-mails for this board anymore (will have words with ISP's spam-filter after this).

Topic notify isn't notifying anyone. Nothing to do with your ISP, it's to do with ours; ours got DDoS'd, so mail got switched off. One of these days, we'll get around to fixing it, and then mail will start working again, but until then, all email from the forum is nonfunctional.

And have a nice day, too.

[VAE]

Ah, but don't forget items like Dan's robe that seems to block magic, even rather potent sorts of spells of the red deathray variety.

But then we still run afoul of internal consistency issues.   Dan himself has said he hasn't messed with magic since he busted out two baby-teeth as a child, so how is it's enchantment maintained?  If it is self-sustaining then why wouldn't a quiver of arrows/box of cartridges self-sustain as well if pre-enchanted before loading ad firing?

I'm missing something here, I know it.. but what?

I guess you are missingthat just as a nuclear powerplant isn't an airplane though they apply a lot of the same technology and principles, not all enchantments or magic likely work the same.
It very well could be that a) enchanting something permanently takes a crapload of work and is too expensive to be worth it, when for weapons, manual enchantments are both more versatile and possibly even more powerful (never mind that a weapon , unlike armour , has little need to work when you were knocked out). As ambargh seemed to imply, ones most interested in special grade weapons seem to be either adventurers or creatures, both of which generally have magic basics.
b) Metals just aren't the sort of materials that take well to the kind of magic that's needed to permanently enchant something. Hell, i mean, materials have tons of limits in the real world -  just like you can't , say, weld aluminium with flux-core electrodes, you might not be able to apply this sort of magic to anything hard and tough enough to make a decent weapon from.
c) Similarly to b) it might be simply that the types of spells that you'd want on a projectile can't quite make the cut - especially the sort that can pierce shields. Sure, you might maybe harden it magically, but the local pressure it achieves, and penetration will still be limited by top velocity.
Speaking of that,,, it might be even that the question itself (with respect to this  particular sort of enchantments) would make a trained mage facepaw... sort of like asking "Well ,but can I fire the bullet elsewhere, make it go real fast inside, and then just release it from the gun at someone?". 

[Dragon_FoxTS]

*pokes topic notify*  Darn..

Well it's too bad things went this far before I found out this thread was still getting replies, guess I can't rely on topic-notify e-mails for this board anymore (will have words with ISP's spam-filter after this).

Topic notify isn't notifying anyone. Nothing to do with your ISP, it's to do with ours; ours got DDoS'd, so mail got switched off. One of these days, we'll get around to fixing it, and then mail will start working again, but until then, all email from the forum is nonfunctional.

And have a nice day, too.

Sorry if I had posted into a thread that had closed I had just left the thread open after the previous post I was wondering why the background changed. I haven't use any forms or looked at email in a while and had forgotten about topic-notify e-mails.
off topic sorry
eha email much garbage so fast. It seems everything online requires one and each send out 2 or 3 emails a day. Then there are groups and facebook where every posting goes to your email. Mass deleting in the morning and 50 bounced emails, by dinner because of a full inbox by dinner. And having separate emails for stuff  that might produce lots of garbage means you just have to deal with it in concentrated form. Excuse now while it try to forget about that wasteland known as email.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

The thread hadn't closed. I just thought you might like to know it wasn't your end that was causing email problems, at least in this case. ;-]

[ChaosMageX]

Ah, but don't forget items like Dan's robe that seems to block magic, even rather potent sorts of spells of the red deathray variety.

But then we still run afoul of internal consistency issues.   Dan himself has said he hasn't messed with magic since he busted out two baby-teeth as a child, so how is it's enchantment maintained?  If it is self-sustaining then why wouldn't a quiver of arrows/box of cartridges self-sustain as well if pre-enchanted before loading ad firing?

I'm missing something here, I know it.. but what?

Your question has technically already been answered by the word of goddess:

So, enchantments fade over time and have to be re-applied?
Seems to me that otherwise it'd be simple to enchant the ammunition before loading. And i dont get why it would need to be direct-contact.

Part of it is the aesthetic works better in my head that way.  To me, you enchant an arrow to be full of cold-themed energy as its leaving your bow and touch and thus on impact it shatters into ice.  A bullet on the other hand...I can't help but imagine it would just backfire and explode in the chamber itself due to the pressure impact of trying to fire it.  

The other part is meta-knowledge balancing issues and my own interests.  Adding in modern weaponry complicates things because then it leads to the question of "well why would anyone use swords if people can bust out magcally enchanted  automatic pistols or sniper rifles and shoot their targets from large distances?" and other things.  As I have mentioned, I am not a combat focused person and I don't particularly care for guns.  I didn't want them to be a focus in the comic...so yes...I have deliberately nerfed them to be less effective in this particular universe setting.   They are harder to enchant, they lack the modern developments, and they aren't as effective versus creatures in comparison to magic along with most beings don't engage in as much combat with other beings to warrent large-scale creation.

What I'm guessing is that there probably is a class of permanent or very long lasting enchantments used on things like Dan's robe, but those enchantments aren't the sort that would be used on projectiles.

Like Amber said, it's more about the aesthetics than anything else.

If Dan's robe were to do something fancy like glowing or hardening or some other noticeable reaction to getting hit by spells, then the sort of enchantment put on it would probably need to be actively maintained or re-applied.

Since it hasn't done anything fancy like that as far as we've seen in the comic, we can probably assume that more energy has been put into making its enchantment long-lasting instead of flashy.  It might also be for any of the reasons that VAE listed.  Personally, I'm more inclined to believe reason A, given how valuable Dan's original robe was implied to be, but any of them are feasible.

Given enough time, I could probably come up with additional reasons for why certain enchantments can't be applied to projectiles or can't be made long-lasting, but I don't want to further contribute to the stagnation of this thread.

I'm quite pleased with the answers Amber gave in this thread, not only with an accurate description of the current technology level of fire arms, but also with her facts about the Mer race.  Writing the appearance of such an enigmatic race into my fan-fiction would be both thrilling and disconcerting, and would likely be necessary if my setting involves a port city (if Aclarntaki City doesn't already turn out to be one).  Maybe by the time I get off my lazy butt and continue it, more might be known about the Mer race, and if not, I'll save any port cities and Mer interactions for later.

And that's about all I have left to say for this topic.  Now I'll kick back and enjoy some Earl Grey and other citrus flavored teas.

[Gabi]

When will the remains of that discussion be allowed to rest in peace? >.>

I thought of saying that if Amber made up her own weapons she wouldn't have to worry about portraying them accurately, but seeing how this thread has turned out, I realize that there will always be people ready to nitpick about anything and everything.

[ShadesFox]

We still need to come up with a theory of nice things that prevents the general case of nice things, but still allows tea.