20/11/2011 [DMFA #1265] - Firearms and Drawing Arms

[joshofspam]

I have to say that I'm enjoying the world as such and I definitely like when Fluffy, Amber, or sometimes even when Amber's significant other comes to explain some of the why's and hows that might not be explained in the comic itself.

I like how technology has to find its own niches in this world. Toasters, computers it seems, drinking bird knickknacks. With all the magic in Furrae, it's more surprising that technology could find it's place and at times magic hasn't just got in the way of development...which I guess from the looks of things, it has.

I guess this would make Jyrras Furrae's Thomas Edison or maybe some well known inventor. But you can bet your money on that the creature counsel is still watching him very closely. I bet inventores like him in the past didn't go without a fatal "accident" if they didn't tip toe the line.

[Tezkat]

Part of it is the aesthetic works better in my head that way.  To me, you enchant an arrow to be full of cold-themed energy as its leaving your bow and touch and thus on impact it shatters into ice.  A bullet on the other hand...I can't help but imagine it would just backfire and explode in the chamber itself due to the pressure impact of trying to fire it. 

The other part is meta-knowledge balancing issues and my own interests.  Adding in modern weaponry complicates things because then it leads to the question of "well why would anyone use swords if people can bust out magcally enchanted  automatic pistols or sniper rifles and shoot their targets from large distances?" and other things.  As I have mentioned, I am not a combat focused person and I don't particularly care for guns.  I didn't want them to be a focus in the comic...so yes...I have deliberately nerfed them to be less effective in this particular universe setting.   They are harder to enchant, they lack the modern developments, and they aren't as effective versus creatures in comparison to magic along with most beings don't engage in as much combat with other beings to warrent large-scale creation.

Interesting... Does it have to be the ammunition that's enchanted? How would enchanting a gun be all that different from the challenges of enchanting a bow? Or perhaps more appropriately, a crossbow? With the realtime echantment method you describe, it would seem more reasonable to create the gun/bow as an ammunition enchanting device. After all, you'd want to put the weapon into the hands of a Being. It's not like magic-using Creatures would need them.

Most Creatures are grossly more powerful than Beings in close combat. I'd expect anti-Creature weaponry to develop in the direction of dropping them before they got into slashybitey range...

As an aside, why do Creatures tolerate Adventurer schools? Is being hunted by Beings a popular passtime or something?


I do agree that guns are kind of a silly addition to this sort of sword and sorcery environment. Personal firearms developed historically because of the high ratio of deadliness to training required. After all, you could give a thousand troops a rifle each, show them how to load them and point them at an approaching army, and stuff was gonna die. Proficiency with bows or swords, by contrast, demanded years of training. But it took centuries to develop firearms accurate enough to be useful against a single, fast moving target (like a Creature), and the skill required for that is probably on the same order as mastering the bow or blade.

Do cannons exist in Furrae, though? Waterways must be one of the main ways of transporting goods, especially before trucks and airplanes came along. (I can't imagine legions of Gryphons hauling grain carts... Okay, I can. And they look silly. ) We've already established that gunpowder is known. The historical evolutionary pressures leading to the development of personal firearms don't exist in Furrae, but it seems the need for anti-ship weaponry would still be there.

[Mao]

Tez, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but it sounds like you're trying to find loop holes and go beyond what she has stated.  Something I just asked folks not to do.  Please stop, or I will get stompy.  She has already explained how enchanting the bullets would work and the difficulties involved with it, and has said that at most, old flint lock pistols are what exist.  That's it.

[Tezkat]

Tez, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but it sounds like you're trying to find loop holes and go beyond what she has stated.  Something I just asked folks not to do.  Please stop, or I will get stompy.  She has already explained how enchanting the bullets would work and the difficulties involved with it, and has said that at most, old flint lock pistols are what exist.  That's it.

Sorry if my questions were misunderstood. To be honest, I'm actually not interested in firearms-related answers.

The cannons question actually relates more to ship designs than gunpowder tech, per se. My own eponmymous DMFA-inspired character has a backstory that heavily involves ships and piracy, and I'm curious as to the official word on what that looks like in Furrae. After all, ship designs changed radically after the invention of the cannon.

And I am genuinely curious to know how enchanting ranged weapons works. A lot of us do RP in this world...

[Amber Williams]

The waterways and oceans are the domains of the Mer...the race which doesn't really feature in most of the comic because of the lack of major waterfronts.  It's pretty much their turf.  And much like the creatures who oversee a city, the Mer can be pretty rough to interlopers.  A lot of vessels opt deals with the Mer for safe passage across the water.  Those who don't sail at their own peril.

That said, cannons are probably the last thing pirates would want since those suckers make a bit of noise if I recall and water tends to carry sound well...and the last thing most ships want is to get the Mer's attention.  On the flipside, ships that actually had deals with the Mer in regards to travelling the waters safely would have more interest in cannons. But less as a weapon and more as a sounding device to get the Mer's attention.  By and large if someone was trying to steal via boats, they'd want to aim more for stealth and speed over a full scale assault.

But really, why have a cannon when there is likely a magical device that would work better as a sound beacon. And why use cannons as a weapon when you can cast a lightning bolt across and electrocute people?

[Valynth]

My person quick ref. for gun-lore terminology:

bullet:  originally pronounced (bool-'ley) by it's french inventor (and mispronounced ever since by the English world) this term refers to the conical shape of the lead, designed to improve accuracy and range.

rifling:  Cutting spiraling groves on the inside of the barrel.  Originally it was intended to be used to prevent fouling, but it was quickly discovered that rifling improved accuracy and range.

fouling:  the residue left over by the chemical reaction of gunpowder and can clog the barrel of the gun rendering it extremely dangerous to fire.  Modern powders leave almost no residue so barrel maintenance, though good for accuracy, is generally not necessary in normal use.

Ball:  Term for the bit of lead that is actually fired by the gun.  It has fallen out of favor due to the overwhelming use of the bulleting process, being replaced with the term bullet.

Round:  Originally interchangeable with Ball, it has since come to be a reference to a combination of bullet, cartridge and mercury-based blast cap.

Cartridge:  Refers to anything designed to hold the powder within the gun.  The first cartridges were made of simple cotton cloth wrapped around the powder to speed canon loading.

Firing pin:  In modern firearms this refers to the small piece of metal designed to hit the mercury blast cap with enough force to trigger the reaction.

Mercury blast cap:  an extremely small piece of explosive designed to have just enough power to ignite the powder.  is virtually impossible to trigger without using a firing pin or reasonable analog.

Hammer:  a bit of metal with the firing pin attached, provides the power of the firing pin.

Now that the basics are out of the way, relative damage of a bullet:  unless the person inquestion can withstand DBZ-esque "faster than naked eye can see" speed punches, a bullet will do the job nicely.  Even if someone or something has magic "impenatrable armor," the shear force the bullet has behind it would produce severe bruising and damage.  Even our mordern armors that are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to take a bullet have been unable to prevent this.  Magical negation of this principle would almost require a fae level of magical aptitude, power, and speed.

The more likely event, however, is that something requires certain events or triggers to die, but even these things would STILL be wary of bullets because though it may not kill them, it can knock them down long enough  for those events or triggers to take place.

[Tezkat]

That said, cannons are probably the last thing pirates would want since those suckers make a bit of noise if I recall and water tends to carry sound well...and the last thing most ships want is to get the Mer's attention.  On the flipside, ships that actually had deals with the Mer in regards to travelling the waters safely would have more interest in cannons. But less as a weapon and more as a sounding device to get the Mer's attention.  By and large if someone was trying to steal via boats, they'd want to aim more for stealth and speed over a full scale assault.

Thanks for the clarification! Now I'm picturing the preindustrial sailing craft of Furrae as leaning more towards the late medieval designs geared more towards repelling boarders than anti-ship combat (high sides with heavily fortified fore and after castles, and so on).


It's interesting (and actually somewhat surprising) that wielding enchanted arrows requires actual skill in magic. Would I be correct in assuming that most formally trained Adventurers do have some magical education? There's been some evidence in the comic to infer as much (e.g. comments by Merlitz's buddies and "Cid" suggesting that Adventurers can sense magic), but those guys aren't necessarily a representative sample...

[Mao]

Now that the basics are out of the way, relative damage of a bullet:  unless the person inquestion can withstand DBZ-esque "faster than naked eye can see" speed punches, a bullet will do the job nicely.  Even if someone or something has magic "impenatrable armor," the shear force the bullet has behind it would produce severe bruising and damage.  Even our mordern armors that are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to take a bullet have been unable to prevent this.  Magical negation of this principle would almost require a fae level of magical aptitude, power, and speed.

The more likely event, however, is that something requires certain events or triggers to die, but even these things would STILL be wary of bullets because though it may not kill them, it can knock them down long enough  for those events or triggers to take place.

I'd have to disagree with this a bit.  We've seen a paladin put up a shield against other spells for example that, if it were persistent, would likely stop any incoming bullets.  I don't think this requires Fae level power to do at all, and it is likely why such weapons aren't practical (at least against magic users).  Though I'm not sure that most beings would be able to sustain a shield like that, I don't think it falls to the realm of god-like creatures either.

[Amber Williams]

Just about any race has the ability to learn magic.  The only exceptions were humans and Were when in human form.  Just about everything else though can learn magic. It's more about how -much- magic one is capable of using, some races have a bigger reserve of energy to draw from I guess one could say.  Training can help increase the reserve somewhat, but on average some races have a bit of an edge over others when it comes to natural magic talent.  That said, when it comes to beings one is most likely to see Adventurers using magic.  Not because non-adventurers are incapable of magic, it's just Adventurers tend to use magic and encounter magic-using creatures so their magic is flashier.  Versus say...a hairdresser who uses magic to keep her salon clean and sterile.

That also said, I think I'm done with Q&A for now. The downside to most things is that for every question answered, two more tend to happen. And I'm kind of tired fighting this particular hydra for now.  I hope this has been an informative set of posts.

[Saphroneth]

Since I've recently read a crapton of books about early gunpowder:
The advantage of gunpowder weapons, until the late nineteenth century and the development of breechloader rifles, was NOT their lethality or their range or their cheapness, or anything along those lines.
The reason guns became dominant is that they were a much lesser investment in time. A longbow can kill at a good couple of hundred yards, through plate armour, ten times a minute with aimed shots. But in order to get someone that good with the longbow, they have to spend years - decades - practising.
Guns, on the other hand (especially inaccurate smoothbores) do not require nearly as much investment because muscle mass is relatively irrelevant and so is knowing the intricacies of the weapon.

So a longbow corps. in the Hundred Years War were basically as effective on the battlefield as a number of high-powered machine guns, but they took so long to train that if they were lost, it was an enormous strategic loss. By comparison, in the Thirty Years War most armies replenished their supply of musket and pike troops by grabbing civilians and forcing them into the army - you barely even need training to just blast away. Conversely, the gun is no use (against humans wearing even light armour) at more than about fifty yards as the bullet tumbles and loses too much speed.

In Furrae, with the lifespan of creatures stretching to centuries and the presence of enchantment to make bows and creatures stronger than us puny humans and yew woods can manage (yew bows were spectacular - 300 pound draws are confirmed, 900 is the upper estimate), I can see the Long bow being even more effective for a relatively small time investment on the part of the Creature.

That said, once rifling comes in there'll be one hell of a paradigmal shift. A simple ladder sight and a rifle leaps up to much longer range than the standard longbow.

[Saphroneth]

And as for the ability of magical shields: Well, if a longbow is dangerous, then a bullet is more so unless shields specifically require magic to get through them. An arrow has a piercing point, but a bullet just punches in with sheer force and can do harm through armour that might turn aside an arrow (which is more susceptible to leverage since it is longer).

[Tezkat]

That also said, I think I'm done with Q&A for now. The downside to most things is that for every question answered, two more tend to happen. And I'm kind of tired fighting this particular hydra for now.  I hope this has been an informative set of posts.

It's very appreciated. You know that the geeky fanboys here love any opportunity to glean a little more insight into your world.

That said, once rifling comes in there'll be one hell of a paradigmal shift. A simple ladder sight and a rifle leaps up to much longer range than the standard longbow.

To be honest, I'm surprised that firearms technology in Furrae has even reached the flintlock era. Barring imports from alternate universes, that implies that Beings found the more primitive forms (matchlock weapons, or for that matter simpler hand cannons) useful enough to continue developing. Given the lack of Being vs Being conflict on the scales that would make primitive firearms practical, that doesn't seem all that likely. It would however be cool to see gunpowder treated as just another alchemical product--black powder grenades, recreational fireworks, and the like...

The danger that someone like a Jyrras represents is that Furrae already has the industrial capacity to produce (even mass produce) rather advanced firearms, skipping a lot of the stages that were limited by smithing technology. Factories that machine car parts and airplanes could easily be retooled for making assault rifles, if only it occured to someone to invent such a wild and crazy device... (for farming purposes, of course )

[Mao]

I understand the mechanics and physics of a bullet and an arrow, thanks.  I find it quite likely that, given the flexibility of magic, a shield against projectiles (this includes bullets) would be quite possible.  Initially  it might not be the most common thing, but it wouldn't take the creatures and/or magic users long to figure it out.  Let's not forget the thought based shapeshifting of cubi (there's those dbz shields that were mentioned, though if they knew in advance what a gun was...) or the inherent diamond hard skin of Demons.

Sure, against your average being or unaware creature, the bullet (given that these are flintlock style pistols) at mid to close range is more dangerous.  The arrow gains back it's advantage against creatures and magic able beings though in that it can be enchanted easily which may be what is needed to defeat those shields (magic vs. magic and what not).

[Sofox]

I'm not actually one for guns very much.  Don't really care for them except as a plot device, or for their utility in video games.

Using a magnum to take out security cameras?

[Alondro]

And as for the ability of magical shields: Well, if a longbow is dangerous, then a bullet is more so unless shields specifically require magic to get through them. An arrow has a piercing point, but a bullet just punches in with sheer force and can do harm through armour that might turn aside an arrow (which is more susceptible to leverage since it is longer).

The slow bullet penetrates the shield...

(Fear is the little death.)

[Saphroneth]

I think it's entirely possible that development up to muskets (which I assume is what is being meant; you can have a flintlock hand cannon or a wheel lock rifle if you want, as the "lock" is the firing mechanism) came about because of the utility for, say, siege, signals or especially hunting.
Someone who knows their musket well can get more range out of it than normal, and a match/wheel lock to flintlock transition would be an example of one hunters would be likely to make (no betraying smoke; more reliable). And hunting with a black powder weapon permits a much smaller individual with less strength to get the same amount of impact behind the shot - mice, for instance? - whereas they'd be hard pressed to do the same with a bow.
In a similar vein, pistols were used for centuries as one-shot melee weapons (especially by cavalrymen) - basically, the gun can't do much damage or hit the broad side of a barn at any range, but if you shove it right up close to someone while they're busy holding off your sword, you can get some use from it. This is another "niche" avenue through which firearms have time to develop into flintlocks.
Matchlocks, I think, lasted longer at sea than on land because of the impossibility of firing a pre-loaded gun without the slow match lit. But that doesn't matter except in terms of signallers.
Though now I wonder. The main design pressure that led to the development of the galleon on Earth was the need for an effective gun platform (as opposed to the galleass, say). I wonder if Furrae naval technology just skipped the Age of Sail - and for that matter what the hell their naval ships look like now!

[Mao]

I can now more fully understand why she didn't want to bring them into the comic at all.  She so much as stated what was available and now everyone else is trying to argue what else therefore should be available and argue why they should be more prominent.

[Saphroneth]

All I've done is talk about the cultural implications of it, and come up with explanations as to why they have the place they do (that is, not having turned up - hunting, signalling, pistols and siege are all areas that aren't looked into, and fair enough.).
It's an interesting topic, as is the development of firearms in general - the firearm is, broadly speaking, why Western culture was dominant for the period that it was, and the idea of a society with very little in the way of guns but otherwise a normal setting is a good contrast to our own.

[VAE]

I can now more fully understand why she didn't want to bring them into the comic at all.  She so much as stated what was available and now everyone else is trying to argue what else therefore should be available and argue why they should be more prominent.

I fail to see how that's different from any other topic that has revealed this much of the workings of the setting's society - i remember other long threads, on more trivial topics.
Especially given that a rather easier (due to at least being the same species, never mind same physics)  variant of this particular topic - looking at a limited known set of facts about a bunch of people, and then trying to infer more about how they lived based on that information is what keeps a truckload of academicians employed.

[Mao]

If you feel academic for picking apart a fantasy story, which has a force (the writer) who can, and has stated *exactly* how things are and went... then I have no words for you.

[VAE]

If you feel academic for picking a part a fantasy story, which has a force (the writer) who can, and has stated *exactly* how things are and went... then I have no words for you.

I don't, thank you very much.
My point was that doing it isn't exactly a failed endeavour, since it has worked in similar circumstances before, and worked well.

[Viking ZX]

I might as well throw in my two cents 

As far as yet another reason guns could be a little less then useful in a magic setting, magic doesn't obey laws and rules as we here in our little universe understand. So a far as to the comments earlier regarding magical shields, well, if I was going to make a magical barrier to defend myself against any sort of ranged missile (be it arrow, rock or thrown puppies) I'd want a barrier that either absorbed kinetic energy entirely and redirected it (either into another form of energy or into a ground) or reflected it back into the object in question (so said shield absorbs the initial impact, then reflects 100% of the absorbed impact back into the object). In the event that such a barrier was a common one, cheaper, less manufactured projectiles would go a lot farther (especially in a Private adventuring setting). This is not an any way intended to be how DMFA's magic works, it's just a thought for how magic of a form could work to make guns useless.

Personally, I like the answer we've gotten, it makes a lot of sense, especially given the cultural and social structure we've seen thus far in the comic. Great job Amber!

[Dragon_FoxTS]

It's not surprising guns never develop in a world of magic. From what i have read and seen about early guns, they were extremely inaccurate, dirty, and loud. They were all hand made and took a skilled craftsmen, and even then each gun could vary greatly. An accurate guns was treated as a treasure, but there was no guarantee how long it would remain accurate. Not to mention if the barrel become fouled or the metal is not strong enough it could blow up in your face. Also no standard barrel and ammo size.
As for what the gun looks like it's a different world with a variety of different beings idea of design. A tube, explosive powder, a projectile, and a method of setting it off is all you need. How it's put together is something people have been messing around with for a while. Some people make a living finding new ways to reinvent the wheel.

[mithril]

My person quick ref. for gun-lore terminology:

bullet:  originally pronounced (bool-'ley) by it's french inventor (and mispronounced ever since by the English world) this term refers to the conical shape of the lead, designed to improve accuracy and range.

actually the term bullet dates back as far as roman times, and was pronounced then more or less the same as it is today. the proper term for a conical bullet, with is based on the name of the french inventor and is always mis pronounced by the public, is the Minié ball. which is pronounced 'min-ay'


the original roman 'bullet' was a term for roughly spherical or ovoid lead projectiles used as sling ammunition by their local auxilaries. the term continued in use throughout the middle ages, as nearly all European and middle eastern nations employed sling formations based on the roman standard. when the early 'handgonnes' were deployed on medieval battlefeilds these small lead projectiles were used as projectiles for them as well, giving us the origin of the term bullet in reference to firearms. ('handgonnes' were little more than a metal pipe with powder and projectile, affixed to a long stick. braced on wals, trees, or on the ground with the stick tucked under one arm, they would be fired by touching a lit peice of rope or match to a touchhole. the first handgonnes fired modified crossbow bolts, but these proved to unweildy and bulky)

rifling:  Cutting spiraling groves on the inside of the barrel.  Originally it was intended to be used to prevent fouling, but it was quickly discovered that rifling improved accuracy and range.

actually rifling was invented purely for imparting spin on the projectile, back in the 15th century. the matchlocks of the time were not made with precise tolerances, and while round and bore sizes were standardized, the lack of precision tools meant that there were often wide gaps between bore size and the round inside it, causing the round to bounce around the barrel slightly when fired. this made the weapons highly inaccurate. Rifling allowed slightly larger than boresize rounds to be employed, and also ensured a tight fit when firing, reducing the loss of gas pressure and imparting spin, resulting in more accurate weapons. it remained a rare specialists feature (used mainly in hunting weapons), due to the fact that to load a rifled weapon with a normal spherical bullet (a "ball" in the terminology of the time), you had to push the round down the barrel while the ball was engaged in the grooves..a process that could take upwards of a minute or more per shot, depending on arm strength and barrel length.

the invention of the Minié ball in the 19th century allowed rifled muskets to become commonplace, as a Minié ball's conical shape and hollow base allowed the round to be smaller than the bore of the weapon, allowing rapid loading, but when fired the base expands to engage the rifling. the conical shape also tended to tumble less in flight, increasing accuracy further.

Mercury blast cap:  an extremely small piece of explosive designe to have just enough power to ignite the powder.  is virtually impossible to trigger without using a firing pin or reasonable analog.

technically this is referred to as the primer, or percussion cap. in most modern weapons this is a small copper pan filled with a impact sensitive explosive. older weapons used Fulminate of Mercury, a coumpound comprised of mercury disolved in nitric acid and ethanol. it is a whitish crystaline powder.
some of the earliest primers used potassium chlorate instead, which is a similar impact explosive. however potassium chlorate is mildly corrosive, which made long term storage of ammunition difficult.
while modern primers use a small metal pan on the casing struck by the firing pin, older weapons had a number of alternative designs. popular for a while during the 19th century were "pinfire" rifles, which used a nitrated cotton casing around the powder, and the primer glued to the base of the Minié ball. the round would be loaded into the breech, and when fired the long thin firing pin would peirce the fabric casing and the powder, striking the primer. these were effectively the first 'caseless' ammunition weapons. they proved difficult to use militarily however because the cotton casing would often not be fully burned up, which could cause explosions if care was not taken apon reloading.
the american civil war saw many smoothbore flintlock muskets retooled into rifled percussion cap weapons in an effort to equip both armies quickly. most merely replaced the flint on the side mounted hammer with a flat surface, and the pan that held loose powder with a 'nipple' which a persussion cap was placed over. pulling the trigger would cause the hammer to smash the cap down onto the nipple, setting off the primer, the explosion of which was funneled down a short tube into the breech of the weapon, igniting the black powder. this form of muzzleloader, in more modern construction, continues to be used for sport shooting and hunting to this day.
another, less common conversion used a primer sandwiched between two strips of paper glued together. instead of a nipple and cap set up, the pan was replaced by a box holding a spool of this paper, which was held in place over the tube to the breech. when the trigger was pulled, the hammer came down and hit the dot of primer. the resulting explosion was channeled into the weapon through the tube. this method reduced the need to replace the percussion cap with every firing (most had a simple mechanism by which the paper was advanced to a fresh dot of primer when the hammer was recocked), but the paper strips were more susceptable to the elements and could be set off by poor handling. most of these weapons were converted to percussion cap based systems by the end of the war. however this concept lives on today with weaker explosives optimised for making noise, in the form of noisemaking toy pistols.



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honestly i prefer the lack of firearms in DMFA. rather like the Final fantasy settings, the technology that exists can be highly advanced, but only to allow the telling of the type of stories that the author wants to tell. in the Final Fantasy settings, firearms are not a common item, and are fairly limited. yet the same settings have flying airships, robots, and other high technology tropes. the entire point of not having firearms, or having firearms develop at a slower rate than other technology, is to avoid the problem of the 'arms race' we see in real life. firearms being to ubiquitous means that. to a degree, much of the 'epic' nature of the struggle in the stories vanishes. when you can just shoot dark pegasus from two miles away with a Barrett Model 82A1 with 30x starlightscope firing full metal jacked ammunition....the whole "quest to defeat dark pegasus" becomes far more mundane.

[Valynth]

I'd have to disagree with this a bit.  We've seen a paladin put up a shield against other spells for example that, if it were persistent, would likely stop any incoming bullets.  I don't think this requires Fae level power to do at all, and it is likely why such weapons aren't practical (at least against magic users).  Though I'm not sure that most beings would be able to sustain a shield like that, I don't think it falls to the realm of god-like creatures either.

Firstly, spells are vastly different from bullets. They can have a variety of rules that they run on.  In some fiction, for example, a simple circle of salt on the ground will negate even the most powerful spells or hexes.

Bullets on the other hand, are a manipulation of the currently existing laws of physics and if you combine that with the forces of a bullet, especially when fired from a modern gun, it would require a large amount of reality negation in order to prevent damage.  Not only that, but you have to invest power to maintain such a shield with each hit sapping vast amounts of power prolonged exposure would result in a inability to maintain the shield.  Plus as it seems in the comic most of those entities powerful enough to cast the shield might not recognize the gun as a dangerous weapon, or even they do have a shield up might not invest enough power to fully negate a hit.

[joshofspam]

All things considered.

Do you think DP gives a very rare laugh when some adventurer pulls out the ever so rare gun on him?

[VAE]

I'd have to disagree with this a bit.  We've seen a paladin put up a shield against other spells for example that, if it were persistent, would likely stop any incoming bullets.  I don't think this requires Fae level power to do at all, and it is likely why such weapons aren't practical (at least against magic users).  Though I'm not sure that most beings would be able to sustain a shield like that, I don't think it falls to the realm of god-like creatures either.

Firstly, spells are vastly different from bullets. They can have a variety of rules that they run on.  In some fiction, for example, a simple circle of salt on the ground will negate even the most powerful spells or hexes.

Bullets on the other hand, are a manipulation of the currently existing laws of physics and if you combine that with the forces of a bullet, especially when fired from a modern gun, it would require a large amount of reality negation in order to prevent damage.  Not only that, but you have to invest power to maintain such a shield with each hit sapping vast amounts of power prolonged exposure would result in a inability to maintain the shield.  Plus as it seems in the comic most of those entities powerful enough to cast the shield might not recognize the gun as a dangerous weapon, or even they do have a shield up might not invest enough power to fully negate a hit.

Ugh.
Yes, spells are vastly different from bullets, thing is , you can't infer from that how the bloody hell they work.
Say, you got  a shield up that prevents physical contact but allows you to move, right?
Fine , I use a telekinesis spell to move you, and a portion of the enviroment (so it's indirect) and make you shake-shake-a-shake it fast enough so that your insides take damage. A great way to deal with stone skin too, and one that conventional weapons can't really emulate that well.

On the other hand... bullets. Hard to stop one, right?
Except that the main problem is speed, really - you need to react fast enough. One fun thing is that you don't even need to stop one, it's enough to deflect it. And then , we come to the really fun possibilities.
Teleport it elsewhere? Disintegrate it? (matter creation isn't hard.. how hard is matter destruction) Warp space in such a way that the vector of its motion wraps around you?
As long as we don't know more about magic it's hard to tell.

[Viking ZX]

I'd have to disagree with this a bit.  We've seen a paladin put up a shield against other spells for example that, if it were persistent, would likely stop any incoming bullets.  I don't think this requires Fae level power to do at all, and it is likely why such weapons aren't practical (at least against magic users).  Though I'm not sure that most beings would be able to sustain a shield like that, I don't think it falls to the realm of god-like creatures either.

Firstly, spells are vastly different from bullets. They can have a variety of rules that they run on.  In some fiction, for example, a simple circle of salt on the ground will negate even the most powerful spells or hexes.

Bullets on the other hand, are a manipulation of the currently existing laws of physics and if you combine that with the forces of a bullet, especially when fired from a modern gun, it would require a large amount of reality negation in order to prevent damage.  Not only that, but you have to invest power to maintain such a shield with each hit sapping vast amounts of power prolonged exposure would result in a inability to maintain the shield.  Plus as it seems in the comic most of those entities powerful enough to cast the shield might not recognize the gun as a dangerous weapon, or even they do have a shield up might not invest enough power to fully negate a hit.

Ugh.
Yes, spells are vastly different from bullets, thing is , you can't infer from that how the bloody hell they work.
Say, you got  a shield up that prevents physical contact but allows you to move, right?
Fine , I use a telekinesis spell to move you, and a portion of the enviroment (so it's indirect) and make you shake-shake-a-shake it fast enough so that your insides take damage. A great way to deal with stone skin too, and one that conventional weapons can't really emulate that well.

On the other hand... bullets. Hard to stop one, right?
Except that the main problem is speed, really - you need to react fast enough. One fun thing is that you don't even need to stop one, it's enough to deflect it. And then , we come to the really fun possibilities.
Teleport it elsewhere? Disintegrate it? (matter creation isn't hard.. how hard is matter destruction) Warp space in such a way that the vector of its motion wraps around you?
As long as we don't know more about magic it's hard to tell.

Exactly my point earlier. Some are assuming that the laws of magic follow laws of physics that we are familiar with. Point is, they don't have to. Hence the idea that a barrier could simply reflect kinetic energy with a near 100% rate, making any bullet completely useless. Magic by nature in any sort of fictional setting is a universal law unto itself. Simply assuming that application of a physical law trumps magical law is bound to result in famous last words.

[VAE]

Exactly my point earlier. Some are assuming that the laws of magic follow laws of physics that we are familiar with. Point is, they don't have to. Hence the idea that a barrier could simply reflect kinetic energy with a near 100% rate, making any bullet completely useless. Magic by nature in any sort of fictional setting is a universal law unto itself. Simply assuming that application of a physical law trumps magical law is bound to result in famous last words.

Just to clarify.
The magic, most likely, FOLLOWS from what you'd call physical law in that universe. Awesome != unphysical or cheating somehow.. look at how many modern things would probably cause an inquisitor to burn you at stake for witchcraft.

[Wurgel]

Then lets rant a bit too.

We know from Jyrra's, that magic is more difficult to apply to items, the less magic was going into its creation.

Taking, that a lot of creatures use magic for defense (magic empowered defense and shildspells) partially combined with their physical bodies.

Magical shielding would therefore prevent penetrating from magic attacks (at least to a special point) duo its resilience to magic affects. (Dans robe for example wouldn't let magic effect it that easy when its made with high magical percentage in its creation. But Dan gets still blown away by the "physical" force of high power spells [DPs Attack] )

On the other hand physical projectiles that can easily be affected by magic, can therefore easily deflected/redirected by defensive magic.

That is the point, where enchantments enter the math. The enchantments empower objects with magic, that would increase the magical percentage of the item and make it less affected by other magic. Shielding would maybe block the magical effect of the enchantment (like pure magical attacks) but wouldn't be that effective at blocking the physical attack. (not being affected by magic = no magical blocking/redirecting)

Taking in account that enchantments ain't persistent and need the magical power of its user (i understand magical enchanted weapons as prepared with the enchantment that only needs to tap into its user magical power to activate, if there are "permanently" enchanted weapons) there would be 4 possible bullets for guns.

"normal" bullets: easily magical affected and therefore easy to block per magic -> not really useful against most creatures.

enchanted normal bullets: should be able to penetrate magical defense, but are a bit unpractical. Each bulled has to be loaded manually to enchant it before the shot. The user wouldn't even have a lot of time to aim, based on the durability of enchantments cut of of their powersource. (not to mention Amber's detonation in the barrel)

Fully magical created: they would pretty much ignore magical defense but aren't that easy to create. On top of that the creator shouldn't need guns for defense.

Fully natural created: Jy is still working on a precess to reach this state, but they would be able to penetrate magical defense like fully magical (http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1174.php). From my point of view, that would be the first step for a real evolution of the guns in Furrae. Why make better guns, when the bullets still wont get past simple defensive spells?

The other reason i see in not developing better guns: At this point, they are pretty useless. They take long to load, are inaccurate, "immobile" (try to load them while moving) and don't have the needed power to take out bigger creatures with 1 shot, even if the bullet penetrates the shielding. (I wanna see a being 1-shotting a dragon or the dragon giving the being the time to enchant a new bullet and load it into the gun)

Arrows on the other hand are able to be enchanted WHILE aiming, inflict bigger wounds, are faster to fire repeatedly, more accurate (with training) and theoretical "reload and fireable" at moving (even at the cost of accuracy)