20/11/2011 [DMFA #1265] - Firearms and Drawing Arms

[ChaosMageX]

This QfR has me wondering how far traditional explosion driven firearms have progressed.  Are they at the level of cannons?  Muskets?  The first hand-held pistols (like those popularized in Westerns)?  I'd personally prefer the latter.

Also, if creatures tend to shrug off damage from non-enchanted weaponry, then surely there's at least one adventurer out there who's gotten the bright idea to enchant bullets.

It also makes me wonder if there are magically driven projectile weapons.  Who knows?
There could be a magical equivalent of a Gauss Gun that could fire enchanted bullets much faster than even the most powerful traditional guns.
There could be specialty bullets that change trajectory in mid-air, seeking out specific targets, or just simply staying in the air longer to increase sniper range.
They could have specific curses put on them to create all sorts of nasty effects on impact that go well beyond the damage an ordinary bullet could do.
There are so many possibilities when it comes to combining magic and projectile weapons.

But I digress, I definitely see Amber's point in firearms often causing a lot of criticism.  After all, there was an entire lengthy discussion started over one little bullet that was drawn improperly in Project Future.  That certainly proves that there are people on this forum that know a heck of a lot more about firearms than Amber probably does.

EDIT: And now I have a question for any artists who have drawn guns before:

If you're trying to draw a specific model of gun, should you mention the model?  If you do, people will inevitably point out how your gun and the way its being operated doesn't match that model.  But if you don't, would people start arguing over their guesses of which model you tried to draw?

[VAE]

Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful.

[psilorder]

Hmm, makes me wonder about grenade launchers.
How would the creatures react to a grenade in the gut or the face? (or for that matter several)

Seems to me grenade launchers would be more popular in a world with tough creatures.
Instead of shrinking down to rifles the canons would have stopped as grenade launchers/portable canons.

[Madmann135]

I know that there are firearm enthusiast in the audience as I am one of them.  
My advice is look for references.  If you want bullets then look at a bullet manufacturer, Hornady has a tendency to show pictures of the bullets they make as well as live ammunition they load.
Gunbroker is a firearm auction sight, most auctions have pictures (a lot of pictures) so that should be helpful.
Interestingly enough these sources also require you to have an idea what you are looking for, when in doubt Google it.

I can understand why many people do not know about firearms, the media tries to use firearms as a scape goat for society's problems, as a result firearms are misrepresented.

[BabylonRanger]

On a different note, chapter 30 is two chapters away!   


I think MacGyver is shaking his head somewhere.

[Drayco84]

Hmm, makes me wonder about grenade launchers.
How would the creatures react to a grenade in the gut or the face? (or for that matter several)

Seems to me grenade launchers would be more popular in a world with tough creatures.
Instead of shrinking down to rifles the canons would have stopped as grenade launchers/portable canons.

Two words, Collateral Damage. (See Also: Using Fireball on both your teammates and the targets in D&D. Expand that to EVERYTHING in the radius.)

Oddly enough, Amber's points ARE valid. I've noticed that SOMEHOW, guns are a "geek" thing. (Then again, there's also a fair amount of geeks in the military... I can name three four in the IRC off the top of my head... Basilisk, Ghostwish, RAM, and Railock...)

In addition to that, there's a MAJOR can of worms that would be opened, ratings-wise. You see, guns are considered by many to be the EPITOME of a symbol of violence, but let me dive into the psychology a bit...

In Western culture, guns are an EMPOWERMENT. (CULTURE, guys. CULTURE.) See all those western FPS games with one lone guy and his arsenal of "I'm HONESTLY not overcompensating for something." weapons? Or the movies where the action hero grabs a gun and all of a sudden he's a badass? Yeah, it's a belief that such an object empowers a person.

In Eastern culture, however... Weapons are a TOOL. The man behind them is the one in control and uses them to complete a task. (Granted, it's usually killing somebody, but that's the whole reason why ALL weapons exist, to KILL things.)

To be absolutely brutal though... Medieval weapons were designed to rip MASSIVE holes in people. Guns simply propel a small piece of hot metal at sub-sonic or supersonic speeds through a target and rip through everything in it's path. In terms of gore IRL, the medieval weapons are going to beat MOST guns every time in terms of volumes of gore. Yet, they're a Kid-Friendly(TM) weapon.

So, really... What the heck? Yes, I'm ranting nonsensically. it's 2am and my brain has left the premises.

[Inumo]

Also, if creatures tend to shrug off damage from non-enchanted weaponry, then surely there's at least one adventurer out there who's gotten the bright idea to enchant bullets.

Sorry I can't say much about the rest of your post, but I can at least comment on this. Assuming enchanting has some sort of cost, enchanting individual bullets would be rather expensive unless the guns were accurate and the adventurer using the gun was good at using it. Otherwise, since you can't recover enchanted bullets as easily and as often as enchanted arrows, each miss would likely be a decent amount of money wasted.

[Les]

Well, I am sort of a 'Gun Geek' so if anyone has any questions I could try my best to answer.

I don't know about 'empowerment'.. I guess that could be it.  The saying goes, "God made men, Sam Colt made them equal."  I don't know about tools but that may be true in Eastern depictions of medival weapons, but my only experience with guns depicted in eastern cultural contexts (when they weren't simply aping hollywood) has been as something that is equated with 'cheating'.  Someone who has a gun and a week's worth of training is just as deadly as a martial artist who's been training his whole life.

Me, I geek out about guns the way gear heads geek out about cars.  I'm fascinated by how they work, their form and function, and I occasionally go out shooting with them (though rarely, that gets to be an expensive hobby quite quickly.  There's just as much high-end engineering in a modern gun as there is in an airplane, so many people seem to forget that.

[Tapewolf]

Oddly enough, Amber's points ARE valid. I've noticed that SOMEHOW, guns are a "geek" thing. (Then again, there's also a fair amount of geeks in the military... I can name three four in the IRC off the top of my head... Basilisk, Ghostwish, RAM, and Railock...)

Are you thinking of Brady there?  Bas is actually a medical student (though he likes his guns too).  IIRC Brady is an ex-marine.

[ChaosMageX]

Oddly enough, Amber's points ARE valid. I've noticed that SOMEHOW, guns are a "geek" thing. (Then again, there's also a fair amount of geeks in the military... I can name three four in the IRC off the top of my head... Basilisk, Ghostwish, RAM, and Railock...)

This begs the question of which is more a thrilling timed geek hobby, solving a rubix cube or assembling a gun?

Also, if creatures tend to shrug off damage from non-enchanted weaponry, then surely there's at least one adventurer out there who's gotten the bright idea to enchant bullets.

Sorry I can't say much about the rest of your post, but I can at least comment on this. Assuming enchanting has some sort of cost, enchanting individual bullets would be rather expensive unless the guns were accurate and the adventurer using the gun was good at using it. Otherwise, since you can't recover enchanted bullets as easily and as often as enchanted arrows, each miss would likely be a decent amount of money wasted.

Yes, that is a valid point that you make and I completely agree with it.  Assuming enchantments can't be easily mass-produced (assembly line wizards, anyone? ), then in the long run a reusable enchanted weapon like the arrows you mention or a sword or any other handheld weapon would eventually pay for itself while an adventurer who uses a gun would have to keep procuring more ammunition.

Still, when has the expense of ammunition stopped gun enthusiasts before?  If an adventurer is a skilled marksman and an avid gun enthusiast, that certainly won't stop them.  There are probably several customization options for bullets that would be just as expensive, if not more so, than enchanting.  I'm definitely not a "gun geek", but if I had to guess a few they'd be uranium tips, specialized cartridges and, custom propellant mixtures, some likely containing ammonium nitrate.  I might be wrong about the cost of some of those, but honestly there have to at least some expensive ammunition customization options out there.

And for as many natural bullet modifications, there are probably ten times as many types of enchantments that can be cast on them.  There's probably an enchantment for just about anything you can think of.  For instance, the bullet from Project Future I mentioned was specifically enchanted to capture and contain the soul of whoever was shot with it.

Just think of how useful these sorts of enchantments could be.  A professional sniper could cast a spell on someone from miles away and might never be found.  It's a lot harder to find the source of a tiny fast moving bullet than it is to find the source of the typical cumbersome, glorified light beams that accompany most ranged spells.

[Tapewolf]

I'm not actually one for guns very much.  Don't really care for them except as a plot device, or for their utility in video games.  That said, and speaking strictly in the abstract, the idea of fishing for Mer with grenades does have a certain, perverse appeal to it.  It's the sort of thing I'd try to do in Deus Ex.

[bradley535]

I don't post often, so it's easy to remember what I do. I remember my second post ever; from DMFA #1026...

"One day a creature will hurt Jyras, probably by hurting someone Jyras loves. When that day comes destruction will follow. Even then, Jyras will probably mean well when he introduces his technology to the general populous of beings. He will want them to be able to defend themselves. But suddenly, a once frightened and bullied race will have the means to exact revenge...

I just hope that it doesn't happen too soon. I like the innocence that this story portrays so far."

I don't think that I was the only one to see this coming. Hopefully, we're on chapter 2.

[Barhandar]

Guys that talk about firearms tend to forget about three things. That is, slings, bows and crossbows.

Yes, in a magical world you tend to not need firearms, gunpowder and such, because magic is easier and faster. However, non-gunpowder ranged weapons can be quite everywhere, especially for assassinations - they are silent, ammunition is relatively easy to come by, and modern real-world compound bows pack hefty punch. Slings tended to pack a punch ever since they were invented - remember Goliath - and they need almost no resources to make, with ammunition (rocks) being literally everywhere.

And for non-gun powder you have explosives, which are handy for demolution, mining, and fireworks.

P.S. And yes, blame me for all spelling and grammar errors in that text up here.

[VAE]

I'm not actually one for guns very much.  Don't really care for them except as a plot device, or for their utility in video games.  That said, and speaking strictly in the abstract, the idea of fishing for Mer with grenades does have a certain, perverse appeal to it.  It's the sort of thing I'd try to do in Deus Ex.

Well, better than trying to fish with an electric aggregate , then forget to turn it off like that russian guy who got a Darwin award.
As an aside, I guess even you'll agree that the (theoretically, it's bloody expensive) idea of an ursine being operating a mitrailleuse holding it in his hands is, for the lack of a better word , rather awesome. (Part of DnDMFA ruleset, oldie guns, that this comic has essentially blessed into actual use. Hence my excitement when this was posted)

To be absolutely brutal though... Medieval weapons were designed to rip MASSIVE holes in people. Guns simply propel a small piece of hot metal at sub-sonic or supersonic speeds through a target and rip through everything in it's path. In terms of gore IRL, the medieval weapons are going to beat MOST guns every time in terms of volumes of gore. Yet, they're a Kid-Friendly(TM) weapon.

So, really... What the heck? Yes, I'm ranting nonsensically. it's 2am and my brain has left the premises.

Um, Drayco... A gun wound is at least as messy if not more so than an arrow one. Close up it's even worse. Plus, stuff like hydrostatic shock that no other weapons have. Also, close up weapons such as blunderbuss, which was essentially used to fire a pawful of random shit (pebbles, chopped lead , nails) at widening close range, kinda like a nasty shotgun. 
And don't even get me started on cannons...
A slovak hist. fantasy (the book was from the time of A-H empire fighting the Turks)  author I was reading a few books from was rather apt at describing the mess gunpowder weapons make... pity I don't have it at hand for quoting.

[Amber Williams]

Generally speaking one of the mechanics I do have set in place when it comes to enchanting is one needs a hands-on approach to things. It's easier to enchant an arrow because you are physically touching the arrow just before you fire it. Bullets...not so much.  And it doesn't really enchant well through another material such as the gun itself.  Swords enchant really well because you are holding them directly.    It's one of the major drawbacks I set in place for guns in that they are pretty much too difficult to enchant the ammunition due to the gun itself getting in the way.

Usually my approach to a lot of the things in DMFA is "is there a magical alternative that would likely be cheaper and easier to use?" and if there is, it means the non-magical version is usually a novelty moreso than anything.  And while I'm sure there is a way to enchant a gun so that it could conduct magic better...at that point it becomes so far removed from the initial purpose and becomes magically dependant the time/energy/effort outweighs the benefit to the average individual...and thus it becomes another novelty thing. 

[VAE]

Generally speaking one of the mechanics I do have set in place when it comes to enchanting is one needs a hands-on approach to things. It's easier to enchant an arrow because you are physically touching the arrow just before you fire it. Bullets...not so much.  And it doesn't really enchant well through another material such as the gun itself.  Swords enchant really well because you are holding them directly.    It's one of the major drawbacks I set in place for guns in that they are pretty much too difficult to enchant the ammunition due to the gun itself getting in the way.

Usually my approach to a lot of the things in DMFA is "is there a magical alternative that would likely be cheaper and easier to use?" and if there is, it means the non-magical version is usually a novelty moreso than anything.  And while I'm sure there is a way to enchant a gun so that it could conduct magic better...at that point it becomes so far removed from the initial purpose and becomes magically dependant the time/energy/effort outweighs the benefit to the average individual...and thus it becomes another novelty thing. 

The interesting bit is, cheaper and easier for whom. After all, I think it's well estabilished creatures are a rather small proportion of the overall population of Furrae.. in other words, most conflict, especially military  , would be being to being mainly.
Well.. I kinda imagine it like Warcraft III was - a bunch of creatures that can kill almost anything by themselves, and have to be taken down by focused fire, among hundreds of beings soldiers.
Never mind regular conflicts - if you meet brigands in a forest, they are most likely to be beings.
Now, guns aren't that hard  to make, and the thing that has to be factored in is, whether it's easier to teach an average being to enchant well enough to find a bow more useful than a simple gun design. Also , producing ammunition via magic means would likely be a viable economic path.

[justacritic]

Guys that talk about firearms tend to forget about three things. That is, slings, bows and crossbows.

Yes, in a magical world you tend to not need firearms, gunpowder and such, because magic is easier and faster. However, non-gunpowder ranged weapons can be quite everywhere, especially for assassinations - they are silent, ammunition is relatively easy to come by, and modern real-world compound bows pack hefty punch. Slings tended to pack a punch ever since they were invented - remember Goliath - and they need almost no resources to make, with ammunition (rocks) being literally everywhere.

And yet these things rely mostly on one's own power to use. A gun utilizes power from outside your own body. So in a sense it's power that is "free" in that one uses none of one's own energy resources. Relatively free power is more or less addictive, after all when it's possible to hurt or kill something with minimal effort on your own, that sort of power tends to go to one's head. That or maybe I'm reading too much satire before bed.

[Amber Williams]

The interesting bit is, cheaper and easier for whom. After all, I think it's well estabilished creatures are a rather small proportion of the overall population of Furrae.. in other words, most conflict, especially military  , would be being to being mainly.
Well.. I kinda imagine it like Warcraft III was - a bunch of creatures that can kill almost anything by themselves, and have to be taken down by focused fire, among hundreds of beings soldiers.
Never mind regular conflicts - if you meet brigands in a forest, they are most likely to be beings.
Now, guns aren't that hard  to make, and the thing that has to be factored in is, whether it's easier to teach an average being to enchant well enough to find a bow more useful than a simple gun design. Also , producing ammunition via magic means would likely be a viable economic path.

That implies that most creatures are the type who are going to simply sit idle and let a being run military establish.  There is a reason a lot of creatures opt to run cities rather than simply destroy them.

I should point out (cause I forgot to mention earlier and in the comic) that gun technology is at this time on par with flintlock pistols and the weaponry of that era save for one or two exceptions. (Not so spoiler alert: Yes, Jyrras is one of those)  It isn't advanced, it lacks a lot of the modern conveniences such as silencers, sniper scopes, etc.  There isn't any place that mass produces them. If someone really wants a firearm, they have to find someone who knows how to make them and have one custom built much like someone would order a sword.   There are some exceptions, but those are usually because a particular individual has come up with the advanced specifications. 

Comic-wise, and I'll prolly get scolded for going whimsical, there isn't actually a lot of being vs being conflicts that would require them to assemble together and militarize.  In the history of the comic-world, there has never been a war that actually was just beings versus beings.

[nevwyn]

This QfR is why I believe the Rock-it Launcher is the height of ballistic armaments. Who needs guns when you can shoot high speed teddy bears, dinner plates, mows at people with hilariously leather outcomes.

[psilorder]

Generally speaking one of the mechanics I do have set in place when it comes to enchanting is one needs a hands-on approach to things. It's easier to enchant an arrow because you are physically touching the arrow just before you fire it. Bullets...not so much.  And it doesn't really enchant well through another material such as the gun itself.  Swords enchant really well because you are holding them directly.    It's one of the major drawbacks I set in place for guns in that they are pretty much too difficult to enchant the ammunition due to the gun itself getting in the way.

So, enchantments fade over time and have to be re-applied?
Seems to me that otherwise it'd be simple to enchant the ammunition before loading. And i dont get why it would need to be direct-contact.

Hmm, someone mentioned DnDMFA, is this something i should have read for this subject?

[VAE]

That implies that most creatures are the type who are going to simply sit idle and let a being run military establish.  There is a reason a lot of creatures opt to run cities rather than simply destroy them.

Creature run =/=> most of those fighting in it are creatures, unless am mistaken somehow. And one needs to arm the lot with something.

I should point out (cause I forgot to mention earlier and in the comic) that gun technology is at this time on par with flintlock pistols and the weaponry of that era save for one or two exceptions. (Not so spoiler alert: Yes, Jyrras is one of those)  It isn't advanced, it lacks a lot of the modern conveniences such as silencers, sniper scopes, etc.  There isn't any place that mass produces them. If someone really wants a firearm, they have to find someone who knows how to make them and have one custom built much like someone would order a sword.   There are some exceptions, but those are usually because a particular individual has come up with the advanced specifications. 

Well, and i'd go to say that even flintlocks and similar degree weapons have quite a lot of uses compared to other sorts of arms for someone who isn't an enchanter.
Fair point on the manufacture, though - anything better than a smoothbore barrel isn't that easy to make , and it seems like those who know enough magic to manufacture them in simpler ways have no need for them.

Comic-wise, and I'll prolly get scolded for going whimsical, there isn't actually a lot of being vs being conflicts that would require them to assemble together and militarize.  In the history of the comic-world, there has never been a war that actually was just beings versus beings.

Actually, this doesn't surprise me the least. If any being-being conflict started brewing up, I can immediately see a) creatures joining the cluster**** for power, profit and a boiled egg. b) an angel or another sort of a manipulative bugger puppeteering it from behind the scenes, or actually both at once, with the addition of another wide range who use it as an opportune moment to deal with completely someone else, due to need for personal vendetta or what not.
Result ... think WWI , only fuzzier.

[VAE]

Hmm, someone mentioned DnDMFA, is this something i should have read for this subject?

No. It is nothing official, nor somehow better informed than Ambargh herself. (because, you know, she's the writer.)

[Amber Williams]

Creature run =/=> most of those fighting in it are creatures, unless am mistaken somehow. And one needs to arm the lot with something.

Truth be told, most of the battles tend to be the creatures in charge versus other creatures.  The vast majority of beings aren't combat trained.  That's generally the draw to most creature run cities in the "hey. You live here and work here and behave, and we'll stomp on anyone who tries to stomp you."  In a sort of Mafia style protection racket way.  So usually it is the creatures that do most of the fighting when it comes to things that like.

So, enchantments fade over time and have to be re-applied?
Seems to me that otherwise it'd be simple to enchant the ammunition before loading. And i dont get why it would need to be direct-contact.

Part of it is the aesthetic works better in my head that way.  To me, you enchant an arrow to be full of cold-themed energy as its leaving your bow and touch and thus on impact it shatters into ice.  A bullet on the other hand...I can't help but imagine it would just backfire and explode in the chamber itself due to the pressure impact of trying to fire it.  

The other part is meta-knowledge balancing issues and my own interests.  Adding in modern weaponry complicates things because then it leads to the question of "well why would anyone use swords if people can bust out magcally enchanted  automatic pistols or sniper rifles and shoot their targets from large distances?" and other things.  As I have mentioned, I am not a combat focused person and I don't particularly care for guns.  I didn't want them to be a focus in the comic...so yes...I have deliberately nerfed them to be less effective in this particular universe setting.   They are harder to enchant, they lack the modern developments, and they aren't as effective versus creatures in comparison to magic along with most beings don't engage in as much combat with other beings to warrent large-scale creation.

[Fixed quoting glitch -TW]

[Alondro]

Best magical gun:  Outlaw Star's Caster Gun.  Loved it.  And can totally see it working in DMFA to give a boost to the Beings... That's what it was for in the OS world, to give regular humans a chance against the magicians in the Pirate Clans.  The Caster's had their limitations, and were exceedingly expensive and rare, and the most powerful spells sucked the life out of the user.  So yeah, a really great fictional weapon and plot device!  

And then we must consider the perverted hermit sages on the Hot Springs planet who created the Caster shells.  As DMFA has plenty of perverts already, the sages would fit right in!  

*Charline peeps out*  Perverts?  Somebody call me?

[Ghostwish]

A big fat sign that says PAY ATTENTION  

I really have to agree with Amber's statement concerning balance and aesthetic. A while back, MeanyOwl ran a D&D campaign utilizing the d20 modern setting for DMFA. It portrayed a somewhat futuristic world of Furrae where technology came a long way. And it did unbalance the species a great deal. We had something like a couple of beings, an angel, a demon and a cubi. And who was the most dangerous? The being with the big gun who was, hilariously enough, modeled after Team Fortress 2's heavy weapon guy.

As for Ambaarrrg going Ambaaaaarg over her lack of ability to draw guns and vehicles and stuff, quit beating yourself you silly artist. Your strong point is character design, and holy flying monkies do you do that well! Scenery used to be your weak point, remember? Now you're doing that like a pro. Just give it a bit of time, and I'm sure you'll be doing realistic drive-by battles involving humvees and 240gs and SAWs and all that good stuff in no time.

Also, muffins.

[VAE]

Truth be told, most of the battles tend to be the creatures in charge versus other creatures.  The vast majority of beings aren't combat trained.  That's generally the draw to most creature run cities in the "hey. You live here and work here and behave, and we'll stomp on anyone who tries to stomp you."  In a sort of Mafia style protection racket way.  So usually it is the creatures that do most of the fighting when it comes to things that like.

Ah.. so instead of large-scale conflicts, most of the stuff is dealt with the "Yo mon, I seen ya f*** shit up in me 'hood." *flickers with claws* "Do it again and these'll tell ya liver 'howdy'." style.
Bloody hell, this reminds me of Vlad Taltos so damn much. And it's awesome.

As for Ambaarrrg going Ambaaaaarg over her lack of ability to draw guns and vehicles and stuff, quit beating yourself you silly artist. Your strong point is character design, and holy flying monkies do you do that well! Scenery used to be your weak point, remember? Now you're doing that like a pro. Just give it a bit of time, and I'm sure you'll be doing realistic drive-by battles involving humvees and 240gs and SAWs and all that good stuff in no time.

Also, muffins.

It's quite a side-point from the art side of things, but I'd say one of the strongest points is worldbuilding. Bloody hell, the races and everything are interesting, and what's more, it fits together well without breaking mouth over a plot hole every twenty meters.
Probably the main reason I like this comic so much.

[Mao]

I'm going to do this, since it's something I enjoy doing, and am going to say that anyone else trying to push the idea of guns any further than what Amber has clearly spelled out (i.e. arguing her points or looking for loopholes) is going to be getting a swift boot to the rear from me.  I'm glad you guys are enthusiastic about firearms and more so DMFA but it's been laid out and set, anything further is just being obnoxious and rude.

[Gavinfoxx]

I would like to point out a discrepency in the tool vs empowerment topic.

I've always seen weapon equipment as more a 'tool' in Western culture, and a more spiritual thing in eastern culture.  Consider the Western concept of a sword vs the Eastern concept of a Sword.  A tool vs the soul of a warrior...

Also, I'd say it'd be awesome if guns hadn't gotten past muzzle-loading flintlock muskets, Amber.  Unless it's inveted by Jyrras, who has gotten all the way to energy weapons and chainguns, because he can do that. Because he's Jyrras.

[Mao]

I've always seen weapon equipment as more a 'tool' in Western culture, and a more spiritual thing in eastern culture.  Consider the Western concept of a sword vs the Eastern concept of a Sword.  A tool vs the soul of a warrior...

I have to disagree with your interpretation of the 'Eastern' stance on things.  What you're describing is the western interpretation of the eastern concept.  Generally, in western culture, the east is thought of and treated (and widely presented) as mystical or spiritual in comparrison.  This is actually no more true than it is of the Western World.  I assure you that there were and are folks in the Western World who have deep, spiritual ties to their weapons/tools and trades just as much as in the Eastern World.  To dress up your statement as the view of the east is to do them a great disservice, I think.

[Ghostwish]

I've always seen weapon equipment as more a 'tool' in Western culture, and a more spiritual thing in eastern culture.  Consider the Western concept of a sword vs the Eastern concept of a Sword.  A tool vs the soul of a warrior...

I have to disagree with your interpretation of the 'Eastern' stance on things.  What you're describing is the western interpretation of the eastern concept.  Generally, in western culture, the east is thought of and treated (and widely presented) as mystical or spiritual in comparrison.  This is actually no more true than it is of the Western World.  I assure you that there were and are folks in the Western World who have deep, spiritual ties to their weapons/tools and trades just as much as in the Eastern World.  To dress up your statement as the view of the east is to do them a great disservice, I think.

The Samurai's Sword versus, say, Excalibur, for example.