Redwall

[Rakala]

For anybody who knows what it is, there is a Redwall movie currently being made. They don't have a set date yet, but production has begun. I'm just hoping it won't be as bad as the old animated series they made once that didn't follow the books.

As research I have been plowing through Brian Jacques' books. So far I have read Martin the Warrior, Salamandastron, and Taggerung. Unfortunately nobody seems to have Redwall in stock so all his other books will have to suffice.

[Mao]

I never read any of the books I don't think (or if I did, it was when I was young and was reading everything and anything under the sun.. and I remember none of it), but I did see the cartoon back in the day and enjoyed it immensely.

I have heard that a movie was being made, mainly in passing, and am quite looking forward to it.

[Rakala]

See if you can find the books. They have an excellent writing style that even when little is happening I'm looking forward to turning the next page. I may get sick of theme eventually but there is no sign of such a thing happening soon.

The best thing is they all take place in the same world and timeline, and some events influence others, but you can read the books in any order and still get the full story. So if you see any of Brian Jacques' books you can just pick it up without reading any of the others and understand most everything.

[thegayhare]

Redwall is a good read but after a while he seems to become a little fomulaic in his books so I stopped reading after... I think it was pearls lutra  Though I'm not sure I could have read one more... I've since given all my redwall books away.

I was a little upset that in his books the Vermin classed species have no redeaming chars... and he's said so in interviews there are no good rats or weasls...

I had my own Idea for a redwall story.  and I've actualy done a little writing to that end.

My thought was that the defenders of redwall abbey always have something powerfull that the other side doesn't have,  that being Martian the warrior,  he's there spiritual guidance and always there when needed.  What if they faced an enemy with there own powerful spiritual leader.  My Idea was called the Cult of Cluny.  A vast horde or vermin who worship the fallen rat almost as a god.  The priests would bear barbed whips to urge there followers on in this crusade against the enemies of the one they worship.  This would of course lead them to redwall where Cluny met his end.  The war leader in this crusade would be a massive Fisher.  so feirce that he actualy wears a badgers skull as a helm.

[Kenji]

Hmm. Interesting. I'm assuming what they'll wind up cutting out, because all books to movies do it, it'll probably have the same stuff cut out as the graphic novel did.
Which is ok by me, really, as the graphic novel had most the stuff. Sans the super ultra detailed description of the food...
Anyways! Seeing Matthias and Basil on the big screen would be cool.

[bill]

food food food food food 

I read the hell out of these in elementary school, so I'm pretty much forced to see this out of nostalgia. The food had better match up to the pages and pages of useless description.

[Rakala]

True, he probably dedicates about a quarter of his books to describing food altogether. Yet somehow, despite these long descriptions that are mostly pointless, I enjoyed it all the way through. I guess because he writes so well that it's actually like they said when you were a kid that books can take you on an adventure.

I was also dissapointed that throughout all the books, every vermin is completely corrupted. No vermin showed even the slightest amount of what they were doing was wrong.

[thegayhare]

I was also dissapointed that throughout all the books, every vermin is completely corrupted. No vermin showed even the slightest amount of what they were doing was wrong.

Well this isn't entirely true...

Despite what I and Brian said there was one Rat pirate with some redeeming qualities... I can't remember which book it was but as part of the story two rat pirates (one the captain the other with some other position) came to redwall they thought to lay low for a while and hide from there enemies.  they tried to integrate themselves into the abbey life and the captain failed miserably (he had told the abby dwellers he was the ships cook) at one piont the other rat starts to like Abby life  he even makes some little boats for the dibbuns out of barrels.  and is realy proud of that. 

a little later they are messing around after the abbey dwellers had set up a festival (generaly making a mess of things while the adults went to get the kids)  they found some archery equipment and started firing arrows.  The captian (can't remember if it was deliberate or accidental) shoots and kills the old badger nursemaid.  and bullies  the other rat into running after he stole a silver chalice that the children had won in a contest the day before.

The rat in a fit of guilt ends up killing the captain, returning to the abby in tears,  confessing what he'd done and returning the chalice.  since it wasn't his fualt he's not punished and makes a home near the abbey where he lives out his days making boats for the little ones

[Rakala]

,Oh, haven't read that one. I'll keep an  eye out.

[thegayhare]

I found it
The Rats name is Blaggut   The book he's in is called "The Bellmaker"  according to Wikipiediea there is anouther redeeming rat in a book called "Triss"  but it's not one ive read

[Jairus]

The Bellmaker. A sequel to Mariel of Redwall. I also recall that I read it before I read Mariel, so it took a little surprise out of it.

I think I stopped reading them around Marlfox, but off the top of my head I think Mossflower was my favorite. Martin the Warrior... well, I own it, but I never read it much. But Redwall was the first I read: good thing too. And for the record, I don't think I'll ever get back into them, for a few reasons.

EDIT: Ninja'ed by the hare!

[Zina]

I used to love those books. I stopped reading when I got fed up with the predictability, and the fact that the story was always the same, just different characters and slightly different setting. The characters were a little two-dimensional, too. I understand it's supposed to be a book for kids, but come on. Give your characters SOME depth other than "He's bad because he is a weasel. she is jolly because she is a hare. He is serious because he is a badger. He is mischievous because he is a dubbin." Gets a little old after a while.

In some books there are good vermin, but they are constantly struggling with their "natural" evilness. In Outcast Of Redwall, a ferret babe is found and raised by the Redwall abbey, and despite being raised by the "good" creatures, he's still naturally "bad". Because that's just the way weasels are.

Martin the Warrior, Mattimeo, and Mossflower were pretty bad ass, though.

[bill]

On the other hand, looking for racist undertones in Redwall books is half the fun!

[Janus Whitefurr]

In some books there are good vermin, but they are constantly struggling with their "natural" evilness. In Outcast Of Redwall, a ferret babe is found and raised by the Redwall abbey, and despite being raised by the "good" creatures, he's still naturally "bad". Because that's just the way weasels are.

[thegayhare]

Don't worry Janus I can tame your wickedness

[Jairus]

In some books there are good vermin, but they are constantly struggling with their "natural" evilness. In Outcast Of Redwall, a ferret babe is found and raised by the Redwall abbey, and despite being raised by the "good" creatures, he's still naturally "bad". Because that's just the way weasels are.

Awww... poor Janus. There there, we know that that's just a nasty stereotype and that ferrets and weasels are actually pretty nice. Shhh... don't cry.

[Alondro]

Of course weasles are evil.  As proof, they all eventually regress into lawyers.  *ba-dum-dum*

But let's face it, in TLoTR, there were no good Orcs either.  They were 100% bad. 

[Cogidubnus]

But let's face it, in TLoTR, there were no good Orcs either.  They were 100% bad. 

I thought those were called elves? *is a nerd*

What's more, exploration of the character of orcs or bad guys was never really made into a large thematic issue in TLoTR like it was in Redwall. In TLoTR, the orcs are the evil bad men! and it's basically left at that. Redwall goes so far as to dedicate a book to the subject, and concludes that some races are just bad apples all through no matter what you do.

[Jairus]

But let's face it, in TLoTR, there were no good Orcs either.  They were 100% bad. 

I thought those were called elves? *is a nerd*

What's more, exploration of the character of orcs or bad guys was never really made into a large thematic issue in TLoTR like it was in Redwall. In TLoTR, the orcs are the evil bad men! and it's basically left at that. Redwall goes so far as to dedicate a book to the subject, and concludes that some races are just bad apples all through no matter what you do.

I thought that the point of the Orcs was that they had been deformed and transformed, and thus were all evil because their "creator" had infused it into them. Of course, then we get into the question of whether something is truly evil if it cannot choose to be anything but evil... which is another can of worms entirely.

Edit: Of course, I am speaking as a man who respects Tolkein but feels that the movies were superior to the books, mainly because the books were so boring that I seem to have blocked them from my memories (and I clearly remember The Hobbit, and I read that before the trilogy, so it's not that I'm too young to remember it) but I can remember the movies quite well. Anyway, in short, I am not a LotR nerd, so I really don't know this stuff.

[VSMIT]

But with Tolkein we can say that Men are also inherently evil, since they all have the potential.  But there are those few (Beren and Aragorn, for example) that can push through this to do good.  Something that Jaques didn't really have in his books.

[Azlan]

Though this exceeds the scope of this topic, I thought it might be good to add something on the TLotR. 

Orcs are inherently and irrevocably evil because of their creation.  There were two origins of the Orc.  The earliest origin reported was based on The Book of Lost Tales (1917).  Here it is mentioned that Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth.

Tolkien later changed his folklore so that Morgoth could no longer produce life on his own.   He then amended the Orc origins to the theory that the Orcs were transformed from Elves by means of torture and mutilation.  This theory is generally the most popular and was subsequently published in The Silmarillion.

Tolkien supposedly recanted the "twisted elf" theory. (consider that it would mean Orcs were immortal, but it is unlikely that Mandos would allow their fëar to reincarnate).


Men are considered to not be inherently Good or Evil, but have the power of choice.

Note: references available.

[VSMIT]

But while Men have the power of choice, they will generally take the road that will lead them either to more power or to an easy way out.

I probably could have worded my statement better.

[Azlan]

I probably could have worded my statement better.

You had that choice.

[Janus Whitefurr]

Don't worry Janus I can tame your wickedness

Awww... poor Janus. There there, we know that that's just a nasty stereotype and that ferrets and weasels are actually pretty nice. Shhh... don't cry.

[Alondro]

The early Redwall books had a snake that ate some of the characters.  That was the best part.   

[Caswin]

In some books there are good vermin, but they are constantly struggling with their "natural" evilness. In Outcast Of Redwall, a ferret babe is found and raised by the Redwall abbey, and despite being raised by the "good" creatures, he's still naturally "bad". Because that's just the way weasels are.

Oh, Veil...

It's been a while, but I read quite a few of the books and enjoyed them.  Everything connected to Salamandastron was, to put it in Internet terms, pure awesome.

For that matter, I also liked what I saw of the TV series.  Although for that matter, I also remember thinking it was unusually close to the books, down to whoever it was who had that dream about being attacked by Martin that turned out to be a clue to the effect of "hey, we can use this long-handled ax to help us deal with that rockslide that has us trapped us in this cave."

So, a movie... could work.  I think I'm reserving judgment on movies about small furry animals ever since Desperaux left a bad (which is to say, painfully bland and mediocre) taste in my mouth.

[Kenji]

True, he probably dedicates about a quarter of his books to describing food altogether.

My friend put it this way:

The effort Tolkien puts into describing his locations, Jacques puts into describing his food.

[lucas marcone]

True, he probably dedicates about a quarter of his books to describing food altogether.

My friend put it this way:

The effort Tolkien puts into describing his locations, Jacques puts into describing his food.

wich is why i never read any when i was hungry. in middleschool i was supposed to read a book for one class every day and i made the mistake of choosing a redwall book, and the class was just before lunch. if i was hungry enough i refused to read.

[Kenji]

wich is why i never read any when i was hungry. in middleschool i was supposed to read a book for one class every day and i made the mistake of choosing a redwall book, and the class was just before lunch. if i was hungry enough i refused to read.

To this day I still want to find the Redwall cookbook my brother saw and learn the recipes.

[Tyranastrasz]

wich is why i never read any when i was hungry. in middleschool i was supposed to read a book for one class every day and i made the mistake of choosing a redwall book, and the class was just before lunch. if i was hungry enough i refused to read.

To this day I still want to find the Redwall cookbook my brother saw and learn the recipes.

They have one of those?!