Corporal punishment returns

[Vekar]

Correct Zorro!!! Glad your on the same page!

Hey folks, here is another reason WHY we need to have corporal punishment in schools:
Parents are monumental failures at raising their own children. Most do not even raise their own children anymore, they leave the boob tube and games to raise their kids, and when it comes to teaching them civility, discipline, morality or ethics parents immediately back down and go hide somewhere like rats.

Parents are mostly to blame as the reason for needing such laws.

[Brunhidden]

its liability- the parents expect the schools to do things that the schools expect the parents to do. and should the school do absolutely anything questionable the parents will blame them for all their kids problems despite being horrible parents of delinquent children.

nowadays your child is not allowed in school unless they are potty trained, can state their full address including street number, apartment number, city, county, state, and zip code. they also need to know their parents full names, phone numbers, and the proper procedure to call 911, which is more complex then you think when its a little kid


you are expecting a five year old to know all this- i was seven before i knew my parents first names and could get my phone number and address straight every time by about nine even before the age of each parent having two different phone numbers.

all of this is because the school does not want liability, and the parents will blame the school if something happens, thus someone somewhere has to glue three pages of personal information to the back of each child's head like a nutrition label in case they wander off somewhere

[Vekar]

Yet the fact still remains parents are incompetent. I believe in order for anyone to have children they have to pass a government test on how to raise children, treatment of children pending circumstances, and also pass an IQ test. That alone would wipe out 90% of the people who have children, parents are just too dumb and ignorant anymore. That as well as being too fat and lazy to get their rears off the couch longer than to go to the bathroom or get another beer.

Here is a video to look up: The Idiocracy
Gives a future for what humanity may become like if this keeps up and people keep getting dumber, with comedy thrown in.

[techmaster-glitch]

Yet the fact still remains parents are incompetent. I believe in order for anyone to have children they have to pass a government test on how to raise children, treatment of children pending circumstances, and also pass an IQ test. That alone would wipe out 90% of the people who have children, parents are just too dumb and ignorant anymore. That as well as being too fat and lazy to get their rears off the couch longer than to go to the bathroom or get another beer.

That is eerily almost the same as what I had had in mind

[Alondro]

Or, for the ultimate nanny government (which is where the country's headed), read "Harrison Bergeron".

Yep, gotta make everyone retarded so we'll all be equal and no one will feel bad.

Work everything to the lowest common denominator!  Equality by stupidity!  

(kill those who resist and then make everyone forget about them)

Sounds like modern socialism to me.  

[Damaris]

Darkmoon was never struck growing up, and is among the most successful and useful of his classmates in college.  He pays his taxes, he has a full time job, he doesn't break laws, and is a well adjusted member of society.  He has a loving and respectful relationship with his parents.

I, on the other hand was spanked and slapped by my parents.  The above is also true of me, with the exception of two.  I am not well adjusted.  I am horrified of upsetting someone, as I am literally frightened of the consequence.  As a result, I am passive aggressive, and unable to confront someone if they have done something to upset or hurt me.  Additionally, not only do I not have a loving and respectful relationship with my parents, I have none at all.  We do not speak- if we do run into each other at the grocery store (as we live in the same suburb) you would never know we were related, we speak to each other as aquaintances.  The way they chose to raise me, which is extremely similar to the way you all seem to want to raise your children, has left me with more baggage then I care to go into at this time.

So, in conclusion, the need to beat children as the only form of punishment acceptable several of you seem to exhibit is troubling, and I only hope you never have a position of authority over a child.  It's the beatings that my generation and the generations before I received that has contributed to this need to coddle children.  Blame previous parents and grandparents for being abusive to the point that we feel the need to be opposite.  That's the problem with society.  There are many other ways to punish a child.  Obviously you all aren't creative enough to come up with one that doesn't involve striking them.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

"Spanking" and "slapping" are two very, very different things.

As practiced by my parents on me (hence my experience, etc etc) - with whom I still have a very good relationship, despite being on the other side of the world - they managed it very very carefully.

In hindsight, it was usually the parent that wasn't transgressed against that was doing the punishment; it was clearly explained to us, in words we understood, precisely what we were being punished for; the parent punishing was not in a state where they would be applying more than the bare minimum of required force; and, as paramount, it was considered a last resort. That means, all other avenues of corrective behaviour were followed first.


Lest it be taken as criticism, this is merely my experience. In my opinion, there is a place for corporal punishment. It is a carefully regulated place, ninety nine times out of a hundred (at the very very least) it shouldn't be required at all, and it should be extremely carefully thought out beforehand. Having said that, the child should know that there are limits, and what the penalties for crossing those lines are. If these lines are set up in advance, and are reasonably consistent across all parents and guardians, then the corporal punishment should never be implemented.


That's spanking. A carefully measured, precise response to children pushing their parents beyond breaking point. It happens; children need limits, and need those limits enforced, and parents are only human, and will break sometimes; particularly with more than one child, as the children will tag-team the parent...


Slapping, on the other hand, is off-limits. That's simple rage speaking; the "fight or flight" reaction. Again, this is my opinion, but that has no place in a home; I will admit to having slapped my child, once, when stretched to the breaking point; I apologised, immediately, and sat down with him and explained why I had snapped (extremely long day, and had been looking after him for ~10 hours straight with no breaks, we were both tired, and he was whining at me; no excuse, but that's why), and we hugged, and made up. It was wrong of me, and I'd expect him to do his best to avoid slapping anyone, just like I do my best to avoid slapping anyone. As I said above, though, I'm only human, and I make mistakes just like everyone else.


People are animals, just like monkeys. Monkey see, monkey do. Important to be aware of it, though, and deal with the results before they become a problem. The problem is, many of the children that are being pointed to as a problem do not have anyone in control of them; their parents have given up, or never learned the right skills in the first place (I know I didn't; I'm in awe of my wife, and learn all I can from her) and the children are left to make do.

Lord of the Flies. Nuff said.

[techmaster-glitch]

Very well said, llearch.

[Vekar]

Each parent that honestly cares about their children and disciplines them has their own methods, some absolute failures others effective.

Here is a book for you all to go look up and read: The Dumbing of America. It came out back in 2000 or so, not sure if they even print it anymore. None the less it went over how ciriculums have been dumbed down, it works like this:
(this should sound familiar since No Child Left Behind was based on this)
1: School X has Y grade level as the norm and Z as the minimum
2: Parent gets lawyer because their idiot child who only by the grace of god can wipe themselves, sues the school because their kid hardly made a 1%.
3: School rather than duke it out backs down.
4: Governor or some high up official in the education system agrees that the standards are "too high" despite 50% are well above the minimum.
5: School drops standard to the old minimum, the minimum gets reduced.
6: Parent sues school again because child again did not make the new minimums. Sues on basis of "discrimination."
7: School drops the standards AGAIN.
8: Child fails AGAIN, parent sues AGAIN.
9: School drops standards AGAIN.
10: Notice the trend?

The above is a few chapters long in the book and documents actual cases that errupted just like the above that lead to schools lower standards.

Not sure but George Carlin even picked up on this one at some point about dumbing down of america and hit the nail on the head.

Alondro: See if you can find a copy of that book, because what I said and you said are EXACTLY what they did and are doing right now.

Children get dumber, they lower the standards, and then on top of that allow parents to get by with leaving schools as the "day care center" for them so they do not have to put up with them. Schools are nothing more than a large government funded modern day care center.

I say parents have the "puppy dog syndrom" which is they love the child to death when they are little and take care of them but the second they get past X stage being different for each parent the parent looses interest just like a little kid does in a pup after it starts to grow up. Then they just shove it asside or shove it on someone else like they do with the education system.

I say each teacher needs to be issued:
1 cattleprod
1 whip
5 pairs handcuffs
1 sidearm (9mm) for inner city or an AK-47/M16
1 INTERCEPTOR vest for inner city
1 helmet
1 radio tuned in to the local police

Things are far too out of control anymore. I actually got to see a school once in North Carolina where parents abandoned their childrens discipline to such an extent that the school became a war zone for gangs. The local police had snipers, patrol cars and heavily armored SWAT on the roof and other cops wearing riot gear just to keep the situation under control EACH DAY! I know you will not believe that but I understand, you actually have to SEE that one to believe it. I NEVER set foot in that city again. In fact I left the state and moved  to New Mexico.

[Damaris]

So, out of curiosity, how many people who've posted in this thread are educators?  I know rabid_fox was at one time, and I dealt extensively with children and the schools during my tenure at the library, but I'm interested in the rest of you.

And then, because this is important as well, how many are actually parents or deal with children on a three to four time a week basis?  I know Brun is public about his family, but how about the rest of you?

[Vekar]

Worked as teachers aid, worked in the school library so on. My mother was and still is a teacher to this day starting in the 90's. As for children, why in whatever is holy and unholy would I want to bring a child into this nightmarish world? I could think of nothing more cruel.

One does not have to work in the education system to know it SUCKS and is a JOKE! All you have to do is look at the facts and statistics to realize how bad things are. Actually, just go stand in a school hallway for about a week and you will leave with a very downlooking view of the education system and 99.99% of the students in the schools.

Just because someone does or does not have children or first hand experience in an area does not mean they are not entitled to an opinion and it does not mean they are unwise in what they have said.

[Fragmaster01]

Teacher's aid/lecturer when the teacher was out. Can't say it applies too much to the thread, though, as it was in an advanced subject(AP Compsci, so if the students got there, they were at least vaguely motivated).
I'd say it really depends on the situation, and most notably the level of schooling(elementary vs. later grades). I definately believe in the idea expressed through the thread that you both make it clear to the child what the problem is(so as not to send mixed messages), WHY the problem is bad(amazing how many times people forget that part), and to clearly show the kid that the punishments will grow worse. I don't believe in ever starting a punishment tree off with physical issues except in extreme circumstances(if two students are fighting intensely, I won't hesitate to put one or both of the students into the ground to stop it quickly). Also notable is the inclusion of meeting with the parent(s) if the problem continues. At this stage is one part I'd disagree with buisness as usual, in the effect that I'd refuse to accept the problem as wholly my fault(apologetic attitudes are silly ways of conducting business if the teachers aren't to blame).
Anyway, mindspew done.

EDIT: Vekar brought a good point on teacher defense, so back in I go! In terms of schools where it's that bad, that's a level where the faculty needs to suck it up and ask for help. A situation that bad is not one a public school should be in(or even has the capacity to handle). If the school was required to stay open for reasons unknown, the level of teacher defense proposed has merit. When applied to less violent schools, I'd not go to that level of riot gear level, instead allowing teachers the safety items they would like with the understanding that using them outside of an emergency is not only strictly forbidden, but a very quick fireable offense. Aka, the teachers should be allowed to prepare for the unknown(school shooting, etc), but shouldn't need any of these for student discipline. If a teacher is in a position of bodily harm from a student in their class, the student should not be in that class. Whether that's sent off to a disciplinary school, or given counseling, depends on the child.

As for the standardized test setup, I'm interested in how the New Mexico tests work in that regard, because the Texas ones are amazingly easy. The 11th grade one(needed to pass high school) has such wonders as:
Verbal: This is the SAT verbal on Very Easy mode, and has the exact same stuff(including the new SAT writing)
Math: Algebra!(that stuff you learned freshman year). Some geometry, but there's a formula sheet to make it amazingly easy.
Social Studies: Basic facts and figures, and 20% of the questions are there to see if you can read a graph or map. Not joking, fully labeled graphs and maps, just find the answer on them and bubble it in.
Science: The only real test, this is Easy mode freshman biology, with IPC(aka remedial Physics and Chemistry) with formula chart.
This would be vaguely scary until you realize you have FIVE chances to pass the test. FIVE. If you can't pass this test, you don't really have any business passing high school.
Anyway, now mindspew is done.

[Reese Tora]

Well, I'm not an educator, but my mom is, so I asked her what her take on this is.

She thinks that an occasional swat is not necessarily a bad thing as opposed to yelling at a kid all the time, but thinks that allowing it in schools is not because of a potential for abuse. (abuse of being allowed to administer spankings, that is, not abuse as in physical abuse)

[Ryudo Lee]

I have a 3 year old niece (from my sister) who we have found out is autistic.  She stays with us at least four days out the entire week.  You can probably imagine all that we go through with her.  We are usually quite patient with her (moreso than my folks were with me and my sister), and she's not talking yet so we haven't yet gotten to the point where we can hold a conversation with her, so we have been very reluctant to spank her because we don't know if she fully understands what's going on.  But, like llearch mentioned, there's a limit to what granny, or paw-paw, or uncle can take, so she has gotten a swat across the backside a few times, accompanied with a firm "NO".  She doesn't like it, but there are some mischevious things that she's stopped doing altogether because of that.  And she's not acting afraid of us afterwards either.  She's generally very happy and active (endlessly so), much like a 3 year old should be.

In my experience though, my folks too were very careful about the whole spanking thing.  I was never slapped, though my sister and I did our fair share of slapping each other around, sibling rivalry and all that, which my parents took in stride.  But when I was going to get whipped, I would get a lecture about why it was going to happen, and in that way I understood the crime for which I was being punished, and I knew never to do that again.  We understood that my folks were in control when they were going to discipline us.  And they never took it further than that.  They even gave some of the teachers in my school permission to whip us should we misbehave.  Although the school never acted on that, it was deterrent enough.  Both my sister and I graduated with diplomas from the same grade school, and we both have high school diploma's.

From all that, I have a healthy relationship with my parents.  We ride motorcycles on the weekends when we can afford it.  I'm even helping them financially (I live with them and pay them rent, which turns out to be the cheapest rent in the area), and have been dubbed the family tech support.  I've started on the road to a successful IT career.  I pay my taxes.  I'm better on my taxes than my folks are.  I don't break laws, and I don't do any illegal drugs.  I barely even smoke, and only drink on special occasions.  Even my sister has become a productive member of society.  She's employed, is married, has a baby and is a homeowner.  True, she relies on us to help take care of my niece, but that's due to her and my brother-in-law's irregular work hours.  But my mother doesn't mind.  She loves having her grandchild around the house.

[Vekar]

Frag: Currently teachers defending themselves is basically this:
1: You are not permitted to even TOUCH the student no matter what
2: You can not touch the student in defence
3: If you do your open to lawsuit from parents, student, school, government and you will either have your liscence, one revoked, two put on "probation" or three the possibility of conviction for something you did honorably and wind up in jail and your life destroyed.

I am amazed there has no been more school shoots than there has already been since the teachers are so helpless in what they do. Those schools that DO bring in police or security is NOT enough, they are lucky if they can keep track of 10% of the student population. Also the fact there are SO FEW cops it is insane, I believe someone said there is about 1 cop for every 5000 people. So forget government help, it is not comming.

I would do like I said and arm the teachers heavily and give them classes in basic combat, in other countries this is MANDATORY! Teachers are ISSUED an AK-47 or some form of assault rifle before they are permitted to teach. Not only to protect the students but to keep out the "crazies" so to speak.


As for punishment again:
I would say that parents who DO punish their children are split, we have a portion that spanks, beats or slaps them when it is justified, however we only hear about those who do it for fun and for kicks. Taking a wooden spoon or a switch after a kid who did something WRONG was acceptable at one time and society was for the better. Now it is demonized, if you touch your kid in any wrong way you are immedietly "evil" or someone who should have their children taken away from them. A cop even voiced this once (back in oh I believe 1998) about how kids would call the cops on their parents for spanking them after they tried to set fire to something in the house and have the parents arrested.

Lee, guess you must be one of the few who get along so well, for me it is more along the lines of declaring mortal combat when I see the "relatives" who I have denounced as relatives since I was 15 or so.

Anyway, due to how messed up the school system is and how bad it continues to get each year is why I have nothing to do with education anymore. Not worth the beating with the law books for defending yourself against a psyco kid who tried to take you out.

One last thing, punishment should be turned into a manual. Teachers should get a manual for what kind of punishments they can give on what levels of problems that are KNOWN so as to create a guideline and streamline the equality of punishment.

[Fragmaster01]

I'm quite aware of the silly apologetic nature of schools, and I dislike it just as much. The cop rate is a bit wierd, though again, I'm not in New Mexico. Our urban schools generally have 1 cop to every 250. Note that my ideas on how to work the issue are a bit biased, because I already am trained in martial arts and such situations.
As for the punishment guidelines idea, that won't help unless the school is willing to be firm with those punishments. Many public schools do run that kind of idea, but the punishments are either too light or not backed up by the faculty, so the end effect is moot.
Also, there comes a question, how would you go about training teachers in combat? Have you seen the average physique of a(non-coach) teacher? Of course, not speaking absolutely, but a a good amount of public school teachers are not what you'd call "fit" even if you were nicely drunk.

[Vekar]

The cop remark is for the general public. Also, if you stop to think about incidents in schools 1:250 is a really bad situation for the cops.

Being firm with them is teaching them as part of the ciriculum for becoming a teacher, also get rid of those darn "teach for america" whelps who are worthless. 100% trained BEFORE teaching ONLY! Anyway, enforcing any rules what so ever has become moot because teachers also are afraid to back them up or simply do not care anymore and let everything slide. You start by actually sending in state officials who are paid to do the same thing except investigate X and Y school and observe as a teacher of other teachers. You then can anyone who does not follow the protocols. However, simply making it legal, teaching teachers the basics of punishments and then making it known to them they are not going to get canned for doing so should be enough. Otherwise you are dealing with teachers who are corrupt and do not care in the slightest and are only there because it was a "quick" job and pays despite the pay being very low.

Shooting ranges and basic hand to hand combat. Any fat man or woman can do that. Anyone. Even a man/woman in a wheelchair can use a gun and do some hand combat though it will have to be specialized for them since they are going to be fighting point blank unlike the rest of us who keep at arms reach. Have all teachers take a PE class in college to whip them into shape and then the year after they follow up with hand to hand combat and weapons and tactics training on a minor scale. This could be done easily by calling out one or two state police, local police or a SWAT member. It will not take long at all, the hand to hand will take hardly any time, if you want to go the way of the Army you can take 3 months up. Weapons pending on what weapons are to be used I would suggest they are all trained in AK-47, M16 and 9mm handgun use of their preferance. Make this a class that will take up once a week for a year or everyday of the week for 3 months and push more training.

Again all you need it some PE classes to get them going basic fitness, then follow up with hand to hand then weapons and tactics training. I am sure the police would be willing to sacrifice one officer to do this. Heck, you could probably call up your state militia and have them come in and do some training and gun use.

Options are endless on how to do it, it is a matter of willingness.

Lastly to your martial arts, what kind DID you learn? I spent my time learning non-dojo, non-orthodox fighting styles developed for street fights and all out "it really hit the fan this time" type situations. So I learned a bit of everything based on its effectiveness, real life situations and not on using it in a matted room.

[Mao]

I used to be an educator.  I'm done with those days after one of the little punks rammed a pair of scissors into my leg and I was unable to do anything about it because I would have been sued.

I was also raised by a man who is a principal of a k-12 school here in the Canada.

My experiences are exactly the same as llearch's.  I was spanked, I understood why.  My relationship with my parents is great.  I talk to them almost every day.  Why?  Even though it made me angry, it did correct the behavior.  Now, unfortunately it did have a side effect at the time:  it made me angry at them and I pent that up for a while.  This isn't the case for everyone.  Thankfully after a time I let go of my anger.  Maybe you can't, but I was able to.  Once I let go of my anger and focused on the intent of the action, I couldn't find any fault in it.  Any pain they caused me then pales in comparison to the pain I would have encountered if I hadn't learned those lessons.

It's easy to say that we're not creative enough to come up with a better solution and to take a few samples and say:  SEE!  Beating them doesn't work and is just the product of an unimaginative and violent mind that will beget a vicious cycle of violence.  However this whole thread all I've seen is revisions of ideas and conversation and proposals to regulate what is a very risky method.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

And then, because this is important as well, how many are actually parents or deal with children on a three to four time a week basis?  I know Brun is public about his family, but how about the rest of you?

Do I have to answer that? ;-]

I deal with my 6yo child every morning, when he climbs into bed with us. Not so much after that during the week, because he usually goes to bed before I get back from work.

Weekends, though, is me and my wife and him. I usually get him Saturdays, with spells off when my wife tags in, and she takes Sundays, again with tag-teaming so neither of us is overwhelmed.

Plus he's a good kid. ;-]

[Alondro]

So, out of curiosity, how many people who've posted in this thread are educators?  I know rabid_fox was at one time, and I dealt extensively with children and the schools during my tenure at the library, but I'm interested in the rest of you.

And then, because this is important as well, how many are actually parents or deal with children on a three to four time a week basis?  I know Brun is public about his family, but how about the rest of you?

My brother's a teacher and every day he complains about how bad the kids today are.  Especially the ones pinning teachers in the hallways and throwing desks around in class. 

There's at least one knife fight in the high school a week now.  When I went to the same high school we had one in two years, and that was the last year I was there.

It's either beatings or extermination.  I vouch for the latter option!  Works for my plans much better.   

[Ryudo Lee]

Lee, guess you must be one of the few who get along so well, for me it is more along the lines of declaring mortal combat when I see the "relatives" who I have denounced as relatives since I was 15 or so.

Oh believe me, there are relatives in my family that no one in the family talks to or about anymore, but not for the reasons related to this thread.

Back on topic, the major issue is not with the kids that are already well adjusted.  Good kids don't get spanked.  Simpler forms of discipline work well in those situations. 

It's the kids that aren't well adjusted that need to be disciplined.  And there's a very good reason for it.  If left unchecked, that bad behaviour can turn into a mental disorder.  Case in point, my uncle Buddy.  Buddy was never told no.  He was given free reign through his life.  He's a chronic liar, takes advantage of everyone he meets, been in and out of jail more times than I can count, has used more drugs than I knew existed, and was declared mentally unstable by a hospital's psychiatric ward.  I am not exaggerating here.  He is one of those people who vehemently believes that the world owes them everything and there's no two ways about it.  This all could have been avoided had my grandfather actually disciplined him earlier on.  Last we heard, he's either somewhere north of the lake, or somewhere in Florida, and the Feds are looking for him.

[Fragmaster01]

Vekar: Ever been in a wheelchair? You lack the leverage to do any real fighting, not to mention the inability to sidestep makes dodging tricky. As for my martial arts, I use a self taught style focusing on redirecting blows(not judo, which focuses on using their power against them, but rather forcing them to be open so I can use my power on them effectively.). Aka, while most aggressive martial arts attempt to make an opening, I make the opponent make their own opening. Generally, a specialized form to counter my small size and lack of ability to grapple.

Alondro: By the time you get there, that's way out of line. That's the part where you start talking to the kid's parents about the problem, and make it clear that they'll be shipped off to disciplinary schooling(which is definately not somewhere parents want their kids, as some of those schools end up on their permanent record). When a student shows that much disdain for a peaceful learning environment, it's about time to ship them off to one where the teachers are set up on a no-nonsense policy with cops in the room.

[Gabi]

I'm with Damaris on this one. I can hardly believe you people are supporting this. Just because the parents are irresponsible and careless it doesn't make it right to physically punish the children. Why not try to help the children understand rather than inducing fear into them? And if it comes to punishment, there are less scarring and more productive ways, like detention and extra homework.

Of course, that won't solve the problem of having parents who neglect their children, but neither does corporal punishment. I don't know how often teachers talk to parents in your country, but it seems to me that it should be done a lot more often.

There are some cases in which the children also need professional help, and in those cases they should get it. But they're not nearly as many as people tend to believe. More often than not it's just that they're not getting a decent education at home.

[Alondro]

Talking to the parents does nothing.

They always deny that anything their child does is wrong and threaten to sue if the child is given extended detentions or threatened with expulsion.  And in many cases in our area, the parents are involved with the kids drug-dealing and gang activities, because they were raised teh exact same way.

Meh, I'm sticking with the extermination solution.  It's the easy way out, fast and efficient, therefore it's the best way!   

[Ryudo Lee]

I'm going to go partly with Alondro on this.  Except for one difference.  Talking to irresponsible parents does nothing.  Those are the ones that get sue happy the moment someone says something bad about their child.  It's the responsible ones who will do everything they can to discipline their kids.  If spanking produces results, then go with it.  If not, move onto other things.

But in extreme cases, pyschological therapy would be a viable solution.  The trick is to find what method of discipline works.  And spanking is a form of discipline that has shown results.  I'm living proof of that.  Parents just have to be careful and not cross that ever so thin line.

[Gabi]

*Sighs.* If only there was a way to send those people to jail...

I hate it whenever I hear that someone has done something awful but he's untouchable because he's a drug dealer.

[Ryudo Lee]

Well sometimes bad parents get sent to jail for being abusive.  Unfortunately, you also get the ones who'll use fear to keep their kids from talking.  "Fell down the stairs" my left foot...

[Fragmaster01]

In response to the parental talk, the idea isn't to change how the parents are acting. Leveling accusations, even if they are quite true, gets nowhere. Rather, approach it from the perspective of the system. The student has done some action, wherein the school has little recourse but to give a punishment, with the public knowledge that harsher punishments await the student if the actions continue. From this, the weakest link in the process is the knowledge aspect, thus, the teacher meeting with the parents is not to change their ways, but to show them exactly what has happened, what will happen, etc. If these parents are suit-happy already, not communicating this to them at the proper time would dramatically raise the chances of a lawsuit being leveled against the school/teacher. Also, it's important for the teacher to know his/her options in the scenario. If the parent declares that the teacher is the source of the problem, the teacher must show that the classroom setting is perfectly fine to other students, and that the student in question is behaving in an extreme manner. If the parent declares that the punishment/possibility of alternative education is too much, the teacher should remind them that the actions of the student fall under the classification of battery, leaving the teacher legally open to return such violence if necessary, and that the recommended punishment is a much nicer, diplomatic method of alleviating the problem.

tl;dr Fraggy talks legalese on how to avoid lawsuits and leave the conversation as an informative gesture, not an attempt to change the parent's methods of child raising.

[Angel]

Though I'm not entirely sure I approve, I think there is a marked difference between kids who were exposed to corporal punishment and kids who weren't. I've compared families that did spank their kids (mine) to families that didn't (our across-the-street neighbors) and found differences.

My brothers and I were spanked as children, as was our father. Our mother never was, but she doesn't take well to disobedience, even if she's never hit us. Even so, Dad would only do this to us if we were REALLY being brats - throwing a major-league tantrum and stomping on our good clothes when we didn't want to dress up, or fighting and shouting when company was around. And to this day, even though none of us is ever spanked anymore, we only disobey within limits - never anything big. Maybe a fib or two about doing homework when we were watching Happy Tree Friends, or sneaking into each other's rooms really late at night to talk about the books we're staying up and reading.

Our across-the-street neighbors have two sons, the older one of whom is friends with my little brother. The older one is a decent kid - he does sometimes give in to mob rules if my brother's other friends are being jerks, though. The younger one, though, is a nightmare when he puts his mind to it. And the parents never do anything except scold them vocally. Now, in my family, this has come to be enough for us as well; when my dad does it, it's usually a threat he never has to carry out, and with my mom, it's either a long talking-to or what we like to call "The Irish Mother Guilt Trip." But all of us agree that "Matthew, don't do this" or "Patrick, don't say that" are far less effective than a swat on the wrist and a stern warning.

Still, I think there should be limits on this in school; it seems more like you should let the parents deal with the kid, or at most, give them advice. At a certain age, physical violence stops being okay to use on kids and becomes more traumatizing than ever. And it should never be used too much on little kids, of course - never enough to hurt them or scar them inwardly.

I know this sounds kind of wishy-washy, but I really can't think of any other way to put it. There's a limitation to everything, and it should always be observed.

[Zorro]

Parents and teachers need a weapon of last resort. 

Spanking bans remove that weapon of last resort, and the kids learn this and use the ban AS A WEAPON against the parents and teachers.