Internet Censorship?

[Baal Hadad]

American Censorship Day.

Congress is voting on this bill today.

If it's passed, whole websites would be blocked from viewing in the United States.

[Alondro]

Having read the bill and what it allows, I am eerily reminded of President Clark's rise to power in "Babylon 5", where the mere expression of discontent was labelled 'sedition', and the shops werw summarily shut down by the Night Watch and the people running the shops vanished.

This bill allows companies to merely claim copyright infringement without proof, and the government can then demand that the site not only be shut down but that it be removed from search engines WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.  The site has only 5 days to contest the claim before it is shut down.  Since when has a government entity processed a non-lobbyist-linked contestment in 5 days?  Shut a short time-frame guarantees the site will vanish.

This is not only what the megacorporations desire to crush any small upstart competition by getting them erased by merely a rumor that they're infringing on something, it is also exactly what any future oppressive regime would use to stamp out anyone who voiced opposition.  Rumors, allusions, false claims... all resulting in immediate punishment and silencing. 

It's a huge government overreach and far too much power to both huge corporations and government regulatory bureaus. 

Remember this:  the government never gives itself powers it doesn't intend to abuse.

[Drayco84]

While I'd LIKE to view Alondro's statements as "alarmist", I'm too busy freaking out to come up with a rebuttal. Nonetheless, you two aren't the only ones that have noticed. Escapist's Jimquisition did a video on it, but it feels like he mostly just read off the wikipedia entry. Still, here's a link to it: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/4993-Sony-Nintendo-EA-and-SOPA

[Castle Pokemetroid]

If this law passes, better say good by to youtube, facebook, twitter, google, yahoo, ect that anything relating to anything copyrighted.

This may or may not include this site as well.

[Gabi]

Here's a page where artists (graphic artists, writers, musicians, photographers, filmmakers, etc.) from the USA can sign a petition to stop Protect-IP from being sanctioned. I can't sign because I'm from Argentina, but it would be great if some people here could add their names to the list, to protect all the websites that help you share your work.

http://fightforthefuture.org/pipa/artists

[Sofox]

Guys, I've been know to throw "Devil's Advocate" arguments out from time to time, if only to stimulate discussion, so prepare yourself because this is a big one:

Who cares if this bill is passed?
I mean, the internet is already a chaotic mish-mash of rehashed pop-culture from movies, TV series and chart topping music that's anything for a week to 50 years old. It was fun for the first few times but it's getting like any valued form of internet expression is just taking something that's popular and mixing it with something else that's popular if you don't just make some super obvious twist on it that's somewhat decently executed.
Sure, a couple of sites will get nuked (as if That Guy with the Glasses is going to last a single day after this bill gets passed), but they'll really only be sites that are already desperately mining the products of these Entertainment companies in the first place. Maybe if they finally get silenced, and people disover that slightly modifying and re-releasing something that people with far more skill and experience have created is a no-go, people will finally sit down and create something original.

[joshofspam]

I wouldn't say it like that exactly.

I think a more accurate description would be that theirs a whole lot of junk online and in order to see the good stuff, you have to navigate through it.

While using it to clean up the Internet of bootlegging and other violations would be nice. There's no guarantee that a loophole in it won't be exploited and you definitely don't want those loopholes there that someone can exploit for bogus reasons.

[Gabi]

This bill gives companies the right to close any website as long as any of its content infringes copyright laws. That basically means goodbye to YouTube, Veoh, Vimeo, deviantArt, FurAffinity, Photobucket, ImageShack, Facebook, Picassa, Flickr and all the other websites where people can upload and share their work. Because, even though they have policies against copyright infringement, they can't control everything that everyone uploads. And some companies are already raiding against these websites, so that law will give them the right to close them down.

And while some of those websites are big and have more than enough money to put up a good defense in court, what will happen to smaller websites where people post fanart or fanfiction?

[joshofspam]

This bill gives companies the right to close any website as long as any of its content infringes copyright laws. That basically means goodbye to YouTube, Veoh, Vimeo, deviantArt, FurAffinity, Photobucket, ImageShack, Facebook, Picassa, Flickr and all the other websites where people can upload and share their work. Because, even though they have policies against copyright infringement, they can't control everything that everyone uploads. And some companies are already raiding against these websites, so that law will give them the right to close them down.

And while some of those websites are big and have more than enough money to put up a good defense in court, what will happen to smaller websites where people post fanart or fanfiction?

I know quite a few stories and drawings made by artist that can give quite a bit of cred for allowing them to share their work and get commissions.

How could Ribbontail share her stories and drawings while asking if anyone wants to by a commission without Deviant art?

Jigsaw did a few Ratchet and Clank fan-fictions that never would have been online if this bill was probably around earlier. The site that their on would probably be on grounds for this bill to take that site off line.

Technically, things a built, made, thought of on the idea's and things that come before. Much like breathing in to get air, we take in are surrounding environment for the ground work for are new idea's and thoughts. Now their is something to be said about being inspired and then just stealing something. What people are most fearful in this situation is that this bridges the gap between them and incidentally controls what we see and think while hogging all the money for new idea's.

...Probably wouldn't be any good idea's at that.

[justacritic]

When it comes down to it all ideas stem backwards to one original idea. At that it'll end up being who has the copyright to this meta-idea. You know somebody should have had the foresight to copyright the concept of a character. That could probably shut down nearly all creative processes, for there to be a story, a story must happen to someone.

[Sofox]

When it comes down to it all ideas stem backwards to one original idea. At that it'll end up being who has the copyright to this meta-idea. You know somebody should have had the foresight to copyright the concept of a character. That could probably shut down nearly all creative processes, for there to be a story, a story must happen to someone.

Just to throw in a counter-argument: You can't copyright a character, you can trademark them, but it requires payment and a formal process. By contrast, copyright is automatic in everything you create (art, music, writing, etc). In addition, even in a world that fully enforces copyright and trademark you're still allowed to take a lot of inspiration from things. The Teenage Mutant Hero (I'm from Ireland okay?) Turtles "inspired" Biker Mice from Mars and Street Sharks, but you didn't see lawsuits being flung around over that.
Finally, I never quite understand the idea of all ideas stemming backwards from one original idea. Could you give me an example? Or better yet, tell me what this original idea is?

[Alondro]

When it comes down to it all ideas stem backwards to one original idea. At that it'll end up being who has the copyright to this meta-idea. You know somebody should have had the foresight to copyright the concept of a character. That could probably shut down nearly all creative processes, for there to be a story, a story must happen to someone.

Just to throw in a counter-argument: You can't copyright a character, you can trademark them, but it requires payment and a formal process. By contrast, copyright is automatic in everything you create (art, music, writing, etc). In addition, even in a world that fully enforces copyright and trademark you're still allowed to take a lot of inspiration from things. The Teenage Mutant Hero (I'm from Ireland okay?) Turtles "inspired" Biker Mice from Mars and Street Sharks, but you didn't see lawsuits being flung around over that.
Finally, I never quite understand the idea of all ideas stemming backwards from one original idea. Could you give me an example? Or better yet, tell me what this original idea is?

Imagination.

*patents the process for imagination!* 

MUWAH HA HA HA HA!!   

[VAE]

Guys, I've been know to throw "Devil's Advocate" arguments out from time to time, if only to stimulate discussion, so prepare yourself because this is a big one:

Who cares if this bill is passed?
I mean, the internet is already a chaotic mish-mash of rehashed pop-culture from movies, TV series and chart topping music that's anything for a week to 50 years old. It was fun for the first few times but it's getting like any valued form of internet expression is just taking something that's popular and mixing it with something else that's popular if you don't just make some super obvious twist on it that's somewhat decently executed.
Sure, a couple of sites will get nuked (as if That Guy with the Glasses is going to last a single day after this bill gets passed), but they'll really only be sites that are already desperately mining the products of these Entertainment companies in the first place. Maybe if they finally get silenced, and people disover that slightly modifying and re-releasing something that people with far more skill and experience have created is a no-go, people will finally sit down and create something original.

Um.. really?
What about things that take public items and twist them in substantial ways?
Say, the SCP Foundation - most of the pictures that are used in the files are taken just like that, and edited off any notices because otherwise they wouldn't look authentic - the policy is that when someone requests it removed who is the author, we do it.

If anyone poked into it under SOPA, it (and even, the whole Wikidot) wouldn't last for a day. Yet, i somehow fail to see how any of the well-rated entries are "taking something that's popular and giving it an obvious twist".
This is just an example I know well, and I bet there's dozens more - every blog using a random "internet" picture to illustrate an article would likely end the same way.

[Kafzeil]

Guys, I've been know to throw "Devil's Advocate" arguments out from time to time, if only to stimulate discussion, so prepare yourself because this is a big one:

Who cares if this bill is passed?
I mean, the internet is already a chaotic mish-mash of rehashed pop-culture from movies, TV series and chart topping music that's anything for a week to 50 years old. It was fun for the first few times but it's getting like any valued form of internet expression is just taking something that's popular and mixing it with something else that's popular if you don't just make some super obvious twist on it that's somewhat decently executed.
Sure, a couple of sites will get nuked (as if That Guy with the Glasses is going to last a single day after this bill gets passed), but they'll really only be sites that are already desperately mining the products of these Entertainment companies in the first place. Maybe if they finally get silenced, and people disover that slightly modifying and re-releasing something that people with far more skill and experience have created is a no-go, people will finally sit down and create something original.

But, in instilling a bad sort of "Quality Control" is it really worth it to basically screw over an entire Industry? And that's assuming that will happen, the people pushing this Bill do not care about quality or creativity. If the Movie Industry genuinely did care, we'd have been spared Bucky Larson and Jack and Jill this year.

Re-releasing things and slightly modifying them from other things someone else has done is basically the Entertainment Industries' MO. In the wake of Harry Potter, we got a slew of adaptations of children's fantasy novels of various degrees of quality (I'm looking at you, The Dark is Rising and Eragon) and the popularity of Sherlock Holmes and Transformers has lead to adaptations of public Domain classic novels and toys/board games.

I know it sounds cynical, but come on: why the Hell should artists, writers, and the like on the 'net be pressured by the entertainment industry to "Be creative" when they themselves basically rip everyone else off and make a shit ton of money in the process? This arguement doesn't work, and just make the backers of this bill look even more hypocritical and money grubbing than usual.

[VAE]

http://falkvinge.net/2011/12/27/american-corporate-software-can-no-longer-be-trusted-for-anything/
Interesting article that attacks the stupid bill on economic means.
Basically, if a precedent is set in forcing US companies to enforce US regulations abroad, circumventing and ignoring local law and local interests, it'll likely lead to the abandonment of US produced software abroad.

[Sofox]

why the Hell should artists, writers, and the like on the 'net be pressured by the entertainment industry to "Be creative" when they themselves basically rip everyone else off and make a shit ton of money in the process? This arguement doesn't work, and just make the backers of this bill look even more hypocritical and money grubbing than usual.

However angry you are at the Entertainment Industry, they actually create things.

However much you feel that, for example, Eragon is a rip off or derivative or a cash grab, it was still casted, scripted, shot, edited and produced as part of a single project to create a new movie. They may have taken ideas and concepts from previous works, the movie is still a new creation.
If internet sites were to do the same thing, they wouldn't have anything to fear from the bill.
Instead, they take parts of fully completed products and use them in a new fashion.

[VAE]

why the Hell should artists, writers, and the like on the 'net be pressured by the entertainment industry to "Be creative" when they themselves basically rip everyone else off and make a shit ton of money in the process? This arguement doesn't work, and just make the backers of this bill look even more hypocritical and money grubbing than usual.

However angry you are at the Entertainment Industry, they actually create things.

However much you feel that, for example, Eragon is a rip off or derivative or a cash grab, it was still casted, scripted, shot, edited and produced as part of a single project to create a new movie. They may have taken ideas and concepts from previous works, the movie is still a new creation.
If internet sites were to do the same thing, they wouldn't have anything to fear from the bill.
Instead, they take parts of fully completed products and use them in a new fashion.

So?
As you stated yourself, they use them in a new fashion.
What about Mystery Science Theater 3000 which used failmovies from earlier?  Not much difference there.
Also.. this just reeks of arbitrary drawn lines in the spirit of "Alcoholic = person who drinks more than his physician"

[Kafzeil]

why the Hell should artists, writers, and the like on the 'net be pressured by the entertainment industry to "Be creative" when they themselves basically rip everyone else off and make a shit ton of money in the process? This arguement doesn't work, and just make the backers of this bill look even more hypocritical and money grubbing than usual.

However angry you are at the Entertainment Industry, they actually create things.

However much you feel that, for example, Eragon is a rip off or derivative or a cash grab, it was still casted, scripted, shot, edited and produced as part of a single project to create a new movie. They may have taken ideas and concepts from previous works, the movie is still a new creation.
If internet sites were to do the same thing, they wouldn't have anything to fear from the bill.
Instead, they take parts of fully completed products and use them in a new fashion.

Frivolous, irrelevant things of no actual importance. When an industry has a lobbyist body in politics, it no longer cares about art, just filling it's own collective pockets.

True, but Ergaon was not a quality movie. It was expected to make money. Your average fan site or fan fiction makes almost zero revenue, and are often created by loyal fans.

This bill basically gives the rights for the industry to turn it's own fans into felons.

I mean really, people who upload short clips to Youtube are usually fans who mean no harm. Hell, Sometimes shows get more popularity thanks to Youtube.

Also, why should one industry be forced to bow to another? Why should the Entertainment industry dictate what goes on in the Internet? The web is not there domain, and yet they're not just requesting a little power. They're asking for untold power as possessed by governments like Iran and China. SOPA is hideously unfair and biased, and something like this will be abused.

Is that worth making a handful of bad artists and writers stop writing fanfiction? Handing complete control over the net to people who clearly don't give a crap about the Internet?

[Sofox]

What about Mystery Science Theater 3000 which used failmovies from earlier?  Not much difference there.

I've looked this up. It's hard to get a straight answer, but it seems that MST formally aquired the rights for every movie they showed and at least in one case, it seems the rights ran into problems and the show in question couldn't be released on DVD.

Anyway, the comment I made was in response to what I felt was an illogical argument from Kafzeil, and seeing how he's gone on and written a bunch of more stuff, I suppose it's time to sumarise things as whole and bow out.

Kafzeil, in case you haven't realised, I don't support SOPA, in fact I'm against it and was one of the people who started to switch domains from GoDaddy when it turned out they supported it. I gave my "devil's advocate" speech to promote discussion and debate, and honestly, I think Gabi and Josh soundly rebutted my argument in the first instance.

It seems another argument emerged about the value of current internet culture however, and that's a pretty large one to tackle so I'm not sure that, if we decide to continue it, we should continue it here.

I one question for Kafzeil though: You seem to hate the entertainment companies. That's understandable, they've pulled a lot of stuff over time and your feelings are shared by a lot of people.
But if you, with just the snap of your fingers, could make them all vanish, would you? Suddenly no movies being released, no music being broadcast, no new TV shows being made. Would you want that?

[Mao]

... one question for Kafzeil though: You seem to hate the entertainment companies. That's understandable, they've pulled a lot of stuff over time and your feelings are shared by a lot of people.
But if you, with just the snap of your fingers, could make them all vanish, would you? Suddenly no movies being released, no music being broadcast, no new TV shows being made. Would you want that?

I've been only skimming this conversation a bit, but I'd like to address something about your question/statement that is false.  Getting rid of the current industry would not cause entertainment to stop.  Heck, getting rid of the *industry* completely and utterly and forever wouldn't stop entertainment.  This stuff existed before the industry came into play in many cases (such as music, painting, acting/theater, writing etc) and could, as it has before, survive without it.  Maybe not advance as quickly as it has, but who knows?

[VAE]

What about Mystery Science Theater 3000 which used failmovies from earlier?  Not much difference there.

I've looked this up. It's hard to get a straight answer, but it seems that MST formally aquired the rights for every movie they showed and at least in one case, it seems the rights ran into problems and the show in question couldn't be released on DVD.

And that helps your argument how?
You stated that derivative works are of little value and wouldn't be missed - you were arguing about such a thing being actually beneficial to culture.
Or does the magical act of rights transferrence somehow make these valuable?  What about derivatives that are better written than episodes of say, MST3K
Essentially, citing this as a beneficial effect is misguided because the pruning it does to derivative rubbish is accidental - it is neither the intent of the bill, nor a necessary consequence of it's application - quality doesn't ever come into the consideration.
Hence the whole argument is about as sensible as saying that war is good because your asshole neigbour just might get killed.

Anyway, the comment I made was in response to what I felt was an illogical argument from Kafzeil, and seeing how he's gone on and written a bunch of more stuff, I suppose it's time to sumarise things as whole and bow out.

Kafzeil, in case you haven't realised, I don't support SOPA, in fact I'm against it and was one of the people who started to switch domains from GoDaddy when it turned out they supported it. I gave my "devil's advocate" speech to promote discussion and debate, and honestly, I think Gabi and Josh soundly rebutted my argument in the first instance.

At least.

It seems another argument emerged about the value of current internet culture however, and that's a pretty large one to tackle so I'm not sure that, if we decide to continue it, we should continue it here.

Make a thread if you wish.

I one question for Kafzeil though: You seem to hate the entertainment companies. That's understandable, they've pulled a lot of stuff over time and your feelings are shared by a lot of people.
But if you, with just the snap of your fingers, could make them all vanish, would you? Suddenly no movies being released, no music being broadcast, no new TV shows being made. Would you want that?

I'd do it, gladly. There's enough decent enough people's culture out there to keep one busy for ages, and most of my (and not only mine, given what's broadcast ,say , over the holidays) favourite movies etc. come from the socialist era anyways.
Furthermore it'd stop these sorts of bullying.
I believe the entertainment industry outlived itself, and is clinging by the straws.

EDIT: Mao got it exactly right.

[Kafzeil]

I one question for Kafzeil though: You seem to hate the entertainment companies. That's understandable, they've pulled a lot of stuff over time and your feelings are shared by a lot of people.
But if you, with just the snap of your fingers, could make them all vanish, would you? Suddenly no movies being released, no music being broadcast, no new TV shows being made. Would you want that?

Okay, grab some popcorn, this might be a long winded rant.

First off, if it meant sacrificing some kind of technology that had improved the world considerably, yes, I would. To me, it's like asking if I'd choose between keeping chocolate bars on shelves versus manufacturing polio vaccines. Yes, i know both Hollywood and the candy industry both employ lots of people and are worth a lot of money. But if I had to make the call, I don't think I could live with myself if choose Hollywood over something that's sparked revolutions earlier this very year and revolutionized global communication and commerce.

Though In all honestly, I don't think I *could* ever make that call without feeling some regret.I admit, I am not the kind of guy who'd want to make these decisions.

Also, I do not hate the entertainment industry as a whole. Hell I like movies. I want to see more of them made.

My relationship to the industry is one of hate and love. Made it's because there's this weird duality, or maybe it's because I feel modern Hollywood is twisted mockery of what it once was in the 70s when the blockbuster era started. It almost feels like Hollywood is appoarching a retrend of what happened in the 60s: Bloated budgets,shrinking returns, stale movies. It likely won't killed Hollywood, mind you (If it did, well, again, we'd have no New Hollywood or anything like that) but to me, it seems studios are getting desperate. gimmicks like 3-D and moving chairs would have been laughed at ten years ago. It's strange kind of innovation where spectacle rules and new special effects and gimmicks are created, but we're unlikely to see any new cool Indie movies like Reservoir Dogs released, if not advertised.

Their business model is obsolete, arguably, but they're still sticking to it, rather then trying to adapt. SOPA strikes me as not just unfair, but hopelessly misguided. It's an extreme attempt to stop piracy, which likely will only slow it down. Pirates are wily, crafty, and very determined. MW2 was cracked within days specifically BECAUSE IW and activision bragged about how pirate proof the game was.

if anything, SOPA is just the Nuke of the Pirates versus Entertainment makers Wars: Unlikely to work long term, and just likely to royally screw over the legit consumer.  

I pity them more then I hate them.

Anyways, Sofox, i hope that clears things up, if it makes sense.

[RobbieThe1st]

I'd argue that it's more than just misguided and would slow the pirates; it wouldn't: Hardcore pirates will find a way, and it will easily work around the silly DNS restrictions this law would place.
However, what it could easily do is create a way to censor "unpopular" news:  Say Company A leaks a huge amount of credit card information. Instead of telling people, they try to cover it up. Anyone attempting to post a story on it... well, they send cease and desist letters(however fraudulent), and the site goes down within 5 days.
As it is now, the content can stay up for 30 days(well beyond when the news goes from "new" to "unimportant"), and there is time for appeals etc.

I do think it will do a lot to crack down on people creating their own legitimate content(especially parody work), and nothing to stop or slow pirates.

[TheDXM]

I do not tend to view these sorts of acts as means of protecting the creative works of individuals, rather I think of them as being weight brought down by larger organizations to help them maintain a litigious status quo. Censorship never helps anyone be more creative, only less.

That said, I see these crop up about once a week now. But I guess these industries would not be where they are at if not for their persistence.

[Baal Hadad]

Apparently there will be a protest against SOPA and PIPA on Wednesday.  Even though most Americans are against it, that link says that Congress is about to pass this bill.

[Jairus]

Apparently there will be a protest against SOPA and PIPA on Wednesday.  Even though most Americans are against it, that link says that Congress is about to pass this bill.

Congress is going to attempt to pass PIPA next week, while SOPA has been temporarily shelved. This widescale protest is an attempt to built energy against these bills until they die. And considering that these bills went from "surefire to pass" to "co-sponsors are backing off," it might actually be doable. Especially since Wikipedia is going to go dark for 24 hours to protest these bills.

[VAE]

Congress is going to attempt to pass PIPA next week, while SOPA has been temporarily shelved. This widescale protest is an attempt to built energy against these bills until they die. And considering that these bills went from "surefire to pass" to "co-sponsors are backing off," it might actually be doable. Especially since Wikipedia is going to go dark for 24 hours to protest these bills.

Now, let's wait for the "salami tactics" to pass key provisions of these bills one at a time.

[Alondro]

I should note something.

Hollywood + Music Industry = hard core liberals + support SOPA

Tea Party = labelled right-wing racists BY Hollywood BUT are AGAINST SOPA http://www.teapartycommand.com/node/2054

This bill was pushed by both Democrats and old-school establishment Republicans, the very same people who mocked the Tea Party, which is the only sizeable political group united against SOPA!!

Soooooo... who are the champions of liberty again?  Actions speak louder than words and the proof is in the politics!   Stop believing what the media is told to tell you by its Hollywood handlers (entertainment megacorps who own the media outlets).

[Angel]

Sent letters to my Congressman, called my uncle (a spokesman for the Republicans in my state), and have begun answering the phone "ni hao" to make a point about countries that use online censorship. I've read the bills (I took a class on understanding Legal-ese), and I was displeased to find that the provisions in the bill are disconcertingly vague.

FIGHT THIS, PEOPLE.

[VAE]

Sent letters to my Congressman, called my uncle (a spokesman for the Republicans in my state), and have begun answering the phone "ni hao" to make a point about countries that use online censorship. I've read the bills (I took a class on understanding Legal-ese), and I was displeased to find that the provisions in the bill are disconcertingly vague.

FIGHT THIS, PEOPLE.

Um, china at least uses censorship for political reasons , which in my view is a large step above using it to bow over to corporate interest.

Other than that ,the idea is hillarious.