03/29/10 [AS2#95] Wow...

[InsanityRequiem]

Kinda distracted by the image of Mink in a construction worker's outfit (Make it shirtless), and a hard hat. It's giggle worthy.

And what Abel should have done? Hmm... I can't really say. Though I'd say go at it slow and recuperate. Start off with a gardening class before taking some fighting.

[AGE00]

Even if Abel didn't want to kill his father, he really should have at least enrolled in combat courses.  There are many ways to kill that don't involve seeing blood, and a few more than don't involve seeing blood 'til it's too late for the person.  

If he was up for protecting his mother, or even getting back into contact with her, enlisting Aaryanna or some of his more understanding classmates would have helped immensely.  Not only could they teach him tricks not taught in class, they could provide backup and ideas.  

Honestly, with the hemophobia, I'd probably see if I could overcome it.  Phobias are tricky, but the techniques used to remove them actually aren't that difficult.  Perhaps Mink would lend a hand?  Healing *is* something he wants to do, and mental healing is just as important as physical healing.  

I definitely concur with your suggestion that he should seek treatment for his haemophobia. I mean, everyone has things that freak them out, but the passing out and the hurling are a bit ridiculous. The circumstances in which a person is likely to encounter blood are generally less than ideal in the first place, and phobic responses as strong as the ones Abel tends to suffer from could only exacerbate already hazardous situations.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the combat training, however. Whilst I would encourage anyone to study one or more means of self-defense, I don't think it's realistic to go into even a minor scuffle expecting not to see a little blood spilled, even if only from a graze or a split lip.

Leave SAIA. Flee that Tir-Na-Nog of stunted time. Go to Zinvth. Mock Aniz to lure him into Kria. DO NOT ask how he died.

Yes, I see how he couldn't do that. His will was broken and he didn't cope out by himself. Well, nice job of helping him whoever took responsibility for his life! Noone? Oh, not surprising. He truly should have stayed with Kria, with all her quirks, she genuinely cared for his well-being, unlike Fa'Lina.

I get the impression you're not a fan of the ol' SAIA. Regardless, I guess the point is more what you would do, or what you would urge Abel to do if it were you who was responsible for him. Perhaps you could elaborate on this plan of yours for me a little? I'm not sure I follow.

[Scow2]

What's been ticking me off about Mao's "arguments" is that while he's nominally arguing about why Abel's a coward (a point I may or may not contend), he's also been explicitly and implicitly saying his offensive degree of hatred toward Abel applies to anyone who's had their actions dictated by mental trauma. The part where he started gloating that he believes PTSD/Shell Shock is a form of cowardice undeserving of sympathy was 100% flamebait, and he even bragged about it, and insinuated that other mental disorders are equally bullshit... I think that can be classified as a personal attack against anyone who has experienced, or know someone who's experienced such mental disorders.

Back on topic, as for the argument that sympathy for someone suffering from PTSD is a crutch, I agree. I disagree with Mao's belief that said crutch should be removed to make him "Man up". The entire purpose of a crutch is to support someone who lacks the means to do so himself. Cowardice is the cost of Sanity and Life. He's trying to avoid anything that will remind him of his last day as a Being. He pushes everyone away to avoid making friends because every single damn person he's been close to has ended up prematurely dead. If he were to start relating to someone as a friend again, he'd have a very nasty, unwanted reliving of the experience, possibly replacing Cindy, Devin, Xander, or Hennya with his friend. Aniz's threat to his mother isn't what held him up in the academy without contacting her. What held him back was his own association of his mother with that day. His so-called "cowardice" is a mental block that makes him incapable of doing anything that could possibly trigger those memories, and thus keep him somewhat sane.

The problem with an anxiety disorder, particularly PTSD and phobias, is that it makes taking an action concerning the source of the anxiety just as difficult as it is for a hemaplegic to move under his own power, or someone under the effects of an opiate to experience extreme pain. Abel has a serious problem with a very nasty Catch-22 when it comes to trying to get help: In order to get psychotherapy to get him over his inability to approach and actively interact with people he needs to approach or interact with someone who can help him get over his disability.

Fortunately, Fa'lina has taken steps to help him with his disorders, twice so far. First, by forcibly taking him to see his mother against his will at a time he couldn't object or try to put off for later. As depressing as seeing his mother die was, the positive note on which she passed away eased the fear of his mother being killed and giving closure to Abel's pre-Cubi life. And in DMFA proper, he's been essentially kicked out of his comfort zone into an area where he'd be forced to regularly interact and grow close to others. The latest few strips have shown him "Starting to 'Man Up'".

[Congo Jack]

I get the impression you're not a fan of the ol' SAIA. Regardless, I guess the point is more what you would do, or what you would urge Abel to do if it were you who was responsible for him. Perhaps you could elaborate on this plan of yours for me a little? I'm not sure I follow.

Well, recently I found myself feeling displeased with SAIA. The fact about a whole clan (maybe even more) is avoiding it kinda made it clear. I's place of security, but also stops any development.
On Abel's case: His problem is not having a 'parent'. Someone who will stand for him. A good friend who really care about him and strong enough to protect him. Would that friend teach Abel things to defend himself? Probably. Not important, because he/she would just go and kill Aniz. That's what parents do. Could Destania do that? With her hands tied. But she wouldn't. She didn't care. (Good things she left SAIA - she's better off now.) Aary is so fond of her fighting technique? Care to stay beside him and help him in battle? Shut up then. Kria would, without a doubt. Sadly she wasn't there.

[AGE00]

So, if you were responsible for Abel, you'd try to cut him out of the whole affair and either bump off Aniz yourself or arrange for him to be bumped off? Abel might not you thank you for it. People can be funny about this kind of thing.

I can see what you mean about SAIA, and, to an extent, I agree. On the other hand, though, I feel that there are certain things 'cubi ought to be taught before they're allowed out on their own, both for the good of the 'cubi and the people they'll encounter out in the world.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

There is one thing, you guys maybe forgetting about Cubi... which make any phobias or feelings harder to shake... It is that Cubi can feel/feed on any emotion.  

Their affinity is only their favorite food.  So, Gothic cubi are really downer for everyone, and can be very destructive.    

Confusion is Abel's favorite food, you know.  Be other people's confusion or his own.

PBH

[AGE00]

There is one thing, you guys maybe forgetting about Cubi... which make any phobias or feelings harder to shake... It is that Cubi can feel/feed on any emotion. 
Their affinity is only their favorite food.  So, Gothic cubi are really downer for everyone, and can be very destructive.   
Confusion is Abel's favorite food, you know.  Be other people's confusion or his own.

PBH

You mean that being on his own so much places Abel in an emotional feedback loop? Is that canon? I mean, I know it works that way for people, in a manner of speaking, but...

[Mao]

What's been ticking me off about Mao's "arguments" is that while he's nominally arguing about why Abel's a coward (a point I may or may not contend), he's also been explicitly and implicitly saying his offensive degree of hatred toward Abel applies to anyone who's had their actions dictated by mental trauma. The part where he started gloating that he believes PTSD/Shell Shock is a form of cowardice undeserving of sympathy was 100% flamebait, and he even bragged about it, and insinuated that other mental disorders are equally bullshit... I think that can be classified as a personal attack against anyone who has experienced, or know someone who's experienced such mental disorders.

Honestly?  The only flamebait here is you twisting my words and putting some extra ones in my mouth.  Gloating?  Boasting?  Bragging?  Where?  You've got issues friend, and it starts with you getting way too worked up over the discussion of a fictional story.  Hatred?  Show me ONCE where I claimed any hatred.  Please do.  Only hatred I have right now is that I'm bothering to reply to this assinine post of yours.  You want a personal attack?  Read up.  There's a nice example of one in the quote brackets above.  100% Underserving of Sympathy you say?  Sure, to people who use their claims of disability as a crutch and an excuse, you know, like Abel is doing.. oh wait, he's not even doing that because this stuff didn't come up until someone tried to compare me to Patten and I called bullshit.  Take your righteous indignation elsewhere.  Explicitly and implicitly hating someone?  I want quotes.  I'm pretty sure I've not used the word hate even once.  Show me my insinuation and how I've called them bullshit.

I'll say it again: only flamebait here, is from you and Pvblivs.  Grow up.  This is a conversation about a character in a fantasy land comic.

I can't even be arsed to respond to the rest of your post.  You're not even worth it.

Another TL;DR:  If all you can use to defend your arguments is putting words in my mouth and twisting what I have to say, then you aren't worth the trouble either.

[Tangent]

Man, you guys are more talkative than even me! =^-^=

There's one thing to consider here: Abel was avoiding going to see his mother not because he was afraid Aniz would kill her... but because he was afraid she'd reject him.

The last thing he'd seen before being 'ported to SAIA was his mother turning away. No doubt he was deathly afraid that she would reject him if he visited. She's blame him. And wasn't he to blame? If he'd not been born, then none of that would have happened. In theory. Of course, if May had been infertile (or Aniz for that matter), Aniz would have left her. Either deliberately and outwardly to break her heart... or vanishing one day and making it look like he'd been killed on an adventure. Either way... misery would be the result, and Aniz would get one last feast from May before vanishing.

He never wrote. He never tried to "call" via spell or anything. He never asked Fa'Lina if his mother could visit him... even if she could stay at SAIA and be safe. Why? Because he was afraid that she would reject him.

I've encountered instances when a parent has rejected me (heated words that came exceedingly close to me cutting off all ties with my family forever; if it weren't for my grandparents, who I didn't want caught in the middle, I would have). It is like having a blade twisted around inside your chest. I can easily see Abel avoiding that possibility in order to have at least a few happy memories of his mom, without knowing if she did in fact hate him.

So. Is he a coward? You could probably see him as being one. Fortunately... I get the feeling he's done a bit of growing since then. The Abel we met in SAIA when Dan first arrived there is not the Abel we see now. He's grown a hide that keeps him safe from the barbs of others (so long as his father is not mentioned). And yet he's still compassionate enough to help someone out who's in a bind... be it Dan, Jyrras, or even Alexsi.

[Damaris]

Fighting has gotten out of hand enough that it's been brought to MY attention. Cut it out, or you lose access to this forum for a month.  You damn well better believe I can demote your access on an individual basis.

[Turnsky]

i find the whole thing amusing simply because we have a whole bunch of people trying to do one thing...


Give a Psychological Evaluation to a Fictional Character. 

[Congo Jack]

Give a Psychological Evaluation to a Fictional Character. 

You never did it in school?

[AGE00]

It's an interesting exercise. Unfortunately, problems arise because, in order for a fictional character to be compelling, they must have problems and responses that are to some extent analogous to those of a real person, making it difficult to express an opinion on the character without also expressing an opinion on a swath of real people as well. That said, there's more than one way of saying something.

For example, if I were to say that such-and-such a character's blue hair makes them look like a git, I would be indirectly insulting a good friend of mine, who is in the habit of dying his hair blue. On the other hand, if I said that, on that particular character, the blue hair really doesn't work for me, I would greatly reduce the extent of any offense caused, because I am specifying firstly that I am referring only to this particular instance of blue hair and secondly that it is only with regards to my personal taste that it isn't working.

You never did it in school?

I always refused, because I felt that Shakespeare had a tendency to bend his characters to fit the plot. I was a difficult little twerp.

[Scarydragon]

Wow, I totally should have read this thread in order instead of skipping to the last page and reading backwards. It makes the various comments and quotes seem a little disjointed.

Although... I can't help but think it would be quite fun arguing with Mao, albeit in a more lighthearted and jocular tone. (I'm sure I'd be out-classed anyways. His lexicon seems a bit more robust than my own.) 

[Turnsky]

Give a Psychological Evaluation to a Fictional Character. 

You never did it in school?

not really, i used to peer at the psychological profiles of people that were in my mother's books, though..
folks like Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Boston Strangler, etc, etc..

[Mao]

Although... I can't help but think it would be quite fun arguing with Mao, albeit in a more lighthearted and jocular tone. (I'm sure I'd be out-classed anyways. His lexicon seems a bit more robust than my own.) 

I wouldn't go that far.   

I'm not exactly what one would call eloquent and I wouldn't be able to stand in front of a debate team.  I'm smart enough to form my own opinions and that's about all I'll claim (despite what a few folks would like to say about me).  That said: I'm always more than happy to discuss things, particularly in a lighthearted and jocular manner.

[Naldru]

I believe that there is another line from Shakespeare's Macbeth that applies to many of these posts:  "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".  Lots of good sound bites from that playwright.

William Tecumseh Sherman also had a lot of good statements for those who seem to bask in the glory of war and combat.

[Mao]

"I think this confusion leads intellectuals and artists themselves to believe that the elite arts and humanities are a kind of higher, exalted form of human endeavor." -Steven Pinker

"Intellectuals are people who believe that ideas are of more importance than values. That is to say, their own ideas and other people's values." -Gerald Brenan

"Soccer riots kill at most tens. Intellectuals' ideological riots sometimes kill millions."
-John McCarthy

Some of society's most valuable and cherished folks have had something to say about those who sit back and do nothing but talk.

[Scarydragon]

I'm not exactly what one would call eloquent and I wouldn't be able to stand in front of a debate team.  I'm smart enough to form my own opinions and that's about all I'll claim (despite what a few folks would like to say about me).

Still, sadly, that's more than I can say of most people I know. Most conversations I have of late boil down to "I don't agree with the things that you are saying." "That's because you are a butt." (Though, sometimes that second part is me. )

[Mao]

Still, sadly, that's more than I can say of most people I know. Most conversations I have of late boil down to "I don't agree with the things that you are saying." "That's because you are a butt." (Though, sometimes that second part is me. )

Haha, we all do it, and frankly:  I don't think it's any less valid.  Sad they can't express it in detail but then, not everyone's greatest strength is their words or thoughts.  It sure as heck isn't mine.

Given folks interpretation of me, you might say I'm the

[bradypodidae]

William Tecumseh Sherman also had a lot of good statements for those who seem to bask in the glory of war and combat.

And yet he implemented and pretty much perfected the art of total war; meaning civilian populations are fair game in war. The General may have lamented the idea of glory in war, but that didn't stop him from executing the horrors of war upon every man, woman, and child opposing him. The quotes give a glimpse of the man, but do not tell his whole story. And being selective in what quotes are given can taint the individual to hero or villain as the person quoting him sees fit. If I may, I would suggest seeking other sources about his life and view on war and its execution. A good place to start is by reading his own words, "Memoirs of General William T. Sherman" by the General, himself; ISBN 0-306-80213-9. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Hizzel read the General's works.

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."- Gen. William Thornson, U.S. Army

When it came to handling people suffering from "shell shock", "combat fatigue", or whatever you call it, we learned that the best immediate treatment was to pull the person form the line , get 'em cleaned up, fed, and rested, then put them BACK in the line as soon as possible! Within 72 hours was the recommended max time out of the line. Many reasons for that, but in short; return to friends who were 'abandon'; return to people with common experience; negate the 'cowardice' tag self-imposed as well as from others. In other words, get back on the horse before the fear of the horse got too strong.

Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PSTD) was not a concern at this time. That becomes an issue after the person leaves the combat zone and is away from those who had the shared experience and formed a natural support group. It is a real problem and has to be addressed the second the combat Vet steps off the Freedom Bird stateside.

One last note on this off-topic post: in all my experiences, I never, never, witnessed anyone suffer "shell shock" from being exposed to a single horrific event, even the grotesque mangling death of a friend. Momentary paralysis from shock/horror/grief/etc. sure, but it was always a momentary thing. It was always the accumulation of days of combat induced stress when bad diet, lack of sleep, and the constant visage of the horrors of war added up to push a very few into just "tuning out" and ceasing to function.

Which all leads me to wonder why Fa'Lina didn't do more to push Abel out of his shell and face his horrors, whatever they are. Perhaps it is due to her 'hands off' policy of allowing individuals to make their own decisions. Perhaps for Cubi the 72 hours is measured in decades, if not centuries. I don't know. I may never know. And I always feel extremely reluctant to try and guess Ms. Williams motives and reasons for the actions of HER characters. I really do prefer to sit back and watch her masterful story unfold as she sees fit. Believe me, I am enjoying the ride.

And this is one of the few threads in The Lost Lake Inn that I ended up following closely. Thanks to all for the entertainment?

-Bradypodidae

a.k.a. Gunny Armstrong, USMC

edit: My mentioning I am a Marine was in no way meant to brag, intimidate, or impress anyone, it was simply meant to explain why I used "in all my experiences" in the main post. Nothing more. No one has called me out on this, yet, so this is a preemptive strike in hopes of not raising anyone's ire.

humbly yours,

Bradypodidae

[Mao]

Ah Brady, we discussed this:  I had really hoped you wouldn't step into this mess.  Try not to get any of it on your boots.  They're really nicely polished.

[bradypodidae]

Ah Brady, we discussed this:  I had really hoped you wouldn't step into this mess.  Try not to get any of it on your boots.  They're really nicely polished.

I know, but for some bizarre reason this was eating at me and I figured I better get it out while I was still at least partially on an even keel.

[Mao]

As an aside.. for some reason as I read your first paragraph, particularly the line about quoting to suit one's purposes, I could only think of the speech given by the Soldier in the TF2 "Meet the Soldier" video:

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that nobody could best him in the ring of honor. Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. And then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo!

...

UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"

[Turnsky]

"UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"

there is certainly a lot of Fowl play afoot, that's for sure. 

[Lego3400]

That's pretty flimsy.  As for fooling them?  They weren't really looking for him now were they?  I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz:  Fa'lina. 

I highly doubt that those Wards would have been as effective as you seem to think. Fa'Lina is a tri-wing cubi and thus insanely powerful. She could likely have broken those wards with little effort had she tried.

[Mao]

That's pretty flimsy.  As for fooling them?  They weren't really looking for him now were they?  I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz:  Fa'lina. 

I highly doubt that those Wards would have been as effective as you seem to think. Fa'Lina is a tri-wing cubi and thus insanely powerful. She could likely have broken those wards with little effort had she tried.

Yeah, that's been mentioned and I've already conceded that it's very possible.  Do keep up.

[Lego3400]

That's pretty flimsy.  As for fooling them?  They weren't really looking for him now were they?  I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz:  Fa'lina. 

I highly doubt that those Wards would have been as effective as you seem to think. Fa'Lina is a tri-wing cubi and thus insanely powerful. She could likely have broken those wards with little effort had she tried.

Yeah, that's been mentioned and I've already conceded that it's very possible.  Do keep up.

I'm aware. I finished reading the thread after I posted. I would have deleted my post but there's no option to do so.  <.<

[Mao]

It's cool, this thread is a monster of a read. XD

[Naldru]

As an aside.. for some reason as I read your first paragraph, particularly the line about quoting to suit one's purposes, I could only think of the speech given by the Soldier in the TF2 "Meet the Soldier" video:

"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight!" Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that nobody could best him in the ring of honor. Then he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth. And then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo!

...

UNLESS IT'S A FARM!"

What Sun Tzu actually said appears to be "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result is victory, then you must not fight, even at the ruler's bidding."  I interpret that to mean that you should not blindly follow stupid orders.

Other quotes:

There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited.

The enlightened ruler is heedful, and the good general full of caution.

The general who wins the battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought. The general who loses makes but few calculations beforehand.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

To proeliator bradypodidae:

I wasn't thinking of Sherman as a role model.  However, I think that it is also safe to say that he didn't see any alternative to total war.  If limiting damage to civilians and their property meant risking the lives of his own soldiers and the interests of his nation, he felt that fighting any other way would simply result in a worse situation for both sides.

There are too many people out there who seem to base their idea of political and military doctrine on games like Team Fortress II and John Wayne movies.

All that said, I would agree with your post in all respects.  I have not had any military experience as there are bats with better eyesight and I have a few other medical problems.  On the other hand, my son will be going to Afghanistan in a few months, and I cringe every time I hear people who state what the military should and should not do based on some mythical image that they have obtained from movies and books.