03/29/10 [AS2#95] Wow...

[Jasonrevall]

Looking back at the first half of the story, Abel DID try to fight ol' daddy...  With much less than optimal results.  Again, yes, he didn't finish his training, but if Abel hit him with a chair hard enough that it shattered and Aniz didn't even bat an eye, you have to wonder what a second attempt would end in.  Yes, it's possible that Abel could have completed a combat course that his father never did, but sometimes power can bridge the experience/training gap, and I highly doubt that Abel would have been able to gain as much power as his dad had in 40 years.

Maybe not.  It's very hard to say on that one.  The problem is:  He didn't even try, so we'll never know.  He instead just hid away and was, essentially, a coward.  To afraid to even find out if it was possible.

I'll give Dan's rapid growth from regular adventurer who had a hard time taking down Regina, to one that had her pissing herself scared as a counter example though.  Many people play Regina down quite a bit, but she's still got some really nasty *racial* traits that make her formidable by default that get even nastier if utilized well.  In Aniz, we have someone who goofed off in school who has some nasty racial traits and a bit of experience with them, and Abel who has the same racial traits and the chance to possibly learn the skills as well as many others that could make all the difference.  Too bad he didn't even *try*.

I think it would be fair if you add in Abel's weakness to blood which Dan doesn't have. Also its not "Yes I've reached level 80 I can now take on the boss!" Having a certain powerlevel doesn't guarantee victory. Also this isn't a normal thing to stand up to like talking to your boss for a promotion or facing a bully at school. This is a life or death situation. His fear is understandable. However I do agree that facing his father could have yielded better results if he survived. Also I would like to note that Aniz has been surviving in the real world. Some of the best killers in reality and fiction get a lot of their skill from living and killing in the real world. For a fictional exampe I doubt the joker had military or any kind of combat training yet he takes on some of the most trained and intelligent minds on the planet. I would agree that, yes,  Abel is being a coward. But being a coward is a normal reaction in certain situations.

[Tapewolf]

At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong.  Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed?  I'm not convinced I would, frankly.  Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.

[Tangent]

Okay. A couple of bits:

First: Amber, why don't you do a brief flashback showing Aary and Abel's first encounter, maybe with the Squiggle commenting "why does she hate you so much anyway?" and Abel remembering it? That way we have the "background" information present. It could even be told within one or two updates really.

Second: Abel is far better than Shinji. Abel will help people spontaneously. He actually acts proactively. He may want to lurk in his room and hide from the world outside of SAIA, but he still does go out and do things and help people. Shinji? When he saw the one person who has stood up for him and cared for him for much of the series crying her eyes out, he shuts the fething door and hides. He is a passive unassertive lazy little child who whines about everything and acts only when forced. Abel is a far better person than Shinji.

Third: Sure, visiting his mom with a bodyguard may sound great. But are those Cubi willing to stay afterward and watch over May 24/7? Are they willing to sacrifice years of their lives to make sure Aniz won't come back and kill her? Even VISITING May could have resulted in Aniz going psycho. It doesn't matter how many Cubi offered to help... what matters is the consequences AFTER the visit. What if, after three or four years, Aniz struck then? After all, it's been years. Why would he strike now? That fear is what drives Abel to stay in SAIA initially. And I can't help but think that perhaps he remained afterward waiting for the day Aniz showed up with another child, so he could confront Aniz at SAIA. Or at least, tell himself that he would, to try and assuage his guilt.

Fourth: Abel was still a coward. After all, he couldn't visit, true. But did Aniz say "if you even talk to her using magic or write a letter to her, I'll kill your mom slowly and horribly?" (No. It was "do something stupid" but I'm not sure if writing to your mom counts as stupid. The case could be built for that... but hey. A stupid letter saying "I think of your every day and I'm so so so sorry what's happened and please don't hate me" is stupid? *shakes head* Of course... Abel was afraid that his mother would hate him. So long as he never wrote, so long as he never visited... he could lie to himself and say she didn't. (Which... ultimately, she didn't. She loved him. Even with her last breath.)

[Pvblivs]

I think that people are too quick to call Abel a coward.  (I'm not ruling it out.  I'm just criticizing the rush to judgement.)  Presumably, his mother's well-being was more important to him than the ability to see her.  Yeah, maybe he could have killed Aniz -- after Aniz killed May.  That would probably have made Destania and Aaryanna very happy.  But it wouldn't have made Abel's situation any better.  

Now, maybe Abel does need a wake-up call.  Perhaps he has let slef-pity over a bad situation blind him to actual possibilities before him.  But branding him as a "coward" does no one any good.

[Jasonrevall]

At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong.  Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed?  I'm not convinced I would, frankly.  Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.

You make an excellent point. We aren't in Abel's shoes so do we actually know what we ourselves would do in this situation? I myself would probably do some things that many would consider "cowardly".

[Tangent]

BTW, comments on Aniz not even having finished basic combat classes... well, that was several hundred years ago. Since then, he learned enough about fighting to effectively be an adventurer. He may very well have started applying himself to those "basics" he had originally learned. And he was skilled enough to chop a Mythos into several pieces when he wasn't even thinking of it. He might not be the level of skill of some of the combat-oriented Cubi... but I suspect he knows enough at this point to effectively assassinate May and probably escape before many other Cubi could react. Heck, he took out an adventurer and replaced him... and then continued "adventuring" effectively enough to support a wife and eventually a child (though if he continued adventuring after they went to the city I'm not entirely clear on).

So Aniz probably isn't ineffectual. In a fight he probably could hold his own... and very likely could take out Aary who never passed any fighting classes herself. (Besides. Someone who's fought in real-life will often prevail against even a fairly talented school-taught fighter because they've utilized their abilities in real life... the step between dojo and real-life is steeper than you'd think.) And as for Destania... I suspect she'd have frozen up for a split second fighting Aniz, despite the "hate" she believes she feels for him at this point, and that could give Aniz the opening he needs to neutralize her... at least, long enough to kill May and get out.

Aniz has likely learned far more in the decades he's been away from SAIA and being forced to fend for himself than he did in the two or three centuries he was at SAIA before Siar's fall. He'd have had to.

And do note, it's been over 350 years since that time in the DMFA universe. Abel is 399... and at 400, Aniz is allowed to enroll another child at SAIA. I wonder how much deadlier he has become in that time. And how great will his threat be for Abel, Dan, Mab, and the others to inevitably face in the upcoming storyline.

[Amber Williams]

Okay. A couple of bits:

First: Amber, why don't you do a brief flashback showing Aary and Abel's first encounter, maybe with the Squiggle commenting "why does she hate you so much anyway?" and Abel remembering it? That way we have the "background" information present. It could even be told within one or two updates really.

Abel's Story was originally meant to be around 50 pages long from start to finish.  It's now around the 200 mark, in part due to little 1-2 page updates.  I mean, Devin and Xander were supposed to originally only have about 5 pages of screentime max.

To the peeps reading, particularly when they have it all in one go, 1-2 pages is probably about 30 seconds to two minutes. For me though, 2 pages is two weeks of updates.  And they build up as time goes.  While I have enjoyed working on Abel's Story, it was in no way meant to be a permanent fixture in the DMFA update roster.  There are other projects I would one day like to do.   Particularly since it is inevitable that information from Abel's Story will hit DMFA normal since I tend to write under the assumption not everyone who comes to the site will read the demo 101 or the side stories.  So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.


As for Abel and Aaryanna, as a creator I tend to not take sides in things. I can say that I can understand and empathize with both of them and cannot really fault either for their stances. I think in life there are a lot of times when a situation like this crops up.  Especially since there is a lot of potential what-ifs backing up the both sides.  There are a lot of unknown or what-if factors that could have gone either way...it just happened that this is the way it did happen.  Any number of changes could have possibly resulted in different results, be them better or worse.  I don't really fault Abel for not taking initiative but I don't fault Aaryanna for her opinion on the situation. 

[Tangent]

Okay. A couple of bits:

First: Amber, why don't you do a brief flashback showing Aary and Abel's first encounter, maybe with the Squiggle commenting "why does she hate you so much anyway?" and Abel remembering it? That way we have the "background" information present. It could even be told within one or two updates really.

Abel's Story was originally meant to be around 50 pages long from start to finish.  It's now around the 200 mark, in part due to little 1-2 page updates.  I mean, Devin and Xander were supposed to originally only have about 5 pages of screentime max.

To the peeps reading, particularly when they have it all in one go, 1-2 pages is probably about 30 seconds to two minutes. For me though, 2 pages is two weeks of updates.  And they build up as time goes.  While I have enjoyed working on Abel's Story, it was in no way meant to be a permanent fixture in the DMFA update roster.  There are other projects I would one day like to do.   Particularly since it is inevitable that information from Abel's Story will hit DMFA normal since I tend to write under the assumption not everyone who comes to the site will read the demo 101 or the side stories.  So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.

That is quite true. You put in a lot of hard work with this comic. Hell, my own attempt seven years ago was far smaller in terms of total time and updates... and yet frustrating as hell. I can understand wanting to wrap up AS instead of stretching it out for another 50 updates (even if Squiggly fans would squee at seeing more of him).

I also sometimes forget that some of the characters here in AS are not exiled from DMFA. We may very well see Aary again in the future... or we may even learn from Dan asking Abel why she dislikes him so much. Or even why Abel went from a nice roommate to someone who drove his other roomies nutters. ^^;;

Addendum note: I must admit some curiosity as to when Fa'Lina adopts Abel. Or does she never tell him... and just did so when he first came to SAIA? Heh... it's kind of funny when you think of it: Abel and Pyroduck are brothers. Spiritually. Kinda. ^^;;

[Liatai]

Speaking of said roommate, man, do I feel sorry for Mink on this page. It's never fun to be stuck between two people glaring daggers at each other, especially when you're inclined to like everybody like Mink is.

I don't know... Aaryanna makes several good points, but I feel like she's making them too soon during Abel's grieving process. Abel is using avoidance as a coping mechanism, for sure, but from his point of view, he had good reason to. The only thing I can think about while looking at this page, though, is "Poor squiggly." I don't know what that says about me, but there you go.

I feel ya, squiggly... like so many others, I've been there.

[Mao]

Huup, looks like I took that nap too soon.

I think it would be fair if you add in Abel's weakness to blood which Dan doesn't have.

Weakness or fear?  Sadly, he's just afraid of it and freaks out.  I think that could be easily desensitized out of him if, y'know, he tried.  He also doesn't have to kill or even cut Aniz to subdue him.  Not that he even tried to learn how.

Also its not "Yes I've reached level 80 I can now take on the boss!" Having a certain powerlevel doesn't guarantee victory.

No, it doesn't nor did I say it did.  Sad thing is, he *still* didn't try.

Also this isn't a normal thing to stand up to like talking to your boss for a promotion or facing a bully at school. This is a life or death situation. His fear is understandable.

Not for me it isn't.  I've been in life or death situations.  Curling up into a ball and hiding all the while cursing your fate doesn't help .

However I do agree that facing his father could have yielded better results if he survived. Also I would like to note that Aniz has been surviving in the real world. Some of the best killers in reality and fiction get a lot of their skill from living and killing in the real world. For a fictional exampe I doubt the joker had military or any kind of combat training yet he takes on some of the most trained and intelligent minds on the planet.

Thing is again, he didn't even *try* to gain *any* combat experience.  Not even the training needed to become able to even attempt some real scenarios.  He just pussied out and hid. 

I would agree that, yes,  Abel is being a coward. But being a coward is a normal reaction in certain situations.

Never said it wasn't.  But he's a coward about everything.  We see it over and over again.  The way he's a dink to everyone to push them away.  The way he hid away from the truth at the academy and never once tried to do anything about the situation.  The way he convinced himself that his own mother would hate him just so he could justify the fact that he ran away and did nothing to save her from that mad man who was threatening to kill her at the slightest provocation.

At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong.  Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed?  I'm not convinced I would, frankly.  Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.

For someone commenting about the armchair aspects of others, I find it funny that you're implying that others wouldn't have been able to do a better job, or at least tried to.  Believe it or not, people out there have lived in some pretty terrible situations and survived them.  Some of them even, *gasp* learned from them!

I think that people are too quick to call Abel a coward.  (I'm not ruling it out.  I'm just criticizing the rush to judgement.)  Presumably, his mother's well-being was more important to him than the ability to see her.  Yeah, maybe he could have killed Aniz -- after Aniz killed May.  That would probably have made Destania and Aaryanna very happy.  But it wouldn't have made Abel's situation any better. 

The rush to judgement?  Like people flying all over Aary in the last thread and calling for her blood?  Sorry, but we've had quite a few examples of Abel's cowardice and dickery.  You want a rush to judgement?  Go look at those last threads.  As for Aniz killing May before Abel got to him (didn't have to kill him, or even cut him for those who like to harp on the fear of blood thing, many ways to subdue others) maybe, but as had been said:  Could have happened anyway.  You going to take the word of a mad man who's been shown to be violent and able to plan and execute said plans?  I don't think that'd be a great idea.

Now, maybe Abel does need a wake-up call.  Perhaps he has let slef-pity over a bad situation blind him to actual possibilities before him.  But branding him as a "coward" does no one any good.

This is a story discussion and I'm voicing my opinion on my character and backing it up with points we can all observe.  If this were an honest discussion with Abel, I could see your point about this not doing any good, but it's not.  The character is a coward.

BTW, comments on Aniz not even having finished basic combat classes... well, that was several hundred years ago. Since then, he learned enough about fighting to effectively be an adventurer. He may very well have started applying himself to those "basics" he had originally learned. And he was skilled enough to chop a Mythos into several pieces when he wasn't even thinking of it. He might not be the level of skill of some of the combat-oriented Cubi... but I suspect he knows enough at this point to effectively assassinate May and probably escape before many other Cubi could react. Heck, he took out an adventurer and replaced him... and then continued "adventuring" effectively enough to support a wife and eventually a child (though if he continued adventuring after they went to the city I'm not entirely clear on).

So he was abel to kill an adventurer, (though we don't know how, could have been a simple deception) a child who knew next to nothing of 'cubi let alone how to combat one, and we *think* (though we've not seen it) that he was an adventurer... though there's any number of things he could have been doing while he was off 'adventuring'.  Sorry, but that's pretty flimsy to me for speaking of any combat prowess he has.

So Aniz probably isn't ineffectual. In a fight he probably could hold his own... and very likely could take out Aary who never passed any fighting classes herself. (Besides. Someone who's fought in real-life will often prevail against even a fairly talented school-taught fighter because they've utilized their abilities in real life... the step between dojo and real-life is steeper than you'd think.) And as for Destania... I suspect she'd have frozen up for a split second fighting Aniz, despite the "hate" she believes she feels for him at this point, and that could give Aniz the opening he needs to neutralize her... at least, long enough to kill May and get out.

I've been in martial arts.  Several actually.  While I agree there's a difference between the dojo and the real world, there's a lot the dojo can give you that you will not get out in the real world on your own.  Two sides to that coin.  Also, many schools of training take that into account and will actually put you in harms way so you learn the lesson properly.  Keeping in mind that SAIA not only has to prepare 'cubi with the violent reality that awaits young cubi out in the world but the facilities to put them in harms way to train them and still not have them die. (magical healing anyone?) I'd say they can't quite be compared to the watered down real world dojos the likes of you and I would be familiar with.

I'd also like to know what you're basing your observations of Destania on.  What we do know of her at this point is that she's cold, vicious and quite capable of inflicting pain and torment and *very* experienced at it.  In fact, she teaches classes on how to do it.

Aniz has likely learned far more in the decades he's been away from SAIA and being forced to fend for himself than he did in the two or three centuries he was at SAIA before Siar's fall. He'd have had to.

Not necessarily.  He had Destania blocking him from Hizell's sight and as long as he stuck to the small fish (beings) he'd likely be able to coast through as long as he didn't rock the boat too much.  In fact, looks like he spent some time hiding, pretending to be adventurer out in the boonies...

And do note, it's been over 350 years since that time in the DMFA universe. Abel is 399... and at 400, Aniz is allowed to enroll another child at SAIA. I wonder how much deadlier he has become in that time. And how great will his threat be for Abel, Dan, Mab, and the others to inevitably face in the upcoming storyline.

I don't think Aniz is *any* threat to Mab.  As for the others:  Always a chance.  Always a chance he's already dead too.

[Scow2]

I think Abel's reaction to blood is stronger than you give it credit for... He says he's now capable of controlling it, except under duress. All indications say it's hard-wired into him, and it takes extreme force of will to supress the urge to vomit at the sight of blood or a substance that could be mistaken for blood.

He also was unaware of the amount of time that passed while he was at the academy... It's hard enough to keep track of time during a day with a normal sleep schedule. Stop his physical aging, take away the necessities that mark the passage of time (Metabolism and sleep cycles), and put him in an enclosed environment cut off from Day and night cycles, and he could easily feel 30 years were 5 or less... I'm reminded of Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick's stint in the afterlife... what he thought was less than a day was over 3 months. That could explain the lack of contact.

As far as fighting Aniz... I don't think Abel would have stood a chance. Just because he doesn't have a "Hero's" sense of retribution doesn't make him a coward to the degree you are implying him to be. Having the last memory of Aniz effortlessly, brutally shredding his best friend (Who was a Mythos, no less!) could cause serious problems in any future encounters, willing or not.

Even if trusting a madman is a dangerous course of action, Abel being cowed into staying at the Academy could be accounted for. Aniz is a lot older than Abel, and has been living in Hostile Territory ever since he left SAIA. He could have killed May if at any point he believed Abel would leave the academy because of her. Abel tried to move on with his life, not wanting to provoke the psychopath demonstrated to be able to kill quickly. As long as Abel was at the academy without contact with May, it's likely Aniz had all but forgotten her.

[Mao]

I think Abel's reaction to blood is stronger than you give it credit for... He says he's now capable of controlling it, except under duress. All indications say it's hard-wired into him, and it takes extreme force of will to supress the urge to vomit at the sight of blood or a substance that could be mistaken for blood.

Again, doesn't have to be ANY bloodshed.  I've said this many times.  Plenty of ways to subdue someone with not a drop spilled.

He also was unaware of the amount of time that passed while he was at the academy... It's hard enough to keep track of time during a day with a normal sleep schedule. Stop his physical aging, take away the necessities that mark the passage of time (Metabolism and sleep cycles), and put him in an enclosed environment cut off from Day and night cycles, and he could easily feel 30 years were 5 or less... I'm reminded of Roy Greenhilt from Order of the Stick's stint in the afterlife... what he thought was less than a day was over 3 months. That could explain the lack of contact.

True, but if he honestly wanted to do something about it keeping track of that time would have mattered.  It's just further proof that he just wanted to run away and hide.

As far as fighting Aniz... I don't think Abel would have stood a chance. Just because he doesn't have a "Hero's" sense of retribution doesn't make him a coward to the degree you are implying him to be. Having the last memory of Aniz effortlessly, brutally shredding his best friend (Who was a Mythos, no less!) could cause serious problems in any future encounters, willing or not.

A very young mythos, who knows next to nothing about 'Cubi and who's power and abilities we know nothing about.  Mythos != powerful.  Mythos= more varied than any other species.  Wide varieties of skills, abilities and racial traits.

You don't need a 'Hero's sense of retribution' to realize a threat to those you love and to put things in motion to neutralize it.  He didn't even try that much.  He's a chicken.

Even if trusting a madman is a dangerous course of action, Abel being cowed into staying at the Academy could be accounted for. Aniz is a lot older than Abel, and has been living in Hostile Territory ever since he left SAIA. He could have killed May if at any point he believed Abel would leave the academy because of her. Abel tried to move on with his life, not wanting to provoke the psychopath demonstrated to be able to kill quickly. As long as Abel was at the academy without contact with May, it's likely Aniz had all but forgotten her.

Maybe he could have, or maybe he couldn't have.  Point remains Abel did nothing to even try to ensure his mom was safe.  Instead he curled up, told himself some little lies about how his mom hates him to justify his inaction and when that wasn't enough fell back on the excuse that, despite all the arsenal he had available, if he 'did something stupid' Aniz would try and kill May.  As for Aniz's ability to kill quickly?  I don't imaging he's any faster than any other cubi his age.  In fact, there were some who were quite a bit older who were more than willing to try and take Aniz down.  Destania for one.  Maybe she can't be trusted but so far, she's got no reason to want May dead and if her and Abel travel together, all Abel needs to do is get May out of there while Destania exacts her revenge.  Abel wouldn't even have to see a drop of blood, and his mother's safety would likely be better assured.

[Naldru]

Destania had arranged for a spell that essentially made Aniz undetectable to creatures, presumably including cubi.

It didn't say anything like that.  She just used her power to block Aniz from Hizell's sight, last I read.  Never said anything about 'cubi or creatures.

I refer you to strip 422 where it says that the reason that Dan couldn't be found by SAIA was that he was a member of Cyra's clan.  In Abel's Story (Part 2), strip 58, it says that Destania used Cyra's power to hide Aniz.  I assumed that this amounted to same concealment technique used by other members of Cyra's clan.

Kria is mad at Aniz because Abel and May were her friends.  However, she wants him punished because he is guilty of disturbing the peace.  (Using the original meaning of the term.)  Having a war between cubi within Zinvth would have very serious political repercussions.  Picture cubi and demon versions of "liver eating" Johnson going after each other's tribes.  Outside of Zinvth, it would be difficult to locate Aniz.

Yeah, and punishment for murder would probably be pretty nasty.  Toss on the fact that Kria is a little random herself and very protective of her friends and family, and I wouldn't consider it unlikely that a certain someone never made it to court.  As for a war?  Maybe.  It could happen.  That said, who would be willing to go to war with the Demons, over the death of someone who committed a crime in a city and who had wronged quite a few powerful and potentially nasty folks.  Sounds like a recipe for a massive stalemate to me.

I am viewing the attitudes of demons and cubi to be very similar to concepts that were common during the medieval period.  Taun and Owona would have no hesitation about going to war if they felt that honor demanded it.  Taun isn't the protector or the guardian, he is The Avenger.  If Fa'lina had turned Aniz over to Zinvth, Taun would feel that the honor of the cubi had been tarnished and vengeance would be required.  If Kria killed Aniz, this might also be viewed as requiring retribution.  (This attitude currently exists in many tribal societies.)  We're talking feuds of the level of Hatfield/McCoy or Capulet/Montague.  Actually, we're talking much deadlier.  You're talking of rational thought and calm discussion, while I'm looking at rage and vengeance.  Take a look at the Balkans over the last hundred years or the feuds between groups in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Edit:

I just took another look at Amber's post.

So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.

There is an implication that SAIA and Zinvth politics are complicated.  Has anybody considered that Abel may not only have been afraid of the death of himself or his mother, but a full scale war between cubi and Zinvth that would kill many of Abel's friends on both sides.

[InsanityRequiem]

Hmm... Note time!

1) Shunned most of his childhood, physically and vocally abused by every kid in town.

2) Mom and dad, from the looks of it, arguing a lot, said arguments involving Abel and his wings.

While moving to Zinvth helped resolve those two problems a good bit, they would still have a little impact on him.

3) Cindy, the only person that was Abel's sister basically, committed suicide because of the fact she was an adventurer's child.

4) A fear of blood throughout his entire life, and with such severity that he gets physically ill.

5) Two people that were relatively nice to him after Cindy's funeral, Xander and Devin, both died when they get ambushed at a post. Devin dying while Abel sprouted head wings, making Abel believe it was his fault.

6) At home soon after, his mom and pop fight over him being an Incubus, in which his father morphs into Aniz, no longer facading.

7) Aniz hurts May, someone Abel would most likely look up to the most, as she's always been there for him, his support.

8 ) And then another of Abel's friends die. Just when she's about to get married.

9) While feeling like he's the cause of strife for everyone he knows, he suddenly is forced into SAIA. His life changed and ruined at the moment.

10) The finishing blow to it all being the threat to his mom, killing her and using her against me.

(I've probably missed a thing or two, oh well.)

Hmm... Now from my perspective, any normal person would suffer a major mental breakdown with all the bad stuff that happened. And may end up in an asylum.

Is Abel a coward in my eyes? No. No he isn't. He's a saint to me. He's somehow been able to not go insane over how bad his life went. It is understandable how he went into auto-pilot from his first day into the Academy to his mom's death. One's mind tends to shut itself down in extreme amounts of stress. And Abel's mind did just that, shut itself down so his fractured and cracked mind could attempt to repair itself. Crying and loneliness can happen. Hey, you can say that Abel could have developed any sort of Dissociative disorders because of this. I wouldn't hold it against him.

On to the Aniz part: Failing a class does not make one an idiot. It shows one being lazy and not caring. Look an Einstein, he was a genius but failed many classes. Aniz also learned much in his time away from the Academy, becoming more efficient and brutal. He was able to fool Kria Soulstealer, one of the most dangerous Demons there is, and that's not talking about a city full of demons and all sorts of creatures! How long have they lived there? 15 years at least? He's obviously had learned a lot to fool an entire city (Not counting the SAIA folk).

Aary: Yes, she is right in some points to her argument, but how she did it would not help. Coward? That'll just make Abel, who's mind really isn't stable with having to visit his mom on her deathbed (Though it did give some closure, knowing that she loved him and never blamed him), attack her and want to hill her. Abel could have done stuff, but when running on auto-pilot most of the time, hence the realizing that he's been in SAIA for nearly 40 years, one does not think about what should be done.

Disclaimer: I have only taken a few psychology classes, so I am not a source. But with being to multiple psyches and talked with a few, I have a slight grasp on the mind and how easy it can snap under little strain.

[techmaster-glitch]

-analytical post-

*applauds* Excellent to see someone break down the component causes to get at why Abel is the way he is. I was looking through the archives of the exact encounter, and due to how brutal it was, came to the same conclusion. Now granted, the argument must be made that there are "some" people who are "strong" enough to handle these extreme levels of stress, but Abel is obviously not one of these "some people", nor did he ever have any help in becoming so.

Also, welcome to the forums. Brilliant entrance.

[Nino]

You don't need a 'Hero's sense of retribution' to realize a threat to those you love and to put things in motion to neutralize it.  He didn't even try that much.  He's a chicken.

Aww man, and THIS WHOLE TIME I somehow thought Abel was a CAT! I am so bad at this furry stuff

[Scow2]

Disclaimer: I have only taken a few psychology classes, so I am not a source. But with being to multiple psyches and talked with a few, I have a slight grasp on the mind and how easy it can snap under little strain.

If you've taken any, I think that gives you a significant amount of credibility compared to others. And, your insights do make sense.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Abel's a saint... his sanity cannot be in any way, shape, or form intact. He's just not psycho... yet. Mao can call him a coward, but due to the degree of mental trauma Abel's been through, Aniz isn't a "Normal 'cubi" to Cookies-and-Cream. He's a specially tailored horror and monster for Abel. I think Abel would stand a better chance confronting Azathoth or Hastur than Aniz as far as keeping his mind intact goes.

Honestly, Mao... you call Abel a "coward", yet I don't think Abel has lived for those 375 years he's been at the academy. He has no need for sustenance. He has no need for sleep, or, he can sleep as long as he feels like. He has no obligation to do well in his classes, though they can sort of cope. He doesn't age. Essentially, he's been locked in what could essentially be described as mental stasis since arriving at SAIA. He's had to rebuild his life from scratch, so he now does well in his courses. It's why his attitude is so much different than it was. DMFA's Abel is hardly more AS 1's  Abel than Devin Soulstealer is AS#1 Devin.

As a recent DMFA arc has demonstrated, Abel is just as mentally unstable as his father.

Abel's not a coward... He's just made some crappy Will saves.

[inuhanyo]

As nasty as she seems she has a very good point. Though the fact that Ainz never finished a combat course sounds like something someone would have told Abel. Abel could have taken a few and and have beaten him.

I believe that this the the first we've heard of it, though.

But unless Abel is ready to kill Aniz, it doesn't really change anything.  And studing at SAIA is what Anniz wants Abel to do, so he'd be playing Aniz's game.

Aniz is a dangerious madman, unless you've got someplace secure to lock him away, the only way to neutralize his threat is to kill him.

[Arcblade]

-analytical post-

Well analyzed.  If you're not already one, do consider a Psychology major.   

Also, welcome to the forums!

[Baal Hadad]

-analytical post-

*applauds* Excellent to see someone break down the component causes to get at why Abel is the way he is. I was looking through the archives of the exact encounter, and due to how brutal it was, came to the same conclusion. Now granted, the argument must be made that there are "some" people who are "strong" enough to handle these extreme levels of stress, but Abel is obviously not one of these "some people", nor did he ever have any help in becoming so.

Also, welcome to the forums. Brilliant entrance.

I applaud that analysis as well, and was frankly hoping someone would do something like that.  All I know is that when I read through Chapter 1 of Abel's Story for the first time I was shocked, saddened, angered, hurt, and while my feelings were nowhere near what Abel's were (I wasn't actually LIVING it), I could understand what he was going through and kind of see why DMFA Abel is the way he is.  He's afraid to get close to anyone but at the same time he cares enough not to want anyone to suffer needlessly--both elements come from what he's experiencing here.

[Lego3400]

-Scared of fighting/killing in general. I mean, blood-phobia, for one. And if this is anything to go off of, I'd say it's a fair bet that he's scared to kill people in general because he doesn't want to become like his father.

There are many ways to kill without bllod. Strangle them. Posion them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...

[Turnsky]

-Scared of fighting/killing in general. I mean, blood-phobia, for one. And if this is anything to go off of, I'd say it's a fair bet that he's scared to kill people in general because he doesn't want to become like his father.

There are many ways to kill without bllod. Strangle them. Posion them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...

Boil 'em Mash 'em Stick 'em in a stew... 

[Tapewolf]

For someone commenting about the armchair aspects of others, I find it funny that you're implying that others wouldn't have been able to do a better job, or at least tried to.  Believe it or not, people out there have lived in some pretty terrible situations and survived them.  Some of them even, *gasp* learned from them!

This is true.  However I'm not sure I agree with the premise that everyone can quickly and easily recover from a massive shock with no mental scars, which seems to be what you're saying.
Abel went to a funeral and by the time he came back he'd seen three people die right before his eyes - two of whom he'd known from childhood.  He discovered that his father was criminally insane and that he (Abel) was a monster.  Said father beat him up, kidnapped him and dumped him in a whole campus full of monsters.  Even part of that is the sort of thing that post-traumatic stress disorder or a nervous breakdown is made of.

Now, I won't claim that I've seen anyone die before my eyes.  But speaking from personal experience I have no problem with the idea that losing someone can leave you a bit weird even 15 years later.  That's just from one death that I should, in hindsight, have seen coming.
I don't really see that with a more profound shock, someone being left with scars after 39 years is at all a stretch.  IMHO many people would simply crack up.

Yes, from a strictly Darwinian point of view, it's a weakness.  However it's not one that I can fault people for - real or imaginary - perhaps because it does strike a little too close to home for me.

[AGE00]

At the end of the day it's easy to look at something like this from an armchair and say that Abel's doing it wrong.  Would you or I do a vastly better job in his place if your life was completely destroyed?  I'm not convinced I would, frankly.  Then again I can recognise quite a few of Abel's flaws in myself.

For someone commenting about the armchair aspects of others, I find it funny that you're implying that others wouldn't have been able to do a better job, or at least tried to.  Believe it or not, people out there have lived in some pretty terrible situations and survived them.  Some of them even, *gasp* learned from them!

Yeah, and sometimes they've gotten themselves and other people killed by trying to act like Bruce Willis when they should've been keeping their mouth shut and their head down. Defaulting to "80's Action Hero" is not always an appropriate response. It's almost never an appropriate response, in fact. In terms of promoting survivability, it's usually up there with such gems as jumping off the roof wearing a Batman cape.

[Mao]

I refer you to strip 422 where it says that the reason that Dan couldn't be found by SAIA was that he was a member of Cyra's clan.  In Abel's Story (Part 2), strip 58, it says that Destania used Cyra's power to hide Aniz.  I assumed that this amounted to same concealment technique used by other members of Cyra's clan.

And that could simply mean that it was something to block them from people inside that building itself, or even only Fa'lina.  You don't know what the extent of that is or how it works.

I am viewing the attitudes of demons and cubi to be very similar to concepts that were common during the medieval period.  Taun and Owona would have no hesitation about going to war if they felt that honor demanded it.  Taun isn't the protector or the guardian, he is The Avenger.  If Fa'lina had turned Aniz over to Zinvth, Taun would feel that the honor of the cubi had been tarnished and vengeance would be required.  If Kria killed Aniz, this might also be viewed as requiring retribution.  (This attitude currently exists in many tribal societies.)  We're talking feuds of the level of Hatfield/McCoy or Capulet/Montague.  Actually, we're talking much deadlier.  You're talking of rational thought and calm discussion, while I'm looking at rage and vengeance.  Take a look at the Balkans over the last hundred years or the feuds between groups in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't see a whole lot of mention of *honor* on those pages, strangely enough.  Nor do I see any mention of some overblown need to wage war to prove one's honor.  Also, Taun is a she.  See the chesticles?  I like how, despite it not being said anywhere and with nothing to back it up, you're claiming that both Taun and Owona are morons who will start massive wars over something as stupid as honor.  That's a *great* way to safeguard one's dwindling and rather beat down race.  No, really.

Edit:

I just took another look at Amber's post.

So Aaryanna and Abel's aggression to eachother, information regarding innerworking of Zinvth politics and SAIA, various other things that could be done in 1-2 updates in Abel's Story will likely instead be done in DMFA proper.

There is an implication that SAIA and Zinvth politics are complicated.  Has anybody considered that Abel may not only have been afraid of the death of himself or his mother, but a full scale war between cubi and Zinvth that would kill many of Abel's friends on both sides.

It's certainly a possibility, but I've not heard it out of his mouth or seen in his thought bubbles.  I've not seen it be mentioned by anyone to him.  Also, you seem to think that this one event is all that spurs my opinion of Abel being a little coward.  I cite his modern day habits of pushing people away and unwillingness to leave his little security blanket of SAIA as but two very obvious ones.

Hmm... Note time!

1) Shunned most of his childhood, physically and vocally abused by every kid in town.

2) Mom and dad, from the looks of it, arguing a lot, said arguments involving Abel and his wings.

While moving to Zinvth helped resolve those two problems a good bit, they would still have a little impact on him.

3) Cindy, the only person that was Abel's sister basically, committed suicide because of the fact she was an adventurer's child.

4) A fear of blood throughout his entire life, and with such severity that he gets physically ill.

5) Two people that were relatively nice to him after Cindy's funeral, Xander and Devin, both died when they get ambushed at a post. Devin dying while Abel sprouted head wings, making Abel believe it was his fault.

6) At home soon after, his mom and pop fight over him being an Incubus, in which his father morphs into Aniz, no longer facading.

7) Aniz hurts May, someone Abel would most likely look up to the most, as she's always been there for him, his support.

8 ) And then another of Abel's friends die. Just when she's about to get married.

9) While feeling like he's the cause of strife for everyone he knows, he suddenly is forced into SAIA. His life changed and ruined at the moment.

10) The finishing blow to it all being the threat to his mom, killing her and using her against me.

(I've probably missed a thing or two, oh well.)

Hmm... Now from my perspective, any normal person would suffer a major mental breakdown with all the bad stuff that happened. And may end up in an asylum.

Is Abel a coward in my eyes? No. No he isn't. He's a saint to me. He's somehow been able to not go insane over how bad his life went. It is understandable how he went into auto-pilot from his first day into the Academy to his mom's death. One's mind tends to shut itself down in extreme amounts of stress. And Abel's mind did just that, shut itself down so his fractured and cracked mind could attempt to repair itself. Crying and loneliness can happen. Hey, you can say that Abel could have developed any sort of Dissociative disorders because of this. I wouldn't hold it against him.

On to the Aniz part: Failing a class does not make one an idiot. It shows one being lazy and not caring. Look an Einstein, he was a genius but failed many classes. Aniz also learned much in his time away from the Academy, becoming more efficient and brutal. He was able to fool Kria Soulstealer, one of the most dangerous Demons there is, and that's not talking about a city full of demons and all sorts of creatures! How long have they lived there? 15 years at least? He's obviously had learned a lot to fool an entire city (Not counting the SAIA folk).

Aary: Yes, she is right in some points to her argument, but how she did it would not help. Coward? That'll just make Abel, who's mind really isn't stable with having to visit his mom on her deathbed (Though it did give some closure, knowing that she loved him and never blamed him), attack her and want to hill her. Abel could have done stuff, but when running on auto-pilot most of the time, hence the realizing that he's been in SAIA for nearly 40 years, one does not think about what should be done.

Disclaimer: I have only taken a few psychology classes, so I am not a source. But with being to multiple psyches and talked with a few, I have a slight grasp on the mind and how easy it can snap under little strain.

Disclaimer:  I've only taken a few as well, Three actually, as they weren't required for my degree and I took them out of pure curiosity.  So I may not have enough to convince you that I'm a bit familiar with the topic. (Oh, and if folks don't believe me, send me the cash and I'll go get a copy of my university transcript.  It's only $40 CAD)

On your first point:  Yes, but that's only one possibility.  There's just as many cases where people who are suffering from trauma are actually galvanized by it.  Not everything breaks folks.  However it often requires the person to take active steps to pull themselves together.  Abel didn't even try to pull himself together.  You can wrap that up and say that "Oooh, it's too hard" and coddle folks like that until they recover on their own.  It's certainly the modern view of how to fix that stuff, but frankly.. given how many folks break down these days and use both the psychology and medicinal fields as a crutch to get through life, I'm going to flat out say it doesn't work all that well.  No one is really getting better.  In fact I think it's because we're coddling people that they aren't.  That's just my view though.

On your second point:  No, but it does set up a little bit of the character.  How do you know that he's become more efficient and brutal?  We've seen him fight a bunch of untrained mooks who don't know the first thing about fighting or even 'cubi.  His most 'efficient' kill was when his mind almost completely snapped.  That's pretty flimsy.  As for fooling them?  They weren't really looking for him now were they?  I don't know if you noticed it, but Kria was able to set up some wards that could hold a far older and far nastier being than Aniz:  Fa'lina.  Beyond that, do you really think that his own kind would be fooled by any tricks that he might pull?

If you've taken any, I think that gives you a significant amount of credibility compared to others. And, your insights do make sense.

Awww, that's cute.  You think no one else has taken any psych courses?

I wouldn't go as far as to say Abel's a saint... his sanity cannot be in any way, shape, or form intact. He's just not psycho... yet. Mao can call him a coward, but due to the degree of mental trauma Abel's been through, Aniz isn't a "Normal 'cubi" to Cookies-and-Cream. He's a specially tailored horror and monster for Abel. I think Abel would stand a better chance confronting Azathoth or Hastur than Aniz as far as keeping his mind intact goes.

Yes, but there's the part.  The coward part.  The part that isn't even trying to overcome his fear.  He'd rather just run and hide from this monster.  Even though he's got a safe place (SAIA) where he can try and shore up his confidence and abilities to do so, he doesn't.  He's paralyzed.  That still makes him a coward in that regard.  No amount of arguing with me on it is going to change my opinion, especially with flimsy arguments and overblown comparrisons.

Honestly, Mao... you call Abel a "coward", yet I don't think Abel has lived for those 375 years he's been at the academy. He has no need for sustenance. He has no need for sleep, or, he can sleep as long as he feels like. He has no obligation to do well in his classes, though they can sort of cope. He doesn't age. Essentially, he's been locked in what could essentially be described as mental stasis since arriving at SAIA. He's had to rebuild his life from scratch, so he now does well in his courses. It's why his attitude is so much different than it was. DMFA's Abel is hardly more AS 1's  Abel than Devin Soulstealer is AS#1 Devin.

Yet others who go there do move on.  Wonder of wonders.  HE put himself in that stasis so he could hide, and I'm not talking about SAIA. No matter how you slice it, he chose to hide himself away and push folks away.  He chose to wallow in fear and self-pity.  Fear of himself.  Fear of his father.  Fear of others.  His choice.  The length of time or where he did it are irrelevent.  Especially since he's still doing it once he gets out of the academy, once he's been forced out of his stasis.

As a recent DMFA arc has demonstrated, Abel is just as mentally unstable as his father.

Abel's not a coward... He's just made some crappy Will saves.

So mental instability covers cowardice?  Now I've seen it all.  Heck, as far as I'm concerned he failed the will saves by not even rolling the dice.

This is true.  However I'm not sure I agree with the premise that everyone can quickly and easily recover from a massive shock with no mental scars, which seems to be what you're saying.
Abel went to a funeral and by the time he came back he'd seen three people die right before his eyes - two of whom he'd known from childhood.  He discovered that his father was criminally insane and that he (Abel) was a monster.  Said father beat him up, kidnapped him and dumped him in a whole campus full of monsters.  Even part of that is the sort of thing that post-traumatic stress disorder or a nervous breakdown is made of.

It could.  I won't deny Abel's possibly got a few screws loose.  However I fail to see how this point is supposed to change my mind that he's a coward.  Maybe it's because I've seen folks who've lived through some horrific stuff and pulled their shit together that I don't buy this post-traumatic stress disorder crap.  It's a crutch.  A cowards crutch.  "I saw some scary and terrible things now coddle me and never let me face any bad things again!"  Sorry, I don't buy it.  You can go ahead and demonize me now, folks, and start screaming about how I'm dishonoring your veterans but I've got a lot of friends in the military (isn't much else to do out this way) and they're pretty well of the same mind too.

Now, I won't claim that I've seen anyone die before my eyes.  But speaking from personal experience I have no problem with the idea that losing someone can leave you a bit weird even 15 years later.  That's just from one death that I should, in hindsight, have seen coming.
I don't really see that with a more profound shock, someone being left with scars after 39 years is at all a stretch.  IMHO many people would simply crack up.

I have.  Several.  In fact, I've had the job of delivering the phone call to let a parent know their child died in a freak accident on campus.  Sure, I was only working as a security guard, but I was the assistant chief and I was on duty at the time.  I wasn't the first responder, but I assure it wasn't long until I was on scene.  That's only *one* example.  Death happens.  It's a natural part of life.  I consider it cowardly alone to try and run from that fact.

Yes, from a strictly Darwinian point of view, it's a weakness.  However it's not one that I can fault people for - real or imaginary - perhaps because it does strike a little too close to home for me.

Some people can take those traumatic events and be galvanized by them.  Others try but fail.  The worst of them, in my opinion, don't even try.  If we're going to base our arguments on sample sizes of others, then there's mine.

Yeah, and sometimes they've gotten themselves and other people killed by trying to act like Bruce Willis when they should've been keeping their mouth shut and their head down. Defaulting to "80's Action Hero" is not always an appropriate response. It's almost never an appropriate response, in fact. In terms of promoting survivability, it's usually up there with such gems as jumping off the roof wearing a Batman cape.

Where did I say that he should run in guns blazing?  Where did I even say that he shouldn't seek alternative methods?  In fact, as I've said many times there are MANY ways to subdue others.  In fact, I scoffed when someone brought up the term Hero.  As for it *never* being the right response?  I'm sorry but I call bullshit.  Sometimes, sadly, you have to fight.  You can say that it doesn't work that way in the real world and I'm going to have to say that I disagree.  I don't like it, I don't long for it but I've been forced into it.  Thanks for trying to make the false comparrison between doing something about a problem and vigilanteism.  Great strawman that one.

So far not one of you has said something that convinces me he's not a coward.  You've given what you feel are justifications for his cowardly behavior and that's fine.  There are just as many justifications for why he shouldn't be a coward or why people should think him one.  Heck, even Amber said both sides are valid, but yet you're all trying to come out and say that mine isn't.  All I'm seeing now is people reaching farther and farther out to try and slip in either straw man aguments or to put me into situations where my opinions can be used to demonize me so  you can put up a rallying call for others to come in and hate on me and simply overwhelm me.  Some of you are even trying to compare the real world to this little fictional one and apply our psychology to a fictional race in an attempt to humanize Abel in such a way that I can be demonized further so you can win by saying: Augh, look at that Mao guy, he hates on vetrans and people who have mental instabilities, he's a bad person so his arguments are invalid.

I'm bored with this and will probably just start trolling this thread now.  Feel free to ban me for it, but frankly this discussion has gotten old and the tears of the Abel fanbois no longer sate me.

[AGE00]

Dude, all you've done from the outset is push this one angle, and you're far from in the minority about it. If I seem to be being contrary, it's because I've made the classic debating error of letting your argument define mine. Personally, I'm neutral. I just thought you and a few others were being harsh, unreasonable and overly demanding, and so I tried to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I acknowledge that I was being a little flippant with my last comment, though. It was certainly not intended to be taken entirely seriously.

[Mao]

Dude, all you've done from the outset is push this one angle, and you're far from in the minority about it. If I seem to be being contrary, it's because I've made the classic debating error of letting your argument define mine. Personally, I'm neutral. I just thought you and a few others were being harsh, unreasonable and overly demanding, and so I tried to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I acknowledge that I was being a little flippant with my last comment, though. It was certainly not intended to be taken entirely seriously.

Harsh and unreasonable?  Like screaming for the death of a character or to have her punched out for speaking her mind?  Herpderp.

Sorry, but it's time for Abel's tongue lashing.

[Turnsky]

Dude, all you've done from the outset is push this one angle, and you're far from in the minority about it. If I seem to be being contrary, it's because I've made the classic debating error of letting your argument define mine. Personally, I'm neutral. I just thought you and a few others were being harsh, unreasonable and overly demanding, and so I tried to offer an alternative viewpoint.

I acknowledge that I was being a little flippant with my last comment, though. It was certainly not intended to be taken entirely seriously.

Harsh and unreasonable?  Like screaming for the death of a character or to have her punched out for speaking her mind?  Herpderp.

Sorry, but it's time for Abel's tongue lashing.

SAIA isn't the yellow submarine, after all. Abel's gotta take his licks like anybody else.

[AGE00]

Harsh and unreasonable?  Like screaming for the death of a character or to have her punched out for speaking her mind?

I'm reasonably confident I've never done that. In fact, I believe I've never even mentioned Aary. Like, ever. I'm not even a hundred percent certain who she is. Like I said earlier, atrocious memory. 

[A. Lurker]

There are many ways to kill without bllod. Strangle them. Posion them. burn them alive, magic includes curshing them under piles of rock, freezing them solid.... MANY MANY Ways...

Sure, there are many ways to kill other people. Tell me, how many of them have you ever actually used?

Because, well, that's essentially what you're asking Abel to do. Forget all notions of civilized behavior and become some sort of vengeance-obsessed vigilante. Some cubi would evidently have no trouble with that -- witness Exhibit A, Aaryanna, right there --, but having grown up as essentially a normal kid among reasonably civilized Beings, Abel simply isn't one of them. Can't really say that I blame him for not wanting to become one, either.

(Let's not forget that this is the same Aary who will, a few hundred years down the timeline, suggest that Dan should practice with his cubi powers by grabbing some random girl off the street and rending her limb from limb -- and while his reaction made for a funny strip, I never once got the vibe that she was simply kidding. Her perspective is at least as skewed as Abel's in its own way.)