A Transformers 2 discussion *SPOILERS*

[thegayhare]

well since the review thread was locked I guess I'm taking something of a risk here but I'm hoping this can be kept civil.

I will say right now this is not a review of the movie.  I'm not a reviewer and I'm prety sure I'd be bad at it

this is just me wanting to talk about certain aspects of the movie that have been brought up in discussion.  As such it will contain spoilers and if you haven't seen the movie I sujest you don't read further.  I really hope this doesn't descend into a flame situation and I know I might be dangerously close to trolling opening a thread like this after the last one was locked.  I hope I'm not out of line.

First a little intro

I rather enjoyed this movie.. was it a great movie? no not by any means but it was an entertaining movie. You don't have to, as some of the more vocal detractors have said, turn off your brain and just enjoy it but it was not high melodrama. And realy who would go into a transformers movie expecting Shakespearean quality.

Maybe it helps that I'm not a fevered transformers fan, I'm not one of those who fondly daydreams of the G1 stories and see's them as the be all and end all of the transformers history... I vaugly remember some of it, and have fond memories of playing with transformers toys. But I haven't obsessed I've more or less enjoyed the various retellings as the transformers come back to tv every few years, Robots in disguise, beast wars, energon, and even the latest animated series that so many people seemed to hate for it's animeish art style. I myself rather enjoyed it the stories were interesting seeing optimous not as a great leader, but rather a troubled bot who had the potential to become a great leader. Not in charge of an army of seasoned warriors but rather a small rag tag repair crew.

now for something I rather liked in this one
Soundwave as a com sat. that was a good choice and and frankly one I hadn't even thought of.  It seemed very fitting and the fact that they also included a similar voice to the original and the ability to launch smaller bots such as Ravage was a cool shout out to the g1 story line

now onto the problems some folks have mentioned

the sophomoric humor spread through out the movie... the dogs, Wheelie and the girls leg, Devastator's balls.

Yes at times it did get old, and yes it was low brow but so what. So are a lot of people or else "Truck Nuts" wouldn't be so damn popular. and Devastator was made of construction vehicles , part of his disguise was a solid metal wreaking ball and ball crane hook. they had to be placed somewhere in the finished machine the fact that there location was played up for laughs doesn't changed that.

granted this doesn't mean it was a great chioce on there part but hey its a valid one that they could and did make.  hell most of the latest comedies use this brand of humor almost none stop.

Jetfire's Cane and Accent

Personaly it seems perfectly logical to me.
Jetfire had been alive for centuries longer then any of the other transformers in the film. He was old. the fact that he's a machine doesn't change that. he was in disrepair and had been dormant. It seems that part of the transformers systems include the include some measure of almost automatic reconfiguring of them selves based on there disguises. seen mostly in bumblebee crying windshield washer fluid or peeing coolant. So if a transformer was having trouble walking and the damage was beyond it's automatic systems immediate repair skills the thought that it would fashion a crutch or cane from it's disguise isnt that far fetched. How is the cane from part of the landing strut any different from the swords from plan wings or serrated whips from caterpillar treads. automatic systems constructing tools to suit the moment from the materials at hand.

Now for his accent... well what of it. from the evidence in the movie seekers had been on earth longer then the others. decades maybe even centuries. He'd probably heard the accent at some point and liked it. Why would an alien machine talk that way? well why not?  Granted that's not the best explanation but when it comes down too it the transformers are individuals.  Why does starscream sound like he does, why does soundwave or optimus or iron hide.  As they become assimilated to earth they can to pick there own voices,  they make decisions on how they will be perceived by those around them.  It's not just in there voices but in there look.  There choice of vehicular disguises which in a few chars change as the story progresses.  BB in the first and the twins in this one.

Another question is Why are all human machines hostile when turned into transformers.

This is a two part answer to me and while not explicitly explained in either movie seems quite logical to me. One is simply the shock of awareness. these new creatures spring into life in an instant. one moment they are unthinking machines and the next they are suddenly self aware and surrounded by a strange world of motion and light thats got to be frightening and unnerving so they lash out. Second in the first movie it was explained that a number of modern advancements were reverse engineered from megatons body not the simple machines like motors and pistons screws and the like that have been around for ages but rather the complex microcircuits. so maybe something in these reverse engineered designs contains some trace of genetic memory of the decepticon cruel, and violent nature.

And how could sound wave seemingly see everything in the world

it seems logical to me that as an intelligent com sat once he hacked into one military satellite in the network he'd be able to use that link to spread his influence through the whole sat network. Tapping into that network of powerfull sats he'd easily be able to see anything they could and also be able to keep nest sat blind such as was seen in the last battle

if you have something about the movie you'd like to talk about or some counter argument you'd like to make on any of my points feel free to post but please be civil.

I know these are just a few bits and peices of the movie but It's late here and well I may have expended to much brain power on the subject all ready...  so long

[Janus Whitefurr]

I'm just going to chop and paste my spoiler-laden rambling from my journal, which I wrote up immediately after seeing the movie myself. A fellow opinionation, if you will. Contains well, spoilers - but TGH put that in the thread header so... yeah. *ahem*

While some might argue it's your typical Michael Bay film with plenty of special effects and explosions, that doesn't detract from it being a highly entertaining film with a plot that's not half bad. The drama and action tended to balanced out rather well with comedy and humour in the beginning - if you're anything like me, some of it might grate as a little too silly, like the hash cookie moment. But midway through the movie it switches into high gear and we get action and drama all the way to the end. There -were- a lot of nameless (unless you look at the cast list / toys, I imagine) mooks on the Decepticon side of things, and you didn't really see much naming aside from one-off moments on the Autobot side, either. We had a few new characters on either side of the field, and there wasn't much time for character development which I imagine would be more present in articles like wikipedia and background information about the film. Either way, we have new Autobots, new Decepticons, and a new story about the ominous Fallen, all ready to come back and whip the planet's arse.

There is a lot of human interaction in the film - Sam's relationship with his girlfriend, his relationship with his parents, the new friends he finds at college. And of course, lots of political concern about the Autobots, including one particular fellow whose name was either Galloway or Calloway, I couldn't hear it well - who serves the nonbelieving bureaucratic asshole role that Simmons filled in the first film. But this tends to serve as backdrop to the action and the rest of the plot, though it is not to be dismissed. Particularly as during college Sam runs into a girl who is totally hot for him, and she turns out to be a god-damned Pretender shell for a Decepticon. There's also his roomie, who gets caught up in the action and dragged along for the ride, and the roomie's internet website foe "Robotmaster" who turns out to be... well... Simmons. Who operates a deli with his mother, and is still the best conspiracy nut ever conceived. The poor roomie is freaking out by film's end but Simmons is balls-to-the-wall hardcore about it. Speaking of balls-to-the-wall, Lennox is also back with the rest of his team, and they form NEST - an Autobot/human combination strike force. But I must digress, and indulge in some meandering about the new characters.

For being hickish, juvenile stereotypes, the duo of Mudflap and Skids certainly lightened a few moments here and there, and even had a nice dramatic moment near the end of the film where they promptly try to whip the crap out of the live action version of everyone's favourite Constructicon gestalt Devastator. Poor Devastator only got his moments during the grand finale, combining together in order to beat up Autobots and smash down an Egyptian pyramid concealing the big bad macguffin of the film. Then resident psycho Simmons from the first film radios a destroyer off the coast, which promptly shoots Devastator's head and arm off from several kilometres away with an honest to god railgun, though it looked more like a wave motion cannon. Special mention also goes to the old fan favourite of Soundwave, who in live action continuity is a stealthy communications satellite who spends the entire movie in orbit, scanning information and transmitting it to the other Decepticons. He even deploys Ravage for further infiltration methods, and does not engage in direct combat himself at any point in the film. Which of course leaves him up in space and out of the way for potential business with a sequel, which is no doubt going to happen as one saw Megatron and Starscream retreat at the end of the film rather than continue the fight, when it wasn't going their way.

Also, Jetfire, the canktankerous ex-Decepticon SR-71. Just think of Kup if you're familiar with the classic cartoon version of the film, just with a lot more old man irritation and attitude thrown in. With a bit of forgetfulness and a cane with which he ends up beating the crap out of a few of the nameless mooks near the film's end. He gets ganked by Scorponok, who spent the entire film hiding in the desert which they just happened to be fighting in, and meets his end when the wounded Jetfire just punches his head flat against the ground with much annoyance. The last portion of the film is filled with much violence and robots getting wounded and dying. However, true to what fans might call "habit" if they're familiar with multiple Transformers continuities, Optimus Prime meets his end midway through the film. He does this in positively awesome fashion, facing off in a three-on-one fight against Megatron, Starscream, and an unnamed helicopter which may or may not have been a resurrected Blackout.

Oh, thanks to the fragments of the Allspark, they revived Megs, in case you were wondering. So it being Megs/Starscream/Blackout isn't too far-fetched. I'm pretty sure the pieces are gone now. I think.

Either way, with a positively brutal battle and a defiant "I'll take you ALL on!", Optimus promptly goes to town on the trio but is eventually overwhelmed, and goes down after Megatron shanks him from behind, through the chest. Drama ensues (our resident bureaucratic asshole shuts down NEST and disrespects Optimus' corpse), references to the Matrix (looking only vaguely like its movie counterpart) are made, and the latter half of the movie is spent in a race to find it so its unknown energy can be used to revive Optimus. Thanks to his prior contact with the fragments of the Allspark, Sam is hallucinating ancient Cybertronian symbols, which when deciphered with the help of Jetfire lead them to the Matrix, and without revealing all the drama that happens in between, to the revival of Optimus Prime. The Matrix gets ganked five minutes later to power the plot macguffin, and Jetfire suicides himself to provide Prime with extra parts, so now we have a jet-powered robot truck that promptly flies off to lay the smackdown on the bad guys and win the day - by naturally blowing up the device and the Matrix with it. I mean, after a drag-down knock-out fight, everyone's favourite Autobot rips the Fallen's face-armour off than FISTO-ganks him from behind, exactly how Megatron ganked him.

It's not "one shall stand, one shall fall" but "I rise. You fall." is a nice Optimus line dramatically delivered line to the dying Fallen. The movie ends pretty much how the first one did, with Optimus giving his grand speech to the sky (thanking Sam for saving his life) and being noble about it as he always is. There's certainly enough for sequel fodder, and while one could say the movie has issues balancing its lighthearted moments with crazy-ass action, it is still a perfectly acceptable action film and I'd heartily recommend it to anyone who enjoyed the first one. My only real criticism is the mooks, mostly - Decepticons and Autobots out of the woodwork, and all you get is usually a passing reference to their names, though the bots are all center stage when the action breaks out.

But yes. Highly acceptable entertainment. GIANT ROBOTS WHEE!

(Why are you letting that little robot hump your leg?)

[Teroniss]

Err, the Blackout lookalike in this movie was credited as being called Grindor, played by Frank Welker. (Aka the helicopter mini-bot from the Armada series.)

Also, if you remember, he was compatible with Optimus in that the two would merge to create a larger bot to fight things like Astrotrain and other larger bots in the Armada series as well.

Lastly, in the first movie, Prime did his "One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall" speech when fighting Megatron, which he just changed up in this second movie -.-

[Janus Whitefurr]

Credited, yes, but so far as I can recall no one actually said the name in the film. He wasn't the only one - none of the Constructicons were named onscreen, only Devastator was. Having to sit to the credits or do research to learn everyone's names in a movie - not cool.

Armada (and its kin Energon/Cybertron) were a collective group that I actually didn't like all that much. I was aware some of the Japanese series (they're created from) do the whole "Optimus can combine" thing, but.... well... yeah. Not familiar. Cool, though.

It was less a speech in this one, more a badass one-liner after he successfully ganked the Fallen. Speaking of that guy, seeing Megatron in the Starscreamish "serving your leader" role was.... weird. Really weird. I don't think I've ever seen it happen in the few continuities I'm familiar with.

[thegayhare]

Credited, yes, but so far as I can recall no one actually said the name in the film. He wasn't the only one - none of the Constructicons were named onscreen, only Devastator was. Having to sit to the credits or do research to learn everyone's names in a movie - not cool.

well honestly we don't know if Devastator's component vehicles were transformers in there own right.  they were never shown as individual robots  they went right from vehical mod to devistator

and every action film has it's namless mooks, they can't all get an on screen intro especialy not all the decepticons several of who don't seem to have bothered to learn english.   It's just that as a TF movie they have a massive list of names they can give the mooks

It was less a speech in this one, more a badass one-liner after he successfully ganked the Fallen. Speaking of that guy, seeing Megatron in the Starscreamish "serving your leader" role was.... weird. Really weird. I don't think I've ever seen it happen in the few continuities I'm familiar with.

well There was the number of times over the series he'd become subservient to unicron


Also on my journal Shadrock said this.. and I felt it might be good to share

One thing that does bug me in the movie is how prime after all is done and the fallen has... well fallen, prime merely shrugs and discards Jetfire's sacrifice. (it hit me kind of like prime almost had a "hmm that was fun. What's on tv" attitude.)

To me the Jet fire fall off at the end was more along the lines of it being a temporary patch job in the first place. It was a battle feild upgrade as it were. It looked like the autobot combat medics used some sorto of magnettic feild to intgrate the parts into prime's system.

While it gave a much needed power boost to Prime it also might have required alot of effort to maintain and could have even been a painful or uncomfortable situation. So once the battle was over and the danger past the effort and energy needed to maintain the connection might have been to much for the newly resurected prime. Think of a solder full armor, with say chem suit and hard trauma plates. needed in certian situations but not the thing to wear all the time.

Also there might have been some personal revulsion on Optimus's part. Prime is a soldier and a pragmatist but he also revers life. While Jetfire did what was needed to save all of earth and carry the day against the enemy the thought of wearing the flesh of a fellow transformer, especially an ancient and revered seeker might have been well revolting to Prime. and the shrugging off of Jet fires parts could be seen as the mechanical equivalent of his flesh crawling at the thought now that the moment of emergancy is passed.

[Janus Whitefurr]

and every action film has it's namless mooks, they can't all get an on screen intro especialy not all the decepticons several of who don't seem to have bothered to learn english.   It's just that as a TF movie they have a massive list of names they can give the mooks

True, but I guess I'm just thinking of how the few in the first movie were all named, characterised, you had some idea of who they were and what they did. And here we have nameless armies - at least some of the Autobots got a one-off "Hey (name), do this!", you know?

well There was the number of times over the series he'd become subservient to unicron

I was thinking of saying this, but as I'm selective about the continuities I like, my only Unicron experience is the original movie. Where he's Galvatron, and kept in line with the evil red glow of mind control. As opposed to willing servitude.

The entire fragment about Jetfire

My perception of that was Prime had used Jetfire's sacrifice to save the day - you actually see him lose some of the components during the big fight (one of the boosters goes flying, I'm pretty sure). But when it was all said and done and he was shown at the end without them, it was that they had removed the attached parts to give Jetfire a proper sendoff/burial/Transformers equivalent.

Though yeah, fusing someone else's parts to your body -would- be pretty ghoulish seeming, now I think about it...

[thegayhare]

Having checked the pages a number of constructicons apeared in the movie.  But they weren't part of Devistator  instead they were fighting while he was climbing the paramid

I still can't find a name for the razor bot that stole the shard... but I did find out that sam's homicidal toaster has a name Ejector


The bot in the best position to have done the shout out names to the gathering decepticons would have been Soundwave in an effort to rally the troops.  but I don't think they wanted to do that because it may have seemed to much like what happened in the first movie when they were moving the cube.

[Janus Whitefurr]

I still can't find a name for the razor bot that stole the shard... but I did find out that sam's homicidal toaster has a name Ejector

Wikipedia calls it "Reedman" - and the general fantheory seems to be that it and the little bug-ball-things that Ravage vomited up were nods to the Insecticons. As for Ejector... well. I admit, I giggled.

The bot in the best position to have done the shout out names to the gathering decepticons would have been Soundwave in an effort to rally the troops. 

I was actually expecting it, but the most you get is him reporting the location of the boy and Starscream acknowledging it in Cybertronian like the first movie. Speaking of that... why -was- Soundwave talking in English? For our benefit? Laziness with Cybertronian subtitles?

Will anyone else besides us two fans talk about the movie~? *cough*

[thegayhare]

Wikipedia calls it "Reedman" - and the general fantheory seems to be that it and the little bug-ball-things that Ravage vomited up were nods to the Insecticons. As for Ejector... well. I admit, I giggled.

I'm tempted to but the Ejector toy (yes I checked he has a toy) just for the hell of it

That would make sense since it was Ravage out side the door when Sam found the spy insect.  Maybe they were a type of decepticon parisite with a hive mind.  Basicly ravage has robo fleas

[Teroniss]

I still can't find a name for the razor bot that stole the shard... but I did find out that sam's homicidal toaster has a name Ejector

Wikipedia calls it "Reedman" - and the general fantheory seems to be that it and the little bug-ball-things that Ravage vomited up were nods to the Insecticons. As for Ejector... well. I admit, I giggled.

The bot in the best position to have done the shout out names to the gathering decepticons would have been Soundwave in an effort to rally the troops. 

I was actually expecting it, but the most you get is him reporting the location of the boy and Starscream acknowledging it in Cybertronian like the first movie. Speaking of that... why -was- Soundwave talking in English? For our benefit? Laziness with Cybertronian subtitles?

Will anyone else besides us two fans talk about the movie~? *cough*

I think they broke protocol with Soundwave cause they wanted fans to hear how they tried to keep his voice accurate to the original, giving him the harmonic, song like voice he had in the cartoon.

[Keleth]

I never seen this movie yet Probably wont' till it's out on DVD.

I seen the 86 movie, some of the beast machines, a couple of episodes of G1 (Beam. . Flail? What the hell)

And I can say this, While these new movies 'make no sense'    The old series/episodes didn't either.


But I still enjoyed them anyways, Wooo giant robots :o

[rabid_fox]

I am not a clever man and as such enjoy a lot of movieshows that get slated.

Except 'X-Files: I want to believe". Lawks.

[Caswin]

It needed less penultimate battle and more everything else.  Except for the strange fixation on dog-humping and male genitalia jokes, that can go, too.  But everything else should have been expanded on at the expense of the big, fat desert rumble, which would itself have been better for being cut down.

The Maestro rules all.

[JackLee1978]

Things I liked
1.Optimus kicking some serious A$$.
2.Frank Welker, who was wrongfully ignored in the first film, voices three characters. Reedman (who stole the military's piece of the All Spark), Devastator, and Soundwave, though he used his Dr. Claw/Darkseid voice instead of the one from the series.
3.Jetfire, Sideswipe and the Arcee triplets.
4.More screentime for Starscream.

Things I hated
1.The humans have more screentime then they needed.
2.Pesci-bot (Wheelie) and the Wayons twins (Mudflap and Skids) getting more screentime then they deserved.
3.Sideswipe and the Arcee triplets underused.

[Janus Whitefurr]

2.Frank Welker, who was wrongfully ignored in the first film, voices three characters. Reedman (who stole the military's piece of the All Spark), Devastator, and Soundwave, though he used his Dr. Claw/Darkseid voice instead of

Otherwise known as the exact voice he uses for Soundwave, without the voice modulation present from G1. Why no, I'm NOT nerdy about the early Transformers cartoon, why do you ask? >>

[King Of Hearts]

Pesci bot? I thought he was just normal New Yorker... admittedly it was Buscemi that came to my head first.

[Rakala]

My opinion on the movie is short and sweet. The gigantic battles were cool, but Shila LaBeuf (SP?) will never be cool enough to be Optimus Prime's sidekick. While I'm at it he'll never be cool enough to be Indiana Jone's sidekick. It had more giant robot battles than the first one, but the Transformer's, who I would remind the film's creators that the movie is named after, get almost none of the story to themselves. I was dissapointed in the end that imho the best scene in the movie was Sam freaking out in the class and dorm rooms.

On a side note, Sam Witwicky is Robot Jesus. He brought robot's back from the dead, sacrificed himself and then raised again after going to robot heaven, and has twice defeated great evil which in the hands of somebody who looks into things too deeply could see an allegory for Satan.

[Kipiru]

Things I liked
1.Optimus kicking some serious A$$.
2.Frank Welker, who was wrongfully ignored in the first film, voices three characters. Reedman (who stole the military's piece of the All Spark), Devastator, and Soundwave, though he used his Dr. Claw/Darkseid voice instead of the one from the series.
3.Jetfire, Sideswipe and the Arcee triplets.
4.More screentime for Starscream.

Things I hated
1.The humans have more screentime then they needed.
2.Pesci-bot (Wheelie) and the Wayons twins (Mudflap and Skids) getting more screentime then they deserved.
3.Sideswipe and the Arcee triplets underused.

Right, agree with points 1,3 and 4 form the "things I like" list. Point2- couldn't care less- who is this guy anyway. only agree with point 3 of "hate" list- they should have given them at least a better intro. As for points 1 and 2- The movie is great because of the hilarious dialog amongst the human characters, without it the movie would have ended up as a ridiculous effects show off and nothing more. And Wheelie and the twins were immense fun, I can't think of a singe boring scene with them, so why cut them.

[JackLee1978]

Right, agree with points 1,3 and 4 form the "things I like" list. Point2- couldn't care less- who is this guy anyway.

Frank Welker voiced Megatron/Galvatron, Soundwave, Skywarp, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Rumble, Frenzy, Ravage, Ratbat, Mirage and Trailbreaker in the original Transformers. He also reprised his voice as Megatron on Robot Chicken and Family Guy.

His most famous non-Transformer characters are Nibbler (Futurama), Doctor Claw (Inspector Gadget), Ray Stantz (The Real Ghostbusters), Feddy Jones (Scooby Doo), Iceman (Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends) and Darkseid (Superfriends).

[Caswin]

Right, agree with points 1,3 and 4 form the "things I like" list. Point2- couldn't care less- who is this guy anyway.

Frank Welker voiced Megatron/Galvatron, Soundwave, Skywarp, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Rumble, Frenzy, Ravage, Ratbat, Mirage and Trailbreaker in the original Transformers. He also reprised his voice as Megatron on Robot Chicken and Family Guy.

His most famous non-Transformer characters are Nibbler (Futurama), Doctor Claw (Inspector Gadget), Ray Stantz (The Real Ghostbusters), Feddy Jones (Scooby Doo), Iceman (Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends) and Darkseid (Superfriends).

Among his less-famous roles, I might add: Quite possibly every cartoon you've ever seen since about 1970.

[Kipiru]

Right, agree with points 1,3 and 4 form the "things I like" list. Point2- couldn't care less- who is this guy anyway.

Frank Welker voiced Megatron/Galvatron, Soundwave, Skywarp, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Rumble, Frenzy, Ravage, Ratbat, Mirage and Trailbreaker in the original Transformers. He also reprised his voice as Megatron on Robot Chicken and Family Guy.

His most famous non-Transformer characters are Nibbler (Futurama), Doctor Claw (Inspector Gadget), Ray Stantz (The Real Ghostbusters), Feddy Jones (Scooby Doo), Iceman (Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends) and Darkseid (Superfriends).

Holy ****! Awesome guy!  Still- not someone I care for in the movie- if it was animted, sure! But as I said, it's not the lines of the robots that build up the funny in this movie.