04/05/10 [AS2#96] - A Man of Few Words

[Psychedelic Mushroom]

Trazz, change that avatar pic. You're giving me a headache, not a seizure.

Aye. I get vertigo easily from pictures like that.  I don't like it when teh room moves... Also my friend suffers from seizures sometimes so it's not a subject someone should toy around with like that.   Jus' saying. I don't want people to get hurt. 

[Trazz]

Trazz, change that avatar pic. You're giving me a headache, not a seizure.

Aye. I get vertigo easily from pictures like that.   I don't like it when teh room moves... Also my friend suffers from seizures sometimes so it's not a subject someone should toy around with like that.  Jus' saying. I don't want people to get hurt.  

Sorry, I'll make it switch more slowly ._.

*EDIT*

Ah screw it, GIMP is being evil right now, won't let me modify the frame delay... Guess I'm goin' without an avatar until I fix it >.>

[Psychedelic Mushroom]

Sorry, I'll make it switch more slowly ._.
[/quote]

Appreciated.  And thank you.

[demecowen]

Aary had every right to express her opinion of Abel (lackof) action since she was offering to help Abel have the chance to rescue his mother and give Aniz stern warning, at least, to never mess with his family and life. It more than likely she told Abel exact same thing in nicer way and with pretty slideshow while Abel still turn her down, so I understand why she might be angry at him.

For those that say it not her business here two thing to think about: 1 Benefit of doubt(since I see no evidence that Aary has agenda in helping Abel) she is just helping a fellow cubi in their time of need, lot of people stick their noses in other people business to help, like helping people in car crash or someone getting bully or threaten. 2. Suppose Aniz come back after his ban his lifted and there reunion turn into an out brawl in SAIA wouldn't it not be her business then?

Abel action is disappointing to me he pushing people that want to help him, to they deserve that? And he think that good idea in the end. Why?

[Anker Steadfast]

If a serious brawl starts in SAIA, I'm fairly sure there's a certain Pink Poodle who wants to play as well.
Any such brawl will probably end ... quickly.

 

[Scarydragon]

Hot damn, there certainly is one hell of a shit-storm brewing over all of this.

From most opinions I've read, it seems that people are assuming one hell of a lot. Abel has been whining the whole time at SAIA, or Aary is goading Abel to do this and that and the other thing, or X amount of people would do this and that about Aniz for Abel.

From what I've gathered, Abel has gone through SAIA without saying much at all, especially about his particular situation. Granted, there is a large chunk of time that we miss out on due to the "years later..." story device, but it seems that Abel's story has gotten around by word of mouth, not by Abel whining and crying about it.

Aary is goading Abel, but as for why and to what end, we simply just don't know yet. Maybe she's jealous of him and is lashing out. Maybe she sees him as unworthy of the more fortunate parts of his life. Maybe she knew his mother/Aniz personally and therefore has more of a stake in the situation.
We just don't know yet.

And as for Abel's potential army of allies ready and willing to drop everything and help him take down Aniz, I'm not sure that Aniz is currently a big enough threat to garner such a response.
Yes, there is the revenge/righteous option, track down Aniz, make him squirm, then kill/imprison him for eons. But really, which is more important, hunting down one crazed incubus, or governing a city, or maintaining a school full of Cubi. Sometimes, revenge isn't enough.

As for myself, I'm a bit on the fence.
Yes Abel is a coward, but I myself can't fault him for it (being a bit of a coward myself.)
Yes Abel should get over his fears, but it's completely up to him if and when he does.
Yes Aary is a total bitch, but she's right, he's been wallowing for too long.
Yes Aary has gone about saying this totally wrong, she's being nosy and opinionated, but that's just how she is. That's our Aary after all.

As for how I think the story should go, I'm going to leave that up to Amber, it is her story after all.

P.S. I've written this while under the influence of fatigue, so I'm sure I've forgotten at least half of my original point, and misconstrued most other people's comments to mean something other than what they said.

[TheZombie]

I think one thing that people are forgetting is that Aniz dropped Abel off at the academy in the first place.  I think that he fully expected and likely even hoped that Abel would get training and allies for some yet unknown purpose.

I mean it's pretty obvious that he is trying to raise an army via polygamy.

[Anker Steadfast]

On a sidenote, it might be that abel really would like to have some siblings and therefore isn't all that opposed to what his father does, but only to *how* his father goes about it. ie. being a complete and uncaring father "monster".

[Tapewolf]

On a sidenote, it might be that abel really would like to have some siblings and therefore isn't all that opposed to what his father does, but only to *how* his father goes about it. ie. being a complete and uncaring father "monster".

He's also been briefed on the fact that Aniz was just some guy who went crazy after losing his entire clan and breaking up with his girlfriend.  I'd like to think that this is one reason he hasn't taken steps against Aniz, but who knows...

[SoWhatIfImFurry]

And now for something compleatly different....

PIE!!! 

[Anker Steadfast]

And now for something compleatly different....

PIE!!! 

No no no no - you're supposed to say "a man with 3 buttocks!"

[Jairus]

And now for something compleatly different....

PIE!!! 

No no no no - you're supposed to say "a man with 3 buttocks!"

He's not here yet.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I realise this is a bit late, but I ran across some music which fits with what Abel is up to, to a surprising degree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJ9dVo-jv4

[Scow2]

Okay... I need to point this out: There was no way for Abel to save his mother from death because she died of OLD AGE, not Aniz. Stopping/Killing Aniz would not stop May from dying of old age anyway.


This one needs to be directed at Danman's comments: There is no indication that Abel ever wangsted about his problems. He's been indecisive, apathetic, and passive... the true symptoms of Clinical Depression. Rather than tell everyone about his problems, he hasn't told anyone about anything. In fact, the only person he ever talks to is Mink, simply because he won't leave him alone and isn't confrontational, and even then he only answers in a reactionary manner that tells no more than necessary to politely discourage further questioning. He's not bothering anyone, and he's free to live in his self-made isolation chamber for as long as he's allowed to.

Abel may be a coward, and Aaryanna may have the right to call him out on it, but it doesn't change the fact she's being a total bitch about it, nor does it change the fact her last three monologues are a form of intentional harassment.

Here are some pertinent questions:

What will dealing with Aniz do to improve Abel's life? Right now, he has no reason to bother affiliating with or worrying about Aniz. He has no reason to revisit that part of his life.

Why should anyone be bothered that Abel is choosing to live a self-destructive life of antisocialism that affects nobody but himself and those who honestly care about him? Mink is trying to help Abel socialize because he cares. Aary's bothing Abel because she's miffed he's not trying to help Destania's revenge plot.

Why is Aniz Abel's responsibility? May is dead, there is nothing Abel can do about it anymore, there was no way for that eventuality to be truly averted, and Aniz is now loose on a world Abel has no claims on anymore.

I could respect Mao Laoren's opinion on Abel's so-called cowardice if he'd get off his God-damned high-horse "Holy Than Thou" attitude that bears uncanny resemblance to Aaryanna's, and frequent implications that those who question his "almighty morally-superior viewpoint" are also cowards deserving "NO RESPECT! NO SYMPATHY" (Please don't make me dig through this and the past through stages to find said statements... there are too many of them.)

Abel's response particularly irks Aary and Mao Laoren because he's not denied the accusations leveled at him. In fact, his "Whatever" response is a short hand way of him saying: "No contest. You may be right, but I don't care. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it but except worked up and look like an ass."

[boots]

Okay, that's enough.


Scow2. Thou Shalt Not Make Personal Attacks. Or Else.

I don't give a damn how angry you are, rule 2 says "Do Not"; don't fuck with me on this, or I shall demonstrate, briefly, why you shouldn't.

Enough. Don't make me come back.

... That goes for anyone else who feels they can make cheap shots and get away with it, as well. I'm watching all of you.

[Darkmoon]

*makes note of Scow2's warning in the admin logs*

[Ghostwish]

I'm just gonna wait for the twist of the century when Abel and Aary hookup.

Oh, the bricks that shall be shat...

[AGE00]

Two thoughts.

One, I don't think this situation is nearly as complex as everyone is making it out to be. Abel's behaviour doesn't conform with what Aary expects or believes to be appropriate, so she's verbally abusing him to punish him for challenging her worldview and making her feel all uncomfortable. It's the most basic mechanism underlying peer pressure. Logic and moral principle have nothing to do with it. It's just dumb instinct, intended to encourage cohesion in a social group, and it's of no more philosophical import than the shrieking of apes or the snarling of wolves. Everyone just shouts at whoever they think is "doing it wrong", and the one's that get shouted at the most either fall in line or get driven out.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a problem that you can't run away from. Or, rather, there is no problem that can't be solved by removing yourself entirely from it's area of effect. Whether or not you're physically capable of doing so is another question entirely.

[Arcblade]

Two thoughts.

One, I don't think this situation is nearly as complex as everyone is making it out to be. Abel's behaviour doesn't conform with what Aary expects or believes to be appropriate, so she's verbally abusing him to punish him for challenging her worldview and making her feel all uncomfortable. It's the most basic mechanism underlying peer pressure. Logic and moral principle have nothing to do with it. It's just dumb instinct, intended to encourage cohesion in a social group, and it's of no more philosophical import than the shrieking of apes or the snarling of wolves. Everyone just shouts at whoever they think is "doing it wrong", and the one's that get shouted at the most either fall in line or get driven out.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a problem that you can't run away from. Or, rather, there is no problem that can't be solved by removing yourself entirely from it's area of effect. Whether or not you're physically capable of doing so is another question entirely.

That's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all? 

[Pvblivs]

That's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all?

He seems to be saying that neither Abel nor Aaryanna  is basing his actions on logic or moral principles -- not, as you seem to be interpreting, that they never matter in anything.

[SoWhatIfImFurry]

Okay... I need to point this out: There was no way for Abel to save his mother from death because she died of OLD AGE, not Aniz. Stopping/Killing Aniz would not stop May from dying of old age anyway.


This one needs to be directed at Danman's comments: There is no indication that Abel ever wangsted about his problems. He's been indecisive, apathetic, and passive... the true symptoms of Clinical Depression. Rather than tell everyone about his problems, he hasn't told anyone about anything. In fact, the only person he ever talks to is Mink, simply because he won't leave him alone and isn't confrontational, and even then he only answers in a reactionary manner that tells no more than necessary to politely discourage further questioning. He's not bothering anyone, and he's free to live in his self-made isolation chamber for as long as he's allowed to.

Abel may be a coward, and Aaryanna may have the right to call him out on it, but it doesn't change the fact she's being a total bitch about it, nor does it change the fact her last three monologues are a form of intentional harassment.

Here are some pertinent questions:

What will dealing with Aniz do to improve Abel's life? Right now, he has no reason to bother affiliating with or worrying about Aniz. He has no reason to revisit that part of his life.

Why should anyone be bothered that Abel is choosing to live a self-destructive life of antisocialism that affects nobody but himself and those who honestly care about him? Mink is trying to help Abel socialize because he cares. Aary's bothing Abel because she's miffed he's not trying to help Destania's revenge plot.

Why is Aniz Abel's responsibility? May is dead, there is nothing Abel can do about it anymore, there was no way for that eventuality to be truly averted, and Aniz is now loose on a world Abel has no claims on anymore.

I could respect Mao Laoren's opinion on Abel's so-called cowardice if he'd get off his God-damned high-horse "Holy Than Thou" attitude that bears uncanny resemblance to Aaryanna's, and frequent implications that those who question his "almighty morally-superior viewpoint" are also cowards deserving "NO RESPECT! NO SYMPATHY" (Please don't make me dig through this and the past through stages to find said statements... there are too many of them.)

Abel's response particularly irks Aary and Mao Laoren because he's not denied the accusations leveled at him. In fact, his "Whatever" response is a short hand way of him saying: "No contest. You may be right, but I don't care. And there's not a damn thing you can do about it but except worked up and look like an ass."

FINALLY!! I was WAITING for someone to understand! It dosen't matter now what Abel could or couldn't have done... Because May's DEAD, and there's nothing anyone can do about it!!!

Now that that's out of the way, let's address the real issue here that's buggin' all of us. Now that May's dead, what's Abel gonna do now? Seek revenge? Try to live a somewhat normal life? Like what Darren's ghost said to him in his sleep, "What now?"

Okay, that's enough.


Scow2. Thou Shalt Not Make Personal Attacks. Or Else.

I don't give a damn how angry you are, rule 2 says "Do Not"; don't fuck with me on this, or I shall demonstrate, briefly, why you shouldn't.

Enough. Don't make me come back.

... That goes for anyone else who feels they can make cheap shots and get away with it, as well. I'm watching all of you.

Wait, since I just agreed with him, does that mean I'm in trouble to? *Cowers bellow ban-hammer*

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Now that that's out of the way, let's address the real issue here that's buggin' all of us. Now that May's dead, what's Abel gonna do now? Seek revenge? Try to live a somewhat normal life? Like what Darren's ghost said to him in his sleep, "What now?"

Darren? Oh, you mean Devin.

Hrm. I don't think that was Devin's ghost, though. It morphed into Destania at the end.

Wait, since I just agreed with him, does that mean I'm in trouble to? *Cowers bellow ban-hammer*

No, you're not in trouble too for agreeing with him. You're in (a bit of) trouble for not suitably trimming the quotes in your post, thereby making it seem like you might be thinking that cheap shots at other forum-goers might be acceptable.

You might want to trim the quote to just the part that you're agreeing with. After all, we -can- all just scroll up and read the previous post entirely, if we want. Just a suggestion, mind. You're welcome to keep being obscure and obnoxious, if you want to find out how we deal with that... ;-]

[SoWhatIfImFurry]

Ah, thanks!

And yeah, I realized that it was Devin just when I hit the post button. Raggle Fraggle my brain are not working...

[Naldru]

That's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all?

He seems to be saying that neither Abel nor Aaryanna  is basing his actions on logic or moral principles -- not, as you seem to be interpreting, that they never matter in anything.

Moral principles can be slippery in that morals are what you believe are right.  (Alternatively, it can be what somebody feels is right where the person feels that they have right to tell you what you should feel is right.  This would apply to religious leaders and some politicians.  That way, anyone who disagrees with them is automatically immoral.)

Some feel that taking revenge and/or dueling is immoral.
Some feel that not taking revenge and/or dueling is immoral.

Ethics is what a group has decided represents proper behavior.  According to military ethics:
You can't kill somebody with poison gas unless they use poison gas first.
You can shoot them in the head.

Law is what a political unit has decided that you must do.

All parties may be acting morally according to their own set of values.

Acting legally may require one to take actions that you feel are unethical and/or immoral.
Some businessmen seen to feel that it is ethical and moral to act illegally.

It gets complicated.

[Anker Steadfast]

Insert Words of lliearch here, use a proper booming voice!

Dude!

You have a Big Bad account, I'm totally envious!
It needs a kickass avatar picture though, like, like ..



But smaller .. y'know ?

I'm just gonna wait for the twist of the century when Abel and Aary hookup.

Oh, the bricks that shall be shat...

That, would be a plot twist that would generate enough bricks to build a tower off.
After which, Oolong will steal Abel's shirt .. again.

All of this offcourse  beckon's the question, had Abel had a girlfriend yet ?

[VAE]

I guess i can at least say something since he was addressing me as well....
You folk as mods probably know better ,but compared to what i have seen on NationStates for example what he said seemed pretty mild for an official  warning ....

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I guess i can at least say something since he was addressing me as well....
You folk as mods probably know better ,but compared to what i have seen on NationStates for example what he said seemed pretty mild for an official  warning ....

He is not the first. He is not alone. We are watching all of you. And yes, he was mild about it - but the folks involved have been sniping at each other for a while. In one thread, okay, we can let that go on, within limits. (And when it reached those limits, we stepped in) Bringing it from a totally different thread into here? Might I bring your attention to Rule II, Section B? You may find it edifying.

No Trolling. This means no "following" someone else from thread to thread posting flamebait posts. If you can't get a good flame war narrowed down to one topic, or you're just so lame you have to settle a grudge with them, do it off the forum (PMs, IMs, Email). We don't want to read 80 lame topics about how you hate someone on the forum. We hate that, and are more likely to just ban you.

I read that to mean "don't go wandering around dragging trouble between threads". Do enlighten me if you read it totally differently, and we'll go and edit it to make it clearer. I would have thought it was clear enough, but if you feel otherwise, do let us know...

[VAE]

Ohh, i forgot he was already doing the same in the other threads...

But at some risk to myself, i still read it a bit differently - the problem i see is that the threads were quite closely related as all of them were the same argument between Aary and Abel... so it was a bit natural that the argument would follow through between them...

I would say the rule would address more to idiots who bring on unrelated flames at different topics just because they see one particular person there and try to derail the thread into crap-flinging.

But well, you are the mod, you decide

[AGE00]

Two thoughts.

One, I don't think this situation is nearly as complex as everyone is making it out to be. Abel's behaviour doesn't conform with what Aary expects or believes to be appropriate, so she's verbally abusing him to punish him for challenging her worldview and making her feel all uncomfortable. It's the most basic mechanism underlying peer pressure. Logic and moral principle have nothing to do with it. It's just dumb instinct, intended to encourage cohesion in a social group, and it's of no more philosophical import than the shrieking of apes or the snarling of wolves. Everyone just shouts at whoever they think is "doing it wrong", and the one's that get shouted at the most either fall in line or get driven out.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a problem that you can't run away from. Or, rather, there is no problem that can't be solved by removing yourself entirely from it's area of effect. Whether or not you're physically capable of doing so is another question entirely.

That's an interesting viewpoint.  You don't believe logic and moral principle matter at all? 

I would never contend that. The amount of debate in these threads is enough to show how highly people value both logic and morality, and the utility of both are undeniable.

I guess what I was saying was that logic and morality aren't what drive peoples actions as often we would like to think. I recall reading an article in New Scientist years ago with said that studies of brain activity indicated that the part of the brain associated with logic and reason tends only to kick in after the portion that handles decision making. That is to say that, most often, people will make a snap decision based on their gut feelings, as dictated by instinct, emotion and experience, then turn to logic and morality in order to justify it to others. You wouldn't believe the amount of time I spend second-guessing myself to avoid doing that...

[Arcblade]

I would never contend that. The amount of debate in these threads is enough to show how highly people value both logic and morality, and the utility of both are undeniable.

I guess what I was saying was that logic and morality aren't what drive peoples actions as often we would like to think. I recall reading an article in New Scientist years ago with said that studies of brain activity indicated that the part of the brain associated with logic and reason tends only to kick in after the portion that handles decision making. That is to say that, most often, people will make a snap decision based on their gut feelings, as dictated by instinct, emotion and experience, then turn to logic and morality in order to justify it to others. You wouldn't believe the amount of time I spend second-guessing myself to avoid doing that...

Ah, I see.  And sadly, that does seem to be the case often, if brain research is to be believed. 

On the other hand, this doesn't seem to be a snap-decision type situation to me, at least not in Aary's case.  She seems to have spent a good deal of time thinking about this, given how thorough and clear her arguments are.  Or at least spent enough time to garner those arguments. 

It's a good point, though, and one that I tend to forget all too often.