'Cubi Power

[Caswin]

So in the garbled transmission that was my connection to the webcast, I heard Amber mention a post she came across a post hating on DMFA - specifically, hating on it for its presentation of 'cubi.  Comparisons to the Cold Ones vampires from a strange series called Twilight followed, apparently insofar as they were creatures with remarkable mightpowers (and possibly an unusually large murderer-to-non-murderer ratio) but no weaknesses.

All things considered, of course, there probably won't be anyone here hating DMFA for that or any other reason.  However, it did still bring up a question, any answers to which I was unable to properly follow due to the aforementioned twice-acursed connection on my end.

'cubi: Just how powerful are they?  Is there such a thing as "too powerful" in this context?  Discuss.

(I will add my thoughts to the discussing, when and if a discussion actually takes off, when it isn't almost 1:00 AM.  This may not have been a smart move on my part, but it was my choice to attend the webcast and get all interested in this subject.)

[space reserved for clever TMNT spoof lyrics to the effect of "'cubi power!"]

[Gamma]

From my understanding average Cubi are not much more resilient then a being. The main differences being how one uses their abilities.
A Cubi is a stealth class, hiding and blending in when necessary only to strike when the time is right and such.
Long existing Cubi differ in power and skill and thus don't usually succumb to the the shortcomings of their race.

I'm actually drawing a blank as to exactly how skilled or mature a Demon or Angel has to be to come out on top of your average Cubi.
I think I knew at one point but I've done forgot.

I know guns can kill an average Cubi, I remember bringing up that discussion myself. Some Demons and Angels too I might add.

[Ted Schiller]

(snip)
'cubi: Just how powerful are they?  Is there such a thing as "too powerful" in this context?  Discuss.
(snip)

Compared to Fae and Dragons?  Not very powerful.
Of course, we humans are about as powerful as beings, so we're impressed. 

  Dan could kill creatures.  His Mother told him not to fight cubi.  So I assume beings could defeat cubi.  Therefore, I'd say they aren't too powerful.

With regards,
Ted

[Howl]

Is it the same Twilight I'm thinking of, with the sparkly vampires?

Ugh... where's a hitman when you need one?

[Kenway975]

Yes, same Twilight.

Honestly, I really don't think that cubi are all that powerful. They have Thought reading (decent, but is more of a non-combat ability more than anything... although it does help with finding where a hidden foe is). They naturally have magic. (Oh boo hoo, if I wanted magic I'd take a few levels of wizard or sorcerer. ) They are shape shifters. (Very useful, but as Dan has proven, unless you know what you are doing... it is not always very effective in a fight.)

It really would not take much too much to take out a cubi. Put up a mind shield, and try a 3 way flank. And don't aim for the wings. Past that it really would be down to who has the better AC compared to the others to hit bonus.

[Kabbalist]

Let's see...

Based on what I remember reading around various places in the comic (and the Demonology 101 supplement), the 'Cubi race's greatest strength is in it's cunning and subtlety, but also in its persistence. Read the supplement in the Demonology 101 section to get a run-down on the abilities of an average member of the race. In general, they're less physically powerful than some of the other Creatures, but their shapeshifting, magical, and psychic abilities make them a force to be reckoned with, especially if they have time to arrange events in their favor before things come to a direct confrontation. Bear in mind, though, that there's a significant difference in both power and subtlety when one compares a young succubus or incubus to one that has been refining his/her skills for several centuries.

Also, they do have plenty of weaknesses if one knows how to exploit them or if an individual succubus or incubus hasn't been completely trained in the use of his/her abilities. Consider also that we've seen evidence that entire 'Cubi clans have been wiped out in genocidal wars, either by underestimated Beings, dragons, or each other. Does that sound all-powerful to you?

[Turnsky]

ug...


to my mind, Cubi are just harder to kill, and generally unwise to irritate...

i mean, can one honestly say that can actually /judge/ how powerful a cubi is based on how they fight?.. 'cuz truth be told, we haven't /seen/ a cubi fight properly yet.

[Kabbalist]

ug...


to my mind, Cubi are just harder to kill, and generally unwise to irritate...

i mean, can one honestly say that can actually /judge/ how powerful a cubi is based on how they fight?.. 'cuz truth be told, we haven't /seen/ a cubi fight properly yet.

Of course not. From what I've read, 'Cubi generally prefer to avoid proper fights, either working entirely through subtler means or rigging things in their favor before a confrontation. If one could be killed in a fair fight, that's a great incentive to lie, cheat, and otherwise play dirty.

[Turnsky]

ug...


to my mind, Cubi are just harder to kill, and generally unwise to irritate...

i mean, can one honestly say that can actually /judge/ how powerful a cubi is based on how they fight?.. 'cuz truth be told, we haven't /seen/ a cubi fight properly yet.

Of course not. From what I've read, 'Cubi generally prefer to avoid proper fights, either working entirely through subtler means or rigging things in their favor before a confrontation. If one could be killed in a fair fight, that's a great incentive to lie, cheat, and otherwise play dirty.

agreed. ironically this is why i wanted my own version of 'Cubi on Ariannia, as a counterpoint to another race, which actually preferred a straight up fight. They aren't as "powerful" as DMFA's bunch, however i decided from the get-go that there won't be any 'triwings' for example.

[Tapewolf]

My gut feeling was that Angels are incredibly good at light magic, Demons are incredibly good at dark magic and 'Cubi are pretty decent at both, but not as good as either of the other two races.  Most of the other points I'd have made have been made already.

[Zedd]

I say they as powerful when they need to be or least when they try to avoid a life and death sort of thing...

[inuhanyo]

From the Cubi Demonology page.
"Weaknesses: Cubi tend to be highly inexperienced at battles and highly egotistical... thus often leading them to underestimate their opponents. They also tend to have short attention spans. Most Cubi can die from normal means unless they are a certain power level."

Dan's biggest advantage vis a vis other Cubi is his Being Adventurer training and experience.

[Keleth]

"They  just have a Level adjustment

Any high enough level adventurer (Aka Skilled) Could easily kill one"

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

First off, I'd like to ask, why are combat abilities considered so much better than non-combat abilities? For me, If I were offered a choice, I'd take 'Cubi telepathy over Demon Super strength and resilience any day. Even if you're talking a D&D esque fighting fury, the ability to gather information and control the environment, to act subtlety and with guile, means that you can avoid fighting on any but your own terms.


But seriously? Too Powerful? What does that even mean? It's not like different fantasy worlds are colliding for some arena duel. Power is relative, and what is and isn't allowed should be to further the plot. Nobody in DMFA except maybe the Fae would last long against the Old Ones in the Susan Cooper books. Does that make either one bad?

Not liking a race or a fantasy system because it's too powerful or not powerful enough is foolish. Power only means anything in the internal reality of the text/comic/movie/ whatever.

[Mao]

"They  just have a Level adjustment

Any high enough level adventurer (Aka Skilled) Could easily kill one"

For those who don't know, this is a quote from Amber from last nights webcast.  She tends to think of things concerning the comic in DnD terms.

[Jack McSlay]

First off, I'd like to ask, why are ombat abilities considered so much better than non-combat abilities? For me, If I were offered a choice, I'd take 'Cubi telepathy over Demon Super strength and resiliance any day. Even if you're talking a D&D esque fighting fury, the ability to gather information and control the environment, to act subtlely and with guile, means that you can avoid fighting on any but your own terms.

That's like asking which is better, having a stomach or kidneys. both are important to make this kind of living.
If you're facing a demon and you can't keep up in frontal combat, good luck thinking up a plan during the 3 seconds he'll take to reach you shove his fist through your chest.
If you're facing a cubi who already has a plan, you'd better have enough raw combat skills and experience to counter it.

It's good to have a plan for a fight, or to a achieve your goal without fighting, but foolish to think you'll always be able to.

[Azlan]

Cubi run on 3 AAA batteries and a hamster in a wheel.  The hamster is greased to make it burst into flame at 350,000 RPM.

[Keleth]

I knew it!

So they are electric/steam hybrids 

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

First off, I'd like to ask, why are combat abilities considered so much better than non-combat abilities? For me, If I were offered a choice, I'd take 'Cubi telepathy over Demon Super strength and resilience any day. Even if you're talking a D&D esque fighting fury, the ability to gather information and control the environment, to act subtlety and with guile, means that you can avoid fighting on any but your own terms.

That's like asking which is better, having a stomach or kidneys. both are important to make this kind of living.
If you're facing a demon and you can't keep up in frontal combat, good luck thinking up a plan during the 3 seconds he'll take to reach you shove his fist through your chest.
If you're facing a cubi who already has a plan, you'd better have enough raw combat skills and experience to counter it.

It's good to have a plan for a fight, or to a achieve your goal without fighting, but foolish to think you'll always be able to.

What I was really getting at is "Why are these things decided by who wins a stand up fight". Lots of people manage to get through life without actually acting violently towards anyone. I've taken martial arts for years, and I have never once faced the necessity of breaking someone's bones to defend myself or a loved one. Should I be going "OH TEH NOES! THE D&D ENCOUNTER SYSTEM IS WRONG!!!"

Or do I realize that the best abilities are the ones that help you get through life, and not the ones that help you smash things into smaller pieces? You may, or may not be cast at the whim of the storyteller into some sort of super-violent lifestyle, forced to battle other monsters on a daily basis. The risk goes up exponentially if you happen to be the focus of some sort of written plot, because everyone knows that a webcomic about "John and Jack, the Demon and Incubus that nothing ever happens to" would be boring to read.

But for a lot of people out there, and presumably magical creatures for any sort of stable worldset that isn't a hellhole like Athas or Erebus (FFH Erebus, not the one from Greek mythology), chances are you are not fighting, preparing from a fight, or fleeing from a fight on a 24/7 basis. I mean, look at DMFA. In the grand total of now 1001 strips, I count an entire 3 serious fights that Dan, one of the title characters has been in that were for blood. (Once against DP, once when Aaryaana was trying to kill him, and just the recent one against DP and Regina), plus one more that he recounts to Fi (DP again.) All the rest of the time he spends either running, or far more common, interacting with people.

It's not like asking which is more important, stomach or kidneys, because really, neither are essential on a 24/7 basis, unless one goes looking for trouble. However, for a lot of people, combat is a non-constant factor in their lives, if it occurs at all. Interaction with other sentient (I should really say sapient, but everyone gets those terms confused these days) beings/creatures does happen to everyone, except for that occasional axe crazy idiot who literally attacks everything he sees. I'd say it's like asking, which is more helpful, your right arm, or your thyroid gland. Both are useful, one for a wide variety of tasks, and the other for one task, that if it comes up, you'll be *really* thankful you had it.

[inuhanyo]

The question was about power.  This breaks down to ability to control the environment and control/influence other entities. 

For Creatures, control the environment means magic, with the Fae and Dragons on top,  Angels and Demons in a lower tier, and Cubi generally below that.

Control or influencing others often needs combat ability, if only as one of several legs, because Demons have a high tendency to try and take what they want by brute force, requiring the ability to beat them off.

Dan's occupation (from which he retired before the strip began) is Adventurer.  Which is all about keeping Creatures from preying on Beings.  It typically involves killing the offending Creature.  Dan appearantly made a reputation for himself, and not a bad one.  Of the three serious fights we've seen him in, two are basically his old occupation pulling him back in, and he survived the other because he keeps his training up, abet in unorthodox ways.

Dan has been, and to a lesser degree still is, one of those people whose work allows other Beings to sleep peacefully in their beds, by being prepared to do violence on their behalf.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

The question was about power.  This breaks down to ability to control the environment and control/influence other entities. 

Which controls the environment more, the woodcutter's hatchet, or the knight's lochaber axe? There's a lot more to influencing the people around you and controlling the environment that you find yourself in than the ability to smash harder.

For Creatures, control the environment means magic, with the Fae and Dragons on top,  Angels and Demons in a lower tier, and Cubi generally below that.

Control or influencing others often needs combat ability, if only as one of several legs, because Demons have a high tendency to try and take what they want by brute force, requiring the ability to beat them off.

Gezuntheit? Maybe in an anarchic state, where the only thing that matters is what you can reach with your blade, but by this sort of logic, the general of an army, by definition, can kick the butt of the soldiers below him, differences and age and training being irrelevant. Combat power can cause intimidation, and is not even the only step for that, simply providing the credibility to carry out a threat. (Itself meaningless if the other party does not believe your ability, or doubts your will to carry it out.) Information on the other hand, and the magical ability to alter minds around you, is something that will always be useful, whereas super-strength is not. Not everyone is an adventurer. Power should not be determined by what is best used in a very narrow cross section of conflict, which itself is a narrow cross section of interaction.

[Zedd]

Cubi run on 3 AAA batteries and a hamster in a wheel.  The hamster is greased to make it burst into flame at 350,000 RPM.

YOU LIE

[Turnsky]

The question was about power. 

They lift up their magic swords and shout "By the power of Greyskull!" ?

[Cogidubnus]

'Cubi are like twilight vampires? Someone said this? Sounds a bit...trollish, to me. Besides, if anything, twilight vampires would be like Cubi. Seniority, after all.

[Azlan]

YOU LIE

Ok, ok... there is also a weasel with a blowtorch and a banana.

[Tiger_T]

Which one of them is the hamster hooked up to?

[Janus Whitefurr]

YOU LIE

Ok, ok... there is also a weasel with a blowtorch and a banana.

We'we not weasels! We'we fewwets!

[thegayhare]

When I say this post title I half expected to come in here to a bunch of cubi wearing white sheets and chanting...

sorry

[Turnsky]

YOU LIE

Ok, ok... there is also a weasel with a blowtorch and a banana.

several new models were released with a "mr fusion" in the back. 

[Zedd]

When I say this post title I half expected to come in here to a bunch of cubi wearing white sheets and chanting...

sorry

Don't be sorry, Sides white silk feels so nice |3