Possibility of grenades and flamethrowers existing in Furrae

[Eboreg]

I know a lot of people will associate grenades and flamethrowers with modern and not medieval times but hear me out. Grenades were first crude black powder bombs and it has been established that black powder exists in Furrae. Would it be too hard to imagine some Being stuffing some black powder in a hollow, iron ball then sticking a fuse in it and use it against Demons?

As for flamethrowers, the first man-portable flamethrowers were hand-pumped and date back to the medieval era. They were phased out in favor of muskets until the industrial age when ones powered by air pressure were used in bunker clearing. Nowadays, they've been phased out in favor of incendiary rocket launchers but are still used by farmers to clear out killer bees. One would THINK that they would be very effective against pygmy shrews so I just want to clear things up.

[Tapewolf]

You may remember Abel made himself element-proof.  If Demons can do that as well, a flamethrower won't be much use.

[Ignuus66]

You may remember Abel made himself element-proof.  If Demons can do that as well, a flamethrower won't be much use.

depends on HOW they are element proof. If it associated with using water magic to counter the effects of the flame then a flamethrower would be as effective as normal. If it is associated with resisting the heat itself, then it wont work. Grenades on the other hand would be effective anywhere, but as with the guns, since there are much simpler and effective alternates (magic) to the basic tech, there is never a need/ a market for it, thus it is not developed to become more effective than the counter part.

[Amber Williams]

I expect if flamethrowers exist, Matilda would be tempted to install one into her shower.

[Lying Foo]

That she did so is going right into my personal canon.

[Ignuus66]

I expect if flamethrowers exist, Matilda would be tempted to install one into her shower.

I wouldnt doubt her already having a magic based one in her shower.

[ishidan]

I know a lot of people will associate grenades and flamethrowers with modern and not medieval times but hear me out. Grenades were first crude black powder bombs and it has been established that black powder exists in Furrae. Would it be too hard to imagine some Being stuffing some black powder in a hollow, iron ball then sticking a fuse in it and use it against Demons?

Traditionally, demons aren't impressed by fire/concussion/sharp bits of metal based weapons, which is what a grenade is.

Flamethrowers are also a hell of a thing.  As George Carlin once put it,
"Flamethrowers exist because somewhere, some guy said "I'd really like to set those guys over there ON FIRE, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done..."

[Eli_In_Chains]

As I recall, demons have the innate ability to make their skin much, much harder and tougher than that of a Being. I imagine it's much like a Cubi's wings in that sense. Having such strong, hard armor may be able to negate the effect of a shrapnel grenade, such as pineapple fragmentation grenades, but would still not defend against shockwave or concussion grenades, the kinds which have high explosive and kill using a powerful explosive shockwave rather than the shrapnel from it. Pressure is pressure, and I bet that much pressure would still liquefy a demon's internal organs. Whether people in Furrae have reached the technological level where they can create and deploy that kind of explosive weapon, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

[Eboreg]

@Eli_In_Chains: That explains a lot. I seriously doubt you can make a concussion grenade with black powder.

[Ignuus66]

Flamethrowers are also a hell of a thing.  As George Carlin once put it,
"Flamethrowers exist because somewhere, some guy said "I'd really like to set those guys over there ON FIRE, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done..."

but remember that people dont need flamethrowers to get that done.   (Merlitz is a prime example)

[TacticalError]

Flamethrowers are also a hell of a thing.  As George Carlin once put it,
"Flamethrowers exist because somewhere, some guy said "I'd really like to set those guys over there ON FIRE, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done..."

but remember that people dont need flamethrowers to get that done.   (Merlitz is a prime example)

It looks like another case of "Possible?- yes. Practical?- no."

[Mao]

For those wondering:  Demons can make their exterior diamond hard.  I think that would prevent even the worst of the effects of a concussion based grenade, but not all.  I believe they also have higher levels of regeneration.

[Ignuus66]

For those wondering:  Demons can make their exterior diamond hard.  I think that would prevent even the worst of the effects of a concussion based grenade, but not all.  I believe they also have higher levels of regeneration.

The Diamond exterior would not stop the shockwave if it is only the surface, infact it might amplify it due to the fact that it wont be elastic like normal skin (if I presume correctly) which would only cause more damage to the demon. (for example bashing the skull in with a hammer causes more damage if it reaches a point then having no skull at all) Which raises an interesting question: Why are blunt weapons (hammers, maces, clubs) less widespread then swords and other slashing weapons?

[Mao]

Maybe, but it would also depend on if it allowed the rigidity of the diamond as well.  If it did, the shockwave would have little effect on them other than knocking them around.  Sure, that could still do them harm, but I rather doubt it'd be much worse than any other attack.

I dunno, it seems like such a (pardon the slight pun) hit or miss thing that in most cases, the attacker would be better off using the more flexible option of magic.  The technological solution in this case just wouldn't be effective in comparison.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I expect if flamethrowers exist, Matilda would be tempted to install one into her shower.

... I can see Dan borrowing her shower, and accidentally using the wrong taps, now. >.<

[Ignuus66]

I expect if flamethrowers exist, Matilda would be tempted to install one into her shower.

... I can see Dan borrowing her shower, and accidentally using the wrong taps, now. >.<

yeah, he better take elemental resistance in the academy in his month away 

[joshofspam]

Well thinking about it all, there's more then just demons in Furrae and hybrids of magic and technology have been heard about in the story.

So those types of technology might be in this world, but we probably have to keep in mind the uses may vary a bit here because of magic and all the races. (That includes the Beings) I'd imagine that beings would possibly have limits to how powerful and how much magic they can cast at one time, depending on each individual.

Swords and spells are nice, but I could see an Adventurer or army wanting options if at all possible.

[Eli_In_Chains]

Maybe, but it would also depend on if it allowed the rigidity of the diamond as well.  If it did, the shockwave would have little effect on them other than knocking them around.  Sure, that could still do them harm, but I rather doubt it'd be much worse than any other attack.

I dunno, it seems like such a (pardon the slight pun) hit or miss thing that in most cases, the attacker would be better off using the more flexible option of magic.  The technological solution in this case just wouldn't be effective in comparison.

The effects of a shockwave through a medium do differ based on elasticity, but a highly rigid armor would still allow propagation of the shockwave through it. Even diamond isn't incompressible enough to block the pressure wave, provided it's intimately connected to something on the other side that is more vulnerable. It's the same principle that makes jackhammers and swingy steel ball toys work. Diamond balls would transfer the force in the same way.

[Nocturne of Night]

<scholar glasses and beard>

I'm taking a wave mechanics class right now, so maybe I can try shedding light here. Suppose a pulse in air (which is like a sound wave) carrying a given amount of energy hits diamond, which is effectively a rigid wall. Transmission of the pulse depends on the acoustic impedances of the diamond and the air. As you may expect, diamond has a relatively high acoustic impedance, and so while some wave gets through, its energy loses about 4 orders of magnitude on the way in. Then it has to move into the flesh (I'm assuming they're not completely hard as diamond: good for them), so it loses another ~2 orders for that, so about one millionth of the energy of the pulse gets in. This is a possible reason why you have a skull: two barriers instead of one (air->brain).

As for Ignuus' hammer comment:
The blunt force of the hammer works mostly because you've shattered the skull at that point and the pressure is released *while the hammer's still swinging* so we get a constructive effect in the blunt force. The impact (the maximum force during the blow) is what really damages, so this makes sense. Think of a car on a freeway slowing down towards a bad traffic jam vs crashing into an exit divider. Another way to think of it is that a skull likely slows the hammer (because of the additional energy transfer), so breaking it releases that energy and so the damage is greater, simply because the energy transfer was more efficient.

</scholar glasses and beard>
I love physics. Happy theorizing!

[Ignuus66]

Thanks for clearing that up! That makes sense actually, so apparently Robotic hammers made out of carbon nanotube meshes are the way to go!

[AmigaDragon]

Flamethrowers are also a hell of a thing.  As George Carlin once put it,
"Flamethrowers exist because somewhere, some guy said "I'd really like to set those guys over there ON FIRE, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done..."

but remember that people dont need flamethrowers to get that done.   (Merlitz is a prime example)

In Furrae, flame throwers have teeth, scales and wings.

[Merlin]

I can only hope there aren't grenades in Furrae, though, for one simple reason...

[Tapewolf]

I can only hope there aren't grenades in Furrae, though, for one simple reason...

Pulling the pin and eating it could be interesting.  You'd have an explosion for no obvious reason in a random location somewhere in Furrae.

[Scow2]

Yes, they have flamethrowers and explosives: See - Jet liners.

Furrae is by no means medieval. With all the phones, toasters, Multi-engine high-capacity passenger airplanes, and other things (mostly introduced to the world by Jyrass), Where would you get that idea? The potential for both these weapons is there, but they aren't used because they're not really effective. Physics go out the window in a world like this. I suspect swords and other medieval weapons are used because of 'ambient' magics.

In the hands of a renowned swordsman, a blade that has been used to kill renowned threats is capable of putting a lot of hurt on almost anything in ways that go beyond what qualities like the assorted material strengths, blade thickness, mass, density, etc. would indicate possible. Just as life functions on "Art Major Biology", the mechanics of the world function based on "Art Major Physics"

[Ignuus66]

Yes, they have flamethrowers and explosives: See - Jet liners.

I don't believe that scene was canon to the world, and it is a very early on strip.

[MUDPUNISHER]

If there are (and I hope there are SAIA could be VERY interesting with them) I would say that Jyraas made them.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I believe you're overestimating Jyrras' status in the Furrae community. Amber has stated in the past (and I can dig up a reference if you really want) that he's not making things that are new, mostly; he's just making them without using magic.

Which is why Matilda was so enthusiastic about meeting him - she prefers the lack of magic, because it makes it easier to apply other magic on top.

[VAE]

I believe you're overestimating Jyrras' status in the Furrae community. Amber has stated in the past (and I can dig up a reference if you really want) that he's not making things that are new, mostly; he's just making them without using magic.

Which is why Matilda was so enthusiastic about meeting him - she prefers the lack of magic, because it makes it easier to apply other magic on top.

This.

I imagine that more than the single technologist there, he's the only one arsed to spend resources (because he got bloody rich off other stuff) at what seems like a doomed, non-perspective field to everyone else.