Tolerance issues!

[Ryudo Lee]

My four cents: 

1.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must do.
2.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must believe.
3.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must tolerate.
4.  I will tolerate you until you start harming others.

Quoted for truth.

[Paladin Sheppard]

My four cents: 

1.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must do.
2.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must believe.
3.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must tolerate.
4.  I will tolerate you until you start harming others.

Quoted for truth.

Double quoted for truth.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

My four cents: 

1.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must do.

Bugger. Mods, he's not going to tolerate us at _all_... ;-]

[Azlan]

As I enjoy pointing out, there are no races among human beings as of yet.  I have always contended that viewing humans exclusively by phenotypical or genotypical traits is not a valid taxonimic concept of speciation, but a purely social construct.  This concept of "race" varies drastically among the cultures performing the classification.  There has been only been one possibility of a subspecies of humans developing since we modern humans diverged from the original Homo sapiens to become Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens idaltu (now extinct) some 160,000+ years ago.  This one instance would be the Inuit people, who due to their environmental adaptations, were only a few generations short of diverging.  Due to intermixing with migrating Europeans (beginning with the Vikings), that process was halted.  This is not to say that other possibilities did not exist, but none have survived nor has their remains been discovered to add to this list.

That being said, rarely is anyone espousing racial intolerance basing their rhetoric on valid taxonomy, genetic analysis, or mitochondrial divergence. 

We, as a species, have very little dimorphism (sexual or physical) within our own species as compared to other mammals, but we are acutely sensitive to the minor variations in physical appearance we do possess.  This is not an endearing trait in our species and we must really learn to get around it.

In my opinion, there should be no tolerance for those who preach intolerance.  Whether this be based on the social definitions of "race" we hold so much importance on, spiritual choices, sexual orientation, or even national origin.  People have the right to be the way that they are and to believe in what they choose to believe in... at least in the United States of America.  Additionally, in the USA, a person's rights may be exercised up to the point that they infringe on the rights of others.  I can only speak truly from this perspective.  I have supported gay rights, down to marching with them for support and voting in favor of such, and acknowledge such unions.  In the end, I wish we could all accept one another for being what we are, but we seem a bit off from that.

         

[Gabi]

Kipiru: I'm a vegetarian, and I take offense when people try to convince me to eat meat or, worse, consider themselves better than me because they eat it.

What you say about human brains evolving after they started eating meat can't be proved, and even if it were true it wouldn't mean the former is a consequence of the latter. Still, if you believe eating meat makes you smarter than me, I invite you to back up your claims.

[Kipiru]

No , Gabi I don't think eating meat makes me smarter, or that you not eating it makes you healthier! Read my post carefully, I do not stand against vegetarians, I stand against those who try and convince others that their way is the only true one! The note about the meat was a fun fact, that seems to have been misunderstood as some form of attack- it's not!

NOTE:  I started this topic with the idea for people to share their opinions about controversial believes about the diversity of groups among people who seem to be missunderstood without anyone trying to pass judgement on others! I would definitely never assume I have the right to tell anyone what they should believe or do! I am neither superior or inferior to anyone! And this goes for all of you!

[Sunblink]

I'm not going to get on the case of reasonable vegetarians. I just like eating meat, and if they don't want to eat meat, I'm not going to force them to. Humans were developed as omnivores, so I don't think it's all that unnatural. I think both meat and vegetables contain important vitamins and proteins necessary for development.

(although I actually hate vegetables I like fruits a lot more)

[Alondro]

Humans have both canine/incisor teeth and molars.  That trait is found in dogs, bears, and chimps... all of whom are omnivores.  We also have the enzymatic machinery to deal with digestion of animals fats and meat proteins.  The proof is in the pudding.   

Humans have adapted to survive off almost anything.  Like rats.  And we breed to fill up space all over the world.  Like rats.  And when we get too crowded, there's more hmosexuality to slow down the procreation rate.  Like rats. 

Therefore, Humans = rats   

We also make lots of poop... we could also be pigeons.   

*Charline is likely pleased with this conclusion* 

[Kipiru]

Therefore, Humans = rats  

We also make lots of poop... we could also be pigeons.  

[superluser]

Therefore, Humans = rats   

We also make lots of poop... we could also be pigeons.   

What's the difference between rats and pigeons?

[TheDXM]

One sinks, the other just sinks faster.

[Azlan]

Humans have both canine/incisor teeth and molars.  That trait is found in dogs, bears, and chimps... all of whom are omnivores.  We also have the enzymatic machinery to deal with digestion of animals fats and meat proteins.  The proof is in the pudding.   

Indeed, this Alondro fellow is correct.  We can not subsist on only animal proteins or vegetable matter exclusively, but a balance between the two is required.  I believe the balance is actually more heavily weighted towards vegetable and fruits.  Additionally, with a proper balance of plant foods, vegetable proteins can completely remove the need for animal based ones.  However, vegetable protein is of a lower quality than animal proteins and careful research and combination with other plants foods is necessary.  One cannot be a picky vegetarian, as most nutritionists have told me.  I am an omnivore myself, but it is good to know these things.
 

[Gabi]

Well, I'm fine the way I am. Kipiru, I've read your new post and your PM, so... apology accepted.

[Reese Tora]

Kipiru: I'm a vegetarian, and I take offense when people try to convince me to eat meat or, worse, consider themselves better than me because they eat it.

What you say about human brains evolving after they started eating meat can't be proved, and even if it were true it wouldn't mean the former is a consequence of the latter. Still, if you believe eating meat makes you smarter than me, I invite you to back up your claims.

actually... ancestors to humans acted as scavengers, and part of the increase in intelegence comes from eating meat that would normally be inaccessible behind bone (marrow and brains).  However, this is more likely something to do with intelegence allowing the eating of meat that other scavengers and predatiors were unable to access, rather than the rich food causing the development of intelegence.

In other words, those able to get at the marrow and brains would be more likley to survive and have kids, and intelegence helped one get at the marrow and brains.  One of the reasons we evolved intelegence was probably because intelegence was a favorable trait in a relatively frail species that requires a certain ammount of meat (or complex mix of grains and vegetables) to be healthy.

Of course, we've also arrived at a level of intelegence and knowledge that it's possible for some members of our species to go without meat without suffering from malnutrition, and that's an accomplishment in itself.

... wait a second, didn't we have this conversation already a few months ago?

Tolerance!

I put up with a lot of s***, I'm an easy going guy.  I'm definently prejudiced, but I try not to let stereotypes effect my judgement adversely when dealing with people.  It's human nature to be prejudiced, it's a quick survival function to be able to quickly catagorize things based on obvious traits, and more people need to realize their prejudices and work arond them when dealing with individuals.

[Kipiru]

I regret the fact that Gabi took my post as offensive, but the fact is that I heard on Discovery that the human brain size grew after our ancestors found a way to eat more meat by processing it( tenderising and cooking). THAT DOES NOT MEAN MEAT EATERS ARE SMARTER!!! It's just a fun fact I regret ever sharing!

[Zina]

Could it be that we found a way to tenderize and cook meat BECAUSE our brains grew, and not the other way around?

[Kipiru]

Nope, pretty sure they said it was the other way around!

[Zina]

How on earth would they know that?

[Gabi]

Ok, this discussion is going nowhere. Not only is it impossible to know for certain what happen first, but even if we could travel back in time and see, there would be no way to know whether two events which came one after the other (or perhaps at about the same time) were related or not. I'm pretty sure the decrease in the number of pirates in the sea is not the cause of global warming, but the current issue is a lot trickier and there is no way to find positive proof for either side of the argument.

So... why don't we just drop it? I've accepted Kipiru's apology, I understand he wasn't saying vegetarians were dumb despite what the comment might suggest. Can we get back on topic now, please?

[Reese Tora]

Could it be that we found a way to tenderize and cook meat BECAUSE our brains grew, and not the other way around?

Nope, pretty sure they said it was the other way around!

Actaully, Yeah, what Zina said.  You gotta understand the evolutionary process; small mutations might make one ape a little smarter, he figures out how to cook/tenderize food, and subsequently has more energy (eating prepared food saves energy that would be spent in digestion, it's another step past learning how to get to meat that other scavengers and predators can't as I mentioned in my previous post) and is thus more likely to survive long enough to have children, who will inherit the mutation of being a little smarter. Over millions of years and hundreds of thousands of generations these little mutations for bigger brains(and other things besides) add up to a species of ape capable of putting a man on the moon.

If eating meat casued larger brains, then you would need Lamarkian evolution to pass it on to the next generation.  That's the bit where your children inherit traits that you develope in yourself like muscle mass or a longer reach, and, to save you the research, that's not how inheritance of traits works.

If there had been some sort of vegitable matter that required intelegence to get and cook, that would also have made intelegence a desirable trait and fostered its development. (and, actually, early humans prepared both plant and animal matter)

[Kipiru]

Right, so everyone has his own opinion over this. Fine by me. Can we drop it now- I said it was a mistake bringing it up.

[Azlan]

In a sense, everyone is actually right to certain extents, but as Kip has said we can drop it.  If anyone wants to continue discussions along these lines, PM is good.

How on earth would they know that?

It was those pesky aliens... that is why they detonate the cows.

[Colgatecrusader]

now that's just being intolerant toward aliens.

[Kipiru]

Conspiracy theory of mine: Elves are aliens and the other way around! They left when we started getting smart(no meat jokes please) and are now observing us because we started ruining their  cared for planet! So expect swan-shaped starships to come one day and slap us over the wrist!

[Tiger_T]

Nope, pretty sure they said it was the other way around!

*shrugs* What do they know? Who are 'they' anyway?
Nah, I'm just pulling your strings there.



If you really have to dislike people, please note:

You should dislike individuals one by one for specific reasons.
Disliking groups tends to blur your reasoning.


Individuals will always disagree on some viewpoints.
That's okay as long as they can accept the other's viewpoint.


I'm far from being without bias, but if 'others' can leave me and other 'others' be, I too will very probably leave them be too.
(Ugh. Monster sentence. Can you comprehend what I'm trying to say there?)


Also: Be nice to others and smile. 
Watch this short film and give it a chance to persuade you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao "Validation"

[Stygian]

My four cents: 

1.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must do.

Bugger. Mods, he's not going to tolerate us at _all_... ;-]

You think anyone does? Oh, sure, we have to obey, but in the end we all think of you as touchy, misguided, vindictive bullies. And if the fact that that people are going to think that of you isn't in the job description...

[Azlan]

You think anyone does? Oh, sure, we have to obey, but in the end we all think of you as touchy, misguided, vindictive bullies. And if the fact that that people are going to think that of you isn't in the job description...

Be nice, some people may need to feel superior to others because in real life they amount to nothing.  Now this does not necessarily apply to anyone here.

[Lysander]

Just for the subject of Elves: From what I recall of Tales of Symphonia, Elves come from the planet/comet Derris-Kharlan. The conspiracy may be exactly right... 

[Vidar]

1.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must do.
2.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must believe.
3.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must tolerate.
4.  I will tolerate you until you start harming others.

I think these are usefull guidelines, though there are exceptions to these guidelines.

1.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must do, unless you are an appointed official with the duty to keep things orderly (think law-enforcement / moderators, etc.). I also believe that any such appointed official should be fired on the spot the moment they start demanding unreasonable things (such as shrubberies, or total conformation to their personal standards rather then the standards agreed upon by the community as a whole).

2.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must believe, unless you are educating me about something with my consent, and even then, I will put your claims under some scruteny until I have verified the veracity of your claims.

3.  I will tolerate you until you start telling me what I must tolerate, unkess you can damn well back up your demands with some really good reasons. In the face of a well-thought out arguments I am willing and able to change my opinion.

4 I will tolerate you until you start harming others for no good reason, and your reason better be damn good indeed.

I would also add that I have little patience for liars, thieves, bullies, the willfully ignorant, testosterone anachronisms, etc.

Of course, anyone can debate such things ad infinitum without ever reaching a set of standards that everyone can agree upon.

[Kipiru]

Just for the subject of Elves: From what I recall of Tales of Symphonia, Elves come from the planet/comet Derris-Kharlan. The conspiracy may be exactly right... 

I knew I'd find a supporter in the face of Lysander