09/04/2011 [PF #165] A new use for cloning.

[joshofspam]

You would be surprised how much a soulless clone can come in handy. Substitute corpse, replacement body parts, a new twist to Soylent Green.

Though Keaton seems a little speechless at that. I would take it that hits a little to close to killing one own family in her eyes. I doubt Keaton could kill her own sister.

Just making a living body can get you to thinking about that and to chomping off its head would be rather disturbing with all that blood. What's that phrase? "Choppy, Choppy, Oh so sloppy."

[techmaster-glitch]

Whoa. I don't remember THIS in the written Future History.

...though, I may just have faulty memory.

[Cerbera]

It could also be a careful ploy to unbalance her, it's not as if she's not already wobbly on the sanity& propriety scale.  Head-games a re a fine art afterall.

[ChaosMageX]

Darn it!  joshofspam beat me to creating a topic.

And wow, offing a clone of yourself would be hard, even if it didn't have a working mind.

But still, how exactly did Jakob "possess" his duplicate anyway?  I mean, was it some sort innate cubi ability that we haven't been told about yet, or does it fall under the category of mind reading?

And he managed to grow a clone without a soul probably by putting a defect into it that demented and damaged its brain beyond repair, thus preventing it from gaining sentience and generating its own soul from the ether, or at least that's what I believe happened.

[Cerbera]

what if the soulless part was an accident given the technology of the time?  didn't they make artificial souls (so to speak) some time later?

[Raskahn]

Question: When cloning a Cubi, why aren't the headwings present in the DNA when the backwings are?

Love Yak's (new? old?) trenchcoat btw.

[Tapewolf]

Question: When cloning a Cubi, why aren't the headwings present in the DNA when the backwings are?

My take is that it's not actually possible to clone a 'Cubi at all, you just end up with a Being who looks like the 'Cubi.  How Jakob's researchers managed to give 'it' backwings at all - let alone headwings - without altering the DNA to the point at which it would no longer match Jakob's... that is something you'd have to ask them.

Headwings don't come until the 'Cubi's magic reserves reach a certain point, if I remember Amber's discussion of it correctly.  With no soul, it's questionable whether that would ever happen, even if you could create a 'Cubi.

At the end of the day there was a lot of fakery going on here, it only had to be good enough to fool people with a bounty on Johan Cross, and only the head was actually presented.  Quite what Jakob plans to do about said people once he comes out of stealth mode is another matter.
 

And wow, offing a clone of yourself would be hard, even if it didn't have a working mind.

Trying to make Torris cry in the last panel wasn't easy...

But still, how exactly did Jakob "possess" his duplicate anyway?  I mean, was it some sort innate cubi ability that we haven't been told about yet, or does it fall under the category of mind reading?

It's just a spell.  Abel has mentioned making people into mind-slaves and Amber once described part of Devin's backstory where an Angel had created an amulet that allowed him to possess others or otherwise control their minds.
In this case it's not even going to be very hard because there isn't really a mind to take over.

Whoa. I don't remember THIS in the written Future History.

...though, I may just have faulty memory.

It's very slightly different, but it is there.  I'd post the lines, but I don't want to make this reply bigger than it already is....

You would be surprised how much a soulless clone can come in handy. Substitute corpse, replacement body parts, a new twist to Soylent Green.

You'd have to feed the clone on something though.  That and this was a serious investment in both time and money.  It's worth noting that Jakob hasn't done anything with this technology since, though the fact that he personally beheaded his own double isn't going to help his feelings towards it.
And yes, replacement body parts are one of the reasons they were interested in it, but they couldn't really get it to do what Jakob had hoped and there were a lot of drawbacks.

This whole idea was significantly inspired by a scene from 'Against a Dark Background' by Ian M Banks, only in that case the person who created the clone also used her as a sex partner.  (This did not make the original very happy at all).

[Raskahn]

And wow, offing a clone of yourself would be hard, even if it didn't have a working mind.

Trying to make Torris cry in the last panel wasn't easy...

I missed the crying bit >.> The blurred panels make it hard to notice, at least on my screen they do or, I have to clean my glasses...

[RobbieThe1st]

I missed the crying bit >.> The blurred panels make it hard to notice, at least on my screen they do or, I have to clean my glasses...

Huh, that's one of the things I noticed right off, though the color is slightly hard to see against the green. It matches the expression correctly, though, and I thought it looked /perfect/.

[Tapewolf]

If anyone's interested, here's an enlargement of the bottom two panels.

http://www.project-future.org/stuff/things/pf165_bottom-1024.jpg

Originally the plan had been to have Shadrok guest these panels, but sadly that didn't work out.
Instead we did this one as a sketch and coloured that directly without inking to make it look rough and different from the present-day scene.
This required a new colouring technique which I had to experiment with, plus a few edits were needed anyway.
All in all, what was supposed to be a quick and dirty job turned into a colossal task, not least because Ren's paper and smudges added a grain to the last two panels which bloated them up to 4MB.
When sending him proofs, the top 2/3 downloaded almost immediately and the bottom row took forever.  It took two minutes to upload them as well.

Some early versions have Torris with wings.  I didn't spot that at first, but suddenly it clicked and I was like "No, no - what if someone sees it?  He'd have wasted 25 years and a perfectly good self-assassination!"
Ren's typical technique for colouring sketches involves converting the pencil into an alpha layer, but this has the problem that it's almost impossible to edit as the alpha layers are cumulative and cutting and pasting will give you a bright part where you cut and a dark part where you pasted.
I solved this by using a Multiply layer instead and was able to safely remove the wings, but it was touch and go.


For those who are collecting the comics, I noticed the gems were missing from one bracer this morning - you might want to update your copies.


EDIT:

Torris with wings.
http://www.project-future.org/stuff/things/TorrisWings.jpg

[ChaosMageX]

Question: When cloning a Cubi, why aren't the headwings present in the DNA when the backwings are?

My take is that it's not actually possible to clone a 'Cubi at all, you just end up with a Being who looks like the 'Cubi.  How Jakob's researchers managed to give 'it' backwings at all - let alone headwings - without altering the DNA to the point at which it would no longer match Jakob's... that is something you'd have to ask them.

I'm curious as to why that's your take on it.  Why wouldn't a matured cubi's DNA be different from a winged being?  I mean, sure, a cubi doesn't "pop" and mature until their early young adult years, but still, one would think the genetics for making the headwings are still there, and a clone would still "pop" when they reach that equivalent level of maturity in a test tube.

Genetically, I'd compare it to a caterpillar's metamorphosis into a butterfly.  The genes for the head wings are still there, and they come in as a very rapid cell growth process, like any metamorphosis.  It may appear instantaneous because in a way it's helped along by their clan's magic reserves, but with a high speed camera, I'm sure you could literally see a cubi's head wings growing out into place.

And wow, offing a clone of yourself would be hard, even if it didn't have a working mind.

Trying to make Torris cry in the last panel wasn't easy...

What exactly was your coloring technique to make that possible anyway?  Just small individual lines made to look like streams of tears?

But still, how exactly did Jakob "possess" his duplicate anyway?  I mean, was it some sort innate cubi ability that we haven't been told about yet, or does it fall under the category of mind reading?

It's just a spell.  Abel has mentioned making people into mind-slaves and Amber once described part of Devin's backstory where an Angel had created an amulet that allowed him to possess others or otherwise control their minds.
In this case it's not even going to be very hard because there isn't really a mind to take over.

On which page of the comic did Abel mention this?

I'd also be interested to see Amber's exact words on that subject, but it would probably take you too long to find exactly where she said it, so I'll just take your word for it for now.

You would be surprised how much a soulless clone can come in handy. Substitute corpse, replacement body parts, a new twist to Soylent Green.

And yes, replacement body parts are one of the reasons they were interested in it, but they couldn't really get it to do what Jakob had hoped and there were a lot of drawbacks.

Huh, I wonder what exactly those drawbacks were, as it indeed very much possible to clone individual tissues.  I know it's possible because it's actually done right now as part of the growing field of tissue engineering.

Someday, it will indeed be possible to clone replacement organs and limbs on their own without making a full body to go with them, if tissue engineers have anything to say about it.  They might even be printed out by a CNC printer, or grown bit by bit on top of extra-cellular matrices in separate bio-reactors and then grafted together into the full organ or limb.

Heck, by spreading ECM and growth factors on the nub of the limb, it might even be possible to just get the person to regrow their own limb.  A guy was able to regrow the tip of his finger, nail and all, with that technique.  Granted that growing back anything larger than that would be a much more complex process, but probably still doable under hospital conditions.  Just have the limb regrow into a hollow cast mold.

[Tapewolf]

I'm curious as to why that's your take on it.  Why wouldn't a matured cubi's DNA be different from a winged being?  I mean, sure, a cubi doesn't "pop" and mature until their early young adult years, but still, one would think the genetics for making the headwings are still there, and a clone would still "pop" when they reach that equivalent level of maturity in a test tube.

It's not just genetics, there's a magical component to it as well.  My assumption is that that bit doesn't 'take' properly.  I think Amber said something to that effect herself, but I'd have to find it.

http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,6023.msg279780.html#msg279780
[This is the answer, the question is repeated below]

What exactly was your coloring technique to make that possible anyway?  Just small individual lines made to look like streams of tears?

The tears I think I just added onto one of the glass tank layers.  Trying to get the shape right was the difficulty.

On which page of the comic did Abel mention this?

http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_576.php

I'd also be interested to see Amber's exact words on that subject, but it would probably take you too long to find exactly where she said it, so I'll just take your word for it for now.

She just mentioned it in passing on the old forum.  It's quoted on Devin's page on the wiki, if you really want to see it but I suspect you'll be disappointed, since if your questions in this thread are anything to go by, you're probably hoping for a complete disassembly of the spell that was utilised

Huh, I wonder what exactly those drawbacks were, as it indeed very much possible to clone individual tissues.  I know it's possible because it's actually done right now as part of the growing field of tissue engineering.

Cost.  Time taken to grow them.  Feeding them.  Keeping them clean.  Exercising them.  Being only able to clone Beings and not Creatures.  The fact that they only have the usual Being life expectancy and age quickly.  Massive failure rates.  Ethical problems.  The fact that it probably counts as Creating New Life in the eyes of the Being-Creature Commission.

[ChaosMageX]

I'm curious as to why that's your take on it.  Why wouldn't a matured cubi's DNA be different from a winged being?  I mean, sure, a cubi doesn't "pop" and mature until their early young adult years, but still, one would think the genetics for making the headwings are still there, and a clone would still "pop" when they reach that equivalent level of maturity in a test tube.

It's not just genetics, there's a magical component to it as well.  My assumption is that that bit doesn't 'take' properly.  I think Amber said something to that effect herself, but I'd have to find it.

http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,6023.msg279780.html#msg279780
[This is the answer, the question is repeated below]

Still, that has me very curious.  How exactly does it 'take' in the womb then, especially if only the father is a cubi?  Do all of a father incubi's sperm and mother succubi's eggs already have this magical aura in them?

On which page of the comic did Abel mention this?

http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_576.php

I believe in that page it was really only a joke, but it could probably be taken beyond face value unless Amber says otherwise.

Huh, I wonder what exactly those drawbacks were, as it indeed very much possible to clone individual tissues.  I know it's possible because it's actually done right now as part of the growing field of tissue engineering.

Cost.  Time taken to grow them.  Feeding them.  Keeping them clean.  Exercising them.  Being only able to clone Beings and not Creatures.  The fact that they only have the usual Being life expectancy and age quickly.  Massive failure rates.  Ethical problems.  The fact that it probably counts as Creating New Life in the eyes of the Being-Creature Commission.

Yeah, which is why it doesn't make sense to try to clone the entire body when more practical tissue engineering solutions that are currently in development right now in our time would be available then.  Why grow an entire freaking body and go through the process of caring for it when it would more practical to just grow the needed replacement tissues?

EDIT: Then again, it was Jakob's original goal to grow a full body for the purpose of life extension via soul transference, so that explains why he was growing full bodies.  Heck, he probably had a whole tissue engineering division of his company devoted to researching this very endeavor by combining futuristic techniques in tissue engineering.  How much did you study into tissue engineering when writing that part of FH?




Also, overall, I'd have to say that there probably is some magical aspect to a cubi's core genetic and cell structure.  This would be entirely feasible way of thinking it, since magically aided super rapid cell reproduction, differentiation, and apoptosis, and ECM breakdown and reconstruction are a fundamental part of the cubi shape shifting ability.  A cubi really is changing their body's composition and cell and ECM structure when they shape shift, which is why they don't have an aura of illusion magic about them that can be detected by others.
When Abel shape shifted into Merlitz, he had Merlitz's same outer cell structure and overall body shape, which is why Genesis couldn't detect his disguise, as opposed to Dan's fully magic based disguise.

However, I'm now curious as to how much cubi can shapeshift when morphing into someone else.  I'm assuming that since they only have their sight to go by, and also the act of precisely controlling their angiogenesis would be much more difficult, they probably couldn't fool a retinal scanner unless they had a magical way of scanning and replicating the retina of their victim.

I'm assuming that most of what cubi change is just the their outer skin and their inner bone and organ shape, which means that their fibrocytes must be incredibly powerful to shift their shape, which is why they'd also heal more rapidly and be more likely to recover from injuries that would probably prove fatal to a being or some other creatures.  I'm even thinking that Jin clan cubi have the innate ability to control the fibroblasts of others and thus accelerate the healing process.

And it would also explain why shape shifting new limbs, from extra eyes and arms and even the heads on the tentacle tips of the wings is a very difficult process, since the cubi has to force the cells to revert back to stem cells and differentiate into the new cells of the body part they're shifting.

[Tapewolf]

Still, that has me very curious.  How exactly does it 'take' in the womb then, especially if only the father is a cubi?  Do all of a father incubi's sperm and mother succubi's eggs already have this magical aura in them?

For that you'll have to ask Amber, and I wouldn't expect a reply.  I do appreciate questions and critique, but I honestly think you're trying to dig way, way further into the biomechanics of DMFA than either I or Amber have actually specced out.  This is a science fiction comic after all, not an article in Nature ;-)

Yeah, which is why it doesn't make sense to try to clone the entire body when more practical tissue engineering solutions that are currently in development right now in our time would be available then.  Why grow an entire freaking body and go through the process of caring for it when it would more practical to just grow the needed replacement tissues?

That may be true, but is irrelevant to Jakob.  The idea of the Android project was to create a compatible replacement body for someone who's too dead to be resurrected, or other situations like this one where a corpse and a living version of the same individual are both required.  Creatures can already regrow limbs and in any case, grafting a Being limb on would likely give you an arm that aged more rapidly than the rest of you which would suck.
With Beings there is some market potential, but Jakob was looking at a more general solution.

In this instance he was - after a great many rejects and freaks (which did not make him any happier about this) - able to hack it into creating a passable clone of himself, but for whatever reason, that was about the limit.  Afterwards, the bioengineering group was shut down.  Some quit to form a startup of their own, others were reassigned to try and make the brain-machine interface work for Josh's original body.

Maybe he didn't look into the more practical solutions because you're a software engineer and you didn't study into tissue engineering when writing the original FH.

Actually the real reason is because it's not relevant to the story ;-)

For what it's worth, I've already said too much and spoiled some of the future chapters.  Though by the time they run I suspect this will have been forgotten anyhow...

[Madmann135]

that answers a lot of questions but raises one minor/major question.
Where did they get John Cross's DNA in order to compare it against the "John Cross" that died.

[Tapewolf]

that answers a lot of questions but raises one minor/major question.
Where did they get John Cross's DNA in order to compare it against the "John Cross" that died.

The Being-Creature Council took a blood sample when he was arrested while filming a documentary about the nesting habits of Hate Eagles.  It's one of the stories in the CJP series, and it might be a good idea to do a version of that if I can find an artist willing to do backstories.

That said, there are a few holes in that story (broken headwings, ghosts) that are no longer plausible in the DMFA universe.  So I'd have to rewrite parts of it.

Maybe I should do this as a QFR strip or something.

[ChaosMageX]

that answers a lot of questions but raises one minor/major question.
Where did they get John Cross's DNA in order to compare it against the "John Cross" that died.

The Being-Creature Council took a blood sample when he was arrested while filming a documentary about the nesting habits of Hate Eagles.  It's one of the stories in the CJP series, and it might be a good idea to do a version of that if I can find an artist willing to do backstories.

That said, there are a few holes in that story (broken headwings, ghosts) that are no longer plausible in the DMFA universe.  So I'd have to rewrite parts of it.

Maybe I should do this as a QFR strip or something.

And now you've raised a few more questions:

What are hate eagles?

What do you mean by broken headwings?  Were the bones in them broken?

How were you using ghosts in this story?  Could they be fixed with any sort of plausible plot device (such as projections from soul stones), or would you have to write them out completely?

[Turnsky]

What are hate eagles?

you've obviously never heard of "Angry birds" 

[Sienna Maiu - M T]

But still, how exactly did Jakob "possess" his duplicate anyway?  I mean, was it some sort innate cubi ability that we haven't been told about yet, or does it fall under the category of mind reading?

I suspect the same way that they possess the robots to do the work down in the 'soul factory'

And wow, offing a clone of yourself would be hard, even if it didn't have a working mind.

Trying to make Torris cry in the last panel wasn't easy...

Wait, so does Torris even exist at all?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

For that you'll have to ask Amber, and I wouldn't expect a reply.  I do appreciate questions and critique, but I honestly think you're trying to dig way, way further into the biomechanics of DMFA than either I or Amber have actually specced out.  This is a science fiction comic after all, not an article in Nature ;-)

... I believe Amber's is a fantasy comic, too. Which makes the science in it even more accidental in nature. ;-]

Wait, so does Torris even exist at all?

I would say not, but that's up to TW...

[Sienna Maiu - M T]

Wait, so does Torris even exist at all?

I would say not, but that's up to TW...

It would surprisingly certainly make more sense that he doesn't.

[Tapewolf]

It would surprisingly certainly make more sense that he doesn't.

It's covered on the next page.

[Sienna Maiu - M T]

It would surprisingly certainly make more sense that he doesn't.

It's covered on the next page.

Huzzah for that then. *waits*

[Tapewolf]

Huzzah for that then. *waits*

May be a long wait.  I've got the top 2/3 of the comic, but not the vital bottom panels and Ren has had to take an early night owing to sickness.  Hopefully he'll be able to finish it tomorrow, but we'll have to see how he feels.

I blame it on an overdose of pony.

[Gabi]

What's with everyone and ponies these days?

[Sienna Maiu - M T]

I blame it on an overdose of pony.

I concur.

What's with everyone and ponies these days?

I know, right?

[Tapewolf]

What's with everyone and ponies these days?

While I'm hoping this doesn't derail the thread too much, I think this is the one that convinced me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKs-MHFil0k
...though the one based on the Skyrim trailer was also pretty funny.

So, uh.  What I have with the comic is now about 90% coloured, though it still needs a little more work.  Hopefully Ren will be able to provide the last row tomorrow. 

[ChaosMageX]

I blame it on an overdose of pony.

I concur.

What's with everyone and ponies these days?

I know, right?

I believe This Blog attempts to explain everyone's obsession with My Little Ponies: Friendship is Magic.

I think the gist of the blog's reasons for why the show is so popular is this:
--It's made by the Lauren Faust, who also made The Powerpuff Girls and Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends
--It has great animation and comedic timing
--It's so saccharine that it transcends its appeal and literally becomes a parody of what little girls like
--It's a drastic escape from the norm and stressful adult life
--There are many references to things that appeal to the adult audience, including references of Lord of the Rings and The A-Team.
--The character Rainbow Dash might be the first lesbian pony

And there are probably many more reasons that I can't remember from the blog or that weren't even mentioned in it at all, but I'll leave you all to watch the series and figure out those reasons for yourselves.

[Sienna Maiu - M T]

*still awaits*
Hope you don't get your site crashed out with too many F5's...

--The character Rainbow Dash might be the first lesbian pony

I don't know... based on watching the first four episodes tonight... Pinkie Pie seems to have a girl crush on Fluttershy. though this could be just meant as a nod to the fact it's the same voice actress

Also, it's pretty.

[Tapewolf]

If it's not too late, this is a decent summary:


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k216/tapewolf/dmfa/DMFA_MLP.png

...apologies to Amber, as usual