A study of the geo-political effect of industrial firearms in Furrae (long post)

[Eboreg]

Those of you who have constantly read DMFA know that there is an ongoing subplot about the oncoming one-man firearms revolution in Furrae and the amount of havoc it's destined to cause. I myself am a huge military history buff so I wanted to give my humble opinion on the changes caused by the release of the weapons that JyCorp has developed. First, let's start with some basics. The firearms currently present in Furrae are basically muzzle-loading, smoothbore flintlocks. These weapons were very inaccurate, caused damage only comparable to other weapons of the day i.e. a small wound channel, very slow-firing, and made a huge cloud of smoke every time they did fire. In fact, armies that used gunpowder weapons had no distinct advantage over armies that didn't and tactics of the day still focused on melee combat.

The firearms revolution changed things drastically. The first major upgrade in guns, the Minie Ball, gave them the ability to fire accurately over very long ranges and shatter bones. The wounding potential only got worse from then on with wound channels increasing in size and severity. Faster-firing weapons came online that made close-order formations suicidal and made stealth the primary tactic instead of shock. Finally, guns produced much less smoke making firearms much more stealthy than they were pre-Firearms Revolution. Another big change was that firearms became more and more easy to use up to the point you see today where anyone can acquire and train on a firearm making armies, by necessity, larger and less well-trained. These large armies vowing themselves to leaders very quickly allowed the centralization and consolidation of power into the modern definition of the nation state.

To those saying that magic would remain a viable alternative, please remember that even with magical creatures in abundance often getting into fights in the comic, they still remain very much at close range. This indicates that battle magic is a short range deal and the fact remains that even with the most powerful magic, you still can be taken down by a sniper hidden in a bush half a mile away. In a post-Firearms Revolution society, magic will be largely relegated to support, logistics, and healing with most of the offensive power being taken over by guns.

The political effects of the introduction of industrial firearms will be nothing short of anarchy. Beings will suddenly figure out that these new weapons give them a massive advantage against those that don't have them. Adventuring would quickly turn into a quick and dirty affair probably taken over by less people per party and would probably disappear altogether when people figure out that they can take care of revenge killing just as easily as any trained adventurer. Any pretense to justice will be quickly replaced by cold-blooded mobbery. This situation cannot last as people will quickly realize that a more orderly system would be needed to prevent all of the cases of cold-blooded murder. After all, as Larry Niven said, "Anarchy is the least stable of social structures". Charismatic individuals would quickly gain massive followings to form nation-states with professional armies armed with JyCorp specials. However, the future of all races would depend on these leaders meaning that it would be best for them to understand both the Being and Creature point of views, a requirement that, oddly enough, most of the main cast meet.

For now, I will talk about the effects of the Firearms Revolution on every race from those who suffer the worst to those who benefit the best:

Dragons: I honestly feel sorry for these guys post-Firearms Revolution since they will go from "most powerful thing on the planet" to "biggest target". While the Demonology page states that their hide is impenetrable, I am personally of the opinion that high-powered industrial firearms will quickly change that. This is compounded by the fact that no race holds a grudge as much as the Dragons. From all I've seen, the Dragon-Cubi war never ended for them, probably due to the fact that the vast majority of the race most likely lived through that war based on their natural lifespan whereas it is very likely that most of the Cubi that survived that war have died of old age by now. The other deal is that Dragons are very proud of their power and, from the looks of things, will do anything to protect that power. This may lead to them getting very violent with the Being populace and end in a lot of natural selection in action. The worst part of it is that if they can really destroy universes, than we better damn well be rooting for Destania.

Demons: Put simply, the Demon's ethos of "Be Strong or Be Killed" is going to get a lot of them killed. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they are completely wiped out by natural selection in action. However, if enough are willing to rethink that ideology, then there is hope.

Mer: The Mer's current ideologies are set on a collision course with the land-dweller's technology. Put simply, imagine a bunch of Mer coming to the surface to seize an unregistered vessel only to find that it is a battleship armed to the teeth with JyCorp specials. Much like the same situation that China found itself in during the late 19th century.

Insectis: With the surface dwellers suddenly finding themselves with the means to fend off Insectis attack, these bugs are going to find themselves in much the same position as the Mer. However, they can very easily turn this around with free trade agreements but I see a lot of Insectoid blood being spilled before then.

Gryphon (B): Honestly, I see this race either undergoing a massive shakeup or dying in poverty but this has a lot more to do with the prevalence of automotives and airliners than with the introduction of firearms.

Phoenix (A): These fellows are too reputable among too many circles to be affected by the Firearms Revolution.

Gryphon (A) and Fae: There is too little information about these races to draw a conclusion.

Mythos: There are so many variants of Mythos that it is impossible to draw a conclusion.

Synthetic: There is too little information about these creatures to draw a conclusion but I am firmly convinced that Mab had a hand in Macey's creation for the simple reason that artificial intelligence doesn't just happen. This means that they will have a large part in the upcoming world but what it is is completely uncertain.

Were: With the Firearms Revolution, the Were's special ability will be largely reduced to parlor trick. The only advantage I can see is if the feral form is something small giving them a massive stealth advantage. This would allow them to get close to enemies and either spy on them or blow them away in a fireworks display of magic. However, the violent dethroning of the Dragons would make them much more open about their heritage.

Cubi: While they will suffer in the initial stages of the Firearms Revolution, they do have the ability to blend in with their surroundings and if that fails, they can always retreat to SAIA. Not to mention that the Cubi are already mounting an effective civil rights movement. It won't be long before national leaders recognize the utility of keeping a mind-reading shapeshifter on their payroll for espionage and counter-espionage. They would also be of valuable use to the justice system. Also, the logistic advantages of having a soldier who doesn't need to eat or sleep are readily apparent and the fact that some don't have to breathe would make them better marksman than average. However, this is tempered by the fact that they tend to lose their cool so Cubi will not likely see a great role on the battlefield.

Angel: As born politicians, Angels will be in their element during the initial stages of the Firearms Revolution. They could very skillfully manipulate the ensuing chaos to their advantage until they are in prestigious positions of power. However, they do have to keep in mind that everyone who would want to could kill one of them and it will take a while to get used to that but not before some blood is spilled.

Phoenix (B): Their post-Firearms Revolution place will be largely connected to that of Beings due to their integration in Being society, speaking of which ...

Being: Put simply, Beings will go from the very bottom of the totem pole to the very top. The necessity of maintaining large conscript armies during a post-Firearms Revolution society will make them very much the backbone of all militaries. Also, Beings' short lifespan will ensure that not too many of them are left behind by the rapid change in technologies making them the greatest source for inventors and innovators.

Undead: Put quite simply, Undead will be the most dangerous enemy one could face on the battlefield. We all know that they only die to headshots so that's something big right there. Machine guns will be practically worthless against massive Undead formations so that the only way to break them up would be with massive quantities of high explosive. Even then, it's very likely that the Undead won't die but instead be disabled. This is compounded by the fact that anyone could be an Undead if he wanted to so that those classic scenes from zombie movies will very quickly become commonplace on the battlefield except for the fact that all of the zombies will be carrying guns. Not to mention that Undead don't have a heartbeat giving them a big advantage in marksmanship. Every military will seek to make use of Undead from weekly "vaccinations" to Necromancer Overlord with the various ethical dilemmas that come with each.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Counterpoints, then.

Mer: They don't have to surface to sink an unregistered ship. All they need to do is show up under it and start poking holes in the bottom.

Gryphon (C): These might make some difference to how airliners and Gryphon (A) get on. After all, what's to stop one of them taking the same sort of line that they did with Jyrras' mech? Without even dinner - and the onboard movies probably don't count either.


I'm not sure about your opinions on Undead and Beings, either; if the various Creature races decide that Beings are a threat, you can bet that they'll not baulk at genocide, or something close to it.


Either way, I foresee a lot of blood in the not too distant future.

[Eboreg]

Counterpoints, then.

Mer: They don't have to surface to sink an unregistered ship. All they need to do is show up under it and start poking holes in the bottom.

Fair enough, a destroyer armed with massive depth charges, sonar, and hydrophones. The massive pressure wave alone would cause some nasty damage.

Gryphon (C): These might make some difference to how airliners and Gryphon (A) get on. After all, what's to stop one of them taking the same sort of line that they did with Jyrras' mech? Without even dinner - and the onboard movies probably don't count either.

Two words llearch, fighter jets. Jets of a sufficiently advanced technology would be able to fly high enough that Gryphon Cs won't be a problem so the only real challenge would be on takeoff and landing. This would allow jets armed with JyCorp specials to patrol a small area to protect any passenger or cargo planes in these vulnerable stages and shoot 20 mm gatling guns at anything big and feathery.

I'm not sure about your opinions on Undead and Beings, either; if the various Creature races decide that Beings are a threat, you can bet that they'll not baulk at genocide, or something close to it.

Whether they would be able to pull that off is another major factor. It really all depends on who JyCorp is going to be willing to sell the guns to.

Either way, I foresee a lot of blood in the not too distant future.

At least we can agree on that.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

hang on. You're jumping from pistols to fighter jets?

Whilst I can understand, from what we've seen, that _Jyrras_ can create such things... I think you're taking some leeway with how much he's willing to let out. Even if someone were to break in, I don't think they'd get that far - after all, his house _is_ a maze of twisty little passages, all alike...

[Eboreg]

Why would Amber focus so much on Jyrras's farming equipment if she didn't plan to introduce it all to Furrae at large at some point?

[joshofspam]

Why would Amber focus so much on Jyrras's farming equipment if she didn't plan to introduce it all to Furrae at large at some point?

Plot point to show what Jyrras is capable of.

Note, just because someone is capable of something, it doesn't necessarily mean they do it. So while Jyrras is capable of building a lot of things, that doesn't mean Jyrras will make them or at the most, grand scale the construction of such things.

Remember Jyrras effects this as much as any race and you can't deny the effects of the individuals in these groups that might have a large say in these things. Heh, lets face it, Kria was charmed by Jyrras for simply biting her ankle. What would she do if she saw Jyrras acting and armed like Rambo?

You also got to figure in the cost and materials for such things. Without backing, even Jyrras's wealth would be hard pressed to supply any side at the rate and quantity necessarily to arm a single side without the other side taking note.

[Tezkat]

Many of the assumptions underlying your analysis are either groundless or directly refuted by canon evidence and word of goddess. (It's vaguely amusing, for instance, that you deny the official word on Dragon hides being impenetrable right before bringing up the possibility that they can destroy entire universes.)

We have official (indeed, repeated) word of goddess statements that bullets can be blocked by simple shielding spells and that bullets are not enchantable the way arrows can be.

There's little reason to believe that guns would outrange magic, either. Certainly, we know that detection magic is effective out to very long range, even across dimensions, so targeting per se wouldn't be the limiting factor.

Every single magical attack in comics that had the potential to inflict lethal damage (i.e. not a stun spell or the like) was fatal in one hit unless blocked by shielding magic, even those cast by relatively young, presumably lower level Creatures and Adventurers such as Devin, Selev, and/or Selev's brother. That exchange took place at range (the exact distance being hard to estimate due to the weird perspective, but it at least appeared greater than effective handgun range). It didn't require much aiming, either; Devin and Xander died to what looked more like suppressive fire than targeted snipes, and Devin's counterattack on Selev was practically a siege AoE that took out a tower. (We do have word from Amber, albeit very dated, indicating that attack magic can autohit.) Higher level Creatures like Aleph toss out lethal spells casually in mid-sentence. And Cyra destroyed a city that was defended by a Dragon. Yeah... even if Beings get guns, Creatures still have nukes.


But, for the sake of argument, let's just say that JyCorp floods the market with weapons capable of penetrating Creatures' innate and magical defences. Even then, your analysis of the strategic military and geopolitical implications is flawed.


As you noted, the revolutionary impact of the introduction and improvement of firearms lay in the potential to mass an army of relatively untrained conscripts. Developing the skill, reflexes, and musculature to be dangerous with a sword or bow demands years of training, but a new soldier can be fairly deadly with a firearm in months. That's not terribly applicable to a Being-Creature conflict, however, which is inherently (and extremely) asymetrical. You're not asking scared farmers with guns to hunt down other scared farmers with guns. You're effectively asking scared farmers with guns to hunt down the Predator or a BattleMech. That's not going to go so well.

Successfully taking down dangerous Creatures should require a fair bit of skill even with guns. It's not merely a matter of pointing and shooting at Creatures. You have to kill them before they kill you, which they have many nasty ways of accomplishing, and you are unlikely to pull off without significant training. Sure, I could see some of these guns becoming popular for anti-Demon home defence and such, but (at the risk of sparking another gun control debate) that's likely to make Beings more dangerous to each other than Creatures. Gun-wielding amateur Adventurer wannabes would be little more than fodder.

Now, keep in mind that Furrae doesn't even have the benefit of centuries of experience with previous iterations of firearms. Extant firearms are curiosities not used in combat. There won't be any generational transfer of knowledge about these new weapons for, well, generations. People won't even know how to train with them at first. Do you really expect to someone who's never even heard of guns to pick up an alien sniper rifle and figure out how to be deadly half a mile out? Just think about all the things that go into modern sniping--not just raw shooting skills but tactical positioning at previously unfamiliar engagement ranges, techniques to compensate for wind, gravity, planetary curvature, and so on... These things took a lot of trial and error over many decades of armed conflict to work out.

I don't see adoption of these weapons being particularly rapid, either. Certainly, Adventurer Guilds will exhibit institutional resistance to converting over from their tried and true magic swords and whatnot. We'll see early adopters, of course. And the ones that survive will be able to train the next generation and so on until, some decades down the line, gun wielding Adventurers may be a common sight. By then, however, Creatures will have had many years to get used to them. Do you think they'll remain passive during this arms race?

Will it even be an arms race? Is an Adventurer with a gun significantly more dangerous than an Adventurer with a magic wand? It may just be business as usual with slightly different aesthetics. The ability of firearms to serve as a force multiplier to the masses as it has in our world may not even be relevant.

And if it ever does turn out to be the case that gun tech overpowers magic, the most likely outcome would simply be Beings with guns facing Creatures with guns. With their already superior financial resources and established power base, Creatures should have access to better guns.


There's no evidence of military culture in Furrae. The political organization of this world seems to be small kingdoms and city-states rather than sprawling nations, and it's mostly divided among Creatures who settle their differences without Beings' help. Large scale conflicts involving many Beings are simply unheard of. There's no precedent for the large, organized Being soldiery needed to support major armed conflicts or mechanized armies. Not only would there be no generals, there won't really be anyone who understands what that means.

Mer: They don't have to surface to sink an unregistered ship. All they need to do is show up under it and start poking holes in the bottom.

Fair enough, a destroyer armed with massive depth charges, sonar, and hydrophones. The massive pressure wave alone would cause some nasty damage.

Every single example Amber has provided of Mer offensives against land dwellers featured them using water as a weapon, not pokey things. Ships are honestly not that hard to sink when you control the waves. The Mer are not going to allow the development of undersea military vessels, and I don't see it being possible without their leave. It's not at all unreasonable to conclude that Mer dominance of the waterways will remain unchallenged for the foreseeable future. Honestly, the best case scenario for any would be revolutionaries has the Mer remaining neutral and uninvolved.


So let's segue into other important geopolitical considerations, such as sociopolitical upheaval and resource economies. For instance, let's say that some Beings have taken up arms and overthrown their Creature masters to declare themselves an independent Being state.

And then what?

The neighbouring states are still mostly controlled by Creatures. If they're anything like every ruler ever, they'll be concerned about this potential threat to their power and take steps to contain or eliminate it. Even civilized areas already dominated by Beings will have powers that be that want to stay in power, which at the very least would mean restricting these dangerous new weapons to their own guards and/or Adventurers for the sake of law and order. Furrae may not be particularly advanced in terms of weapons tech, but it's had an advanced telecommunications network for centuries. Once bad things start to happen because of guns, people everywhere will hear about it, and they won't want the chaos to spread.

It's also vital to remember that many Beings benefit from Creature rule. Creature control and higher taxes are the price they pay for security. Even the smaller settlements not already under the protection of Creatures likely trade with places that are. Local revolutionaries will find themselves up against the established order. Arming them with guns will lead to bloody Being on Being civil war rather than emancipation from Creature dominance. Indeed, Creatures are likely to come out ahead in the public eye and cement their power, as they'd be the ones with the power to protect people from the gun-wielding rebels.

Two words llearch, fighter jets. Jets of a sufficiently advanced technology would be able to fly high enough that Gryphon Cs won't be a problem so the only real challenge would be on takeoff and landing. This would allow jets armed with JyCorp specials to patrol a small area to protect any passenger or cargo planes in these vulnerable stages and shoot 20 mm gatling guns at anything big and feathery.

The prospect of fielding jet fighters and warships under such conditions is laughable. Now we're not only talking about training with alien technology but also developing all the infrastructure to support it, which is extremely vulnerable to both trade sanctions and direct attacks/sabotage.

Warships and fighter jets consume massive quantities of energy. Where does that come from? A mage with a fireball (and stealth or transportation magic) can pretty much shut down any ground based flow of fossil fuels to a region (such as pipelines or tanker trucks). Water based transit requires not only appropriate geography but the consent of the Mer.

Airfields, fuel tanks, power generation facilities, factories... Any kind of strategic infrastructure is highly vulnerable to the types of attacks that magic is very, very good at. Even if they don't prevent Beings from getting their paws on war machines in the first place, Creatures can deny the ability to employ them. Why would Creatures permit their use? (If they did, it would simply give the Creatures another powerful weapon and do little to alter the balance of power.)

I'm not sure about your opinions on Undead and Beings, either; if the various Creature races decide that Beings are a threat, you can bet that they'll not baulk at genocide, or something close to it.

Whether they would be able to pull that off is another major factor. It really all depends on who JyCorp is going to be willing to sell the guns to.

A not insignificant issue. Jyrras is building these things because it's cool and because it's there. Does he look like an arms dealer to you? Once he realizes the pain and suffering his toys are causing, it's a safe bet that JyCorp will be out of the arms business, which means you'll have a further period of years before others are able to reverse engineer and build the infrastructure to reproduce his tech, let alone learn how to improve and adapt them to real military theatres.

The danger that Jyrras represents is not as a source of high tech implements of destruction, but rather the potential to show the world that these things are possible. That's revolutionary. But not so immediately game changing that rest of the world won't have time to adapt.


Heck, the more believable scenario would have Jyrras feeling personally responsible for all the damage his inventions have caused, building a suit of super-advanced power armour, and flying around the world destroying all his dangerous creations.

[Ignuus66]

Many of the assumptions underlying your analysis are either groundless or directly refuted by canon evidence and word of goddess. (It's vaguely amusing, for instance, that you deny the official word on Dragon hides being impenetrable right before bringing up the possibility that they can destroy entire universes.)

We have official (indeed, repeated) word of goddess statements that bullets can be blocked by simple shielding spells and that bullets are not enchantable the way arrows can be.

There's little reason to believe that guns would outrange magic, either. Certainly, we know that detection magic is effective out to very long range, even across dimensions, so targeting per se wouldn't be the limiting factor.

Every single magical attack in comics that had the potential to inflict lethal damage (i.e. not a stun spell or the like) was fatal in one hit unless blocked by shielding magic, even those cast by relatively young, presumably lower level Creatures and Adventurers such as Devin, Selev, and/or Selev's brother. That exchange took place at range (the exact distance being hard to estimate due to the weird perspective, but it at least appeared greater than effective handgun range). It didn't require much aiming, either; Devin and Xander died to what looked more like suppressive fire than targeted snipes, and Devin's counterattack on Selev was practically a siege AoE that took out a tower. (We do have word from Amber, albeit very dated, indicating that attack magic can autohit.) Higher level Creatures like Aleph toss out lethal spells casually in mid-sentence. And Cyra destroyed a city that was defended by a Dragon. Yeah... even if Beings get guns, Creatures still have nukes.


But, for the sake of argument, let's just say that JyCorp floods the market with weapons capable of penetrating Creatures' innate and magical defences. Even then, your analysis of the strategic military and geopolitical implications is flawed.

I have a feeling that Jy's 95<% pure items, once mass produced, would have the capability to ignore magic, since, what I theorize, is that magic can only influence magic, thus something that is 100% pure would not only be difficult to enchant, it would completely ignore magic and all magical elements. Which means that all magical shields would be bypassed. That, IMO is the reason there was such emphasis on the magic-less items.

But, as stated above, guns would not fundementally change the balance of power without other things.
Ahem
But if someone came in with the whole nuclear stockpile of the Soviet union at the peak of the cold war...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmXHvGZiSY
Anyone smell tea?

[Eboreg]

*States that guns are worthless and will never do anything*

I don't think that Mab agrees with you. In comic 1029 she said, "Jyrras is the one. I just know it. If he can do, it will be a revolution and will completely change the order of power here!" Also, that fight in Abel's Story you brought up is still very much close range for Industrial firearms. I estimate that that watchtower was only 50 meters away, half the average effective range of a musket. Also, most of the city destructions presented in the comic could be explained as more of a spree killing than a bombing and the destruction of a city by Cyra was completely unexpected even to her so I think that's a case of more the exception than the rule. In response to the statement that Dragon's hide is impenetrable, in the real world "Impenetrable" doesn't mean no ifs, ands, or buts about it, it means no-one has been able to do it yet. As previously stated, industrial firearms mean a massive increase in power and penetration capability so it's very likely that they'll be the first to do so. Also, I remember making a post considering the possibility that Dragons were afraid of humans because they always mass-produced weapons that could easily take Dragons out and it was taken without any complaint by even Tapewolf.

*Points out the possibility of Creatures with guns*

I don't see Creatures getting guns as quickly as Beings. A lot of it will depend on personal pride and the fact that their abilities worked before. Beings, on the other hand, are oppressed and looking for any advantage and history shows that the underdogs change quicker. Besides, even if the Creatures did get them, that doesn't stop the fact that two people with guns are almost always evenly matched. Even if the creatures had better firearms, it's still largely a matter of stealth, marksmanship, and a little bit of luck.

Every single example Amber has provided of Mer offensives against land dwellers featured them using water as a weapon, not pokey things. Ships are honestly not that hard to sink when you control the waves. The Mer are not going to allow the development of undersea military vessels, and I don't see it being possible without their leave. It's not at all unreasonable to conclude that Mer dominance of the waterways will remain unchallenged for the foreseeable future. Honestly, the best case scenario for any would be revolutionaries has the Mer remaining neutral and uninvolved.

It really depends on how high beneath the surface the Mer need to be to engage ships. If depth charges and sensors can outrange the Mers' abilities then all bets are off.

*Points out lack of instability in current Furraean governments and that a lack of likelihood that Beings would self-rule*

I will, again, point out that Mab thinks that Jyrras's inventions will cause a revolution and massive change in the power structure. I also never said that Beings will dominate their own societies, that is an uncertainty, I only said that power will be based on charisma instead of martial prowess. I gave full understanding that Creatures would maneuver themselves into positions of power during the chaos. I only said that NATIONS were certain, not democracies.

*states logistics problems of fielding fighters*

I should note that the Gryphon demonology page states that airliners are common enough for Gryphons to feel threatened by their presence. This indicates that all of that infrastructure already exists and the only thing stopping the introduction of fighter planes is the lack of practical weapons to arm them with. Also, I stated that fighter planes would be used to protect airfields from Gryphon Cs. This has nothing to do with Being-Creature conflicts and would probably result in no more resentment than that caused by losing your job to a migrant worker. At least, until they're deployed in more martial settings but by then, it would be too late.

[Ignuus66]

I should note that the Gryphon demonology page states that airliners are common enough for Gryphons to feel threatened by their presence. This indicates that all of that infrastructure already exists and the only thing stopping the introduction of fighter planes is the lack of practical weapons to arm them with. Also, I stated that fighter planes would be used to protect airfields from Gryphon Cs. This has nothing to do with Being-Creature conflicts and would probably result in no more resentment than that caused by losing your job to a migrant worker. At least, until they're deployed in more martial settings but by then, it would be too late.

An airplane with guns does not a fighter jet make.

[Eboreg]

@Ignuus: True but "fighter jet" is easier to say though I probably overstepped when I said "jet". There is some evidence that jet engines exist in Furrae but not a lot.

[joshofspam]

You know the interesting thing about this is we're talking about how weapons with a certain percentage without magic would be effective against creatures.

But I don't think anyone has mentioned how effective the process itself might be effective against them. Case in point, From a certain standpoint, a lot of the advantages that Creatures have are at least partially fueled by magic. Diamond hard skin, spells and such. Other things not so much, like wings and extra appendages extra. Strength is debatable to the size and strength of the Creature.

If you remove magic from some of these Creatures, some won't be much more dangerous then your standard being. Even if you account for the magic in the environment to recharge them or a natural ability to metabolize magic on it's own, it will probably be a while till the body gains enough stability with that magic flow to use any of it.

[Tapewolf]

Also, I remember making a post considering the possibility that Dragons were afraid of humans because they always mass-produced weapons that could easily take Dragons out and it was taken without any complaint by even Tapewolf.

I'm not convinced it's true, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the theory.

I don't see Creatures getting guns as quickly as Beings. A lot of it will depend on personal pride and the fact that their abilities worked before. Beings, on the other hand, are oppressed and looking for any advantage and history shows that the underdogs change quicker. Besides, even if the Creatures did get them, that doesn't stop the fact that two people with guns are almost always evenly matched. Even if the creatures had better firearms, it's still largely a matter of stealth, marksmanship, and a little bit of luck.

This I'm really not sure about.  I haven't seen much evidence that Beings are any more oppressed than any other race.  Yeah, we had an expose on the Being-Creature Council being skewed in favour of Kria/Regina [EDIT: in that particular instance - we don't have any counterexamples], but in that same arc we also had a bunch of adventurers eager to kill anything with wings (arguably they were right wrt. Destania, but taking that as a general rule is dangerous).

Personally?  I get the impression that the world political situation has reached a rather ugly stalemate with every side sniping at every other side, and that is what Mab is trying to break.

The other thing I would question is the assertion that Beings will definitely get the weapons first, and that's something we cannot take for granted.  Personally, I'd say it's leaning the other way.
Yes, Jyrras has invented the weapons, but he did so almost certainly with help and prompting from Mab and Jyrras is notably pro-Creature in his attitudes.
Given the glow, the handgun seems to be partially magical itself so it may be that Beings can't easily produce the weapons on their own anyway.  Also, the Creature Council raised the possibility of turning him to their side.  Since Albanion is apparently on that council, it's entirely possible that that will drop the weapons technology straight into their lap.

Another thing that might be worth taking into consideration is the theory that the ammunition has to be made from magic-free metals, and that would pierce Creatures more effectively.  That may be true, but it's equally possible that it's intended to pierce these instead:
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Abel_58.php

Amber has done a really good job of making the political situation as clear as mud

[Tezkat]

I don't think that Mab agrees with you. In comic 1029 she said, "Jyrras is the one. I just know it. If he can do, it will be a revolution and will completely change the order of power here!"

Why are you assuming that Mab is talking about guns? Jyrras's other notable accomplishments thus far include distilling the magic out of matter, enabling all races to shapeshift, building giant robots, and creating artificial life. I think we've already established that Jyrras doesn't have what it takes to be a merchant of death. Unless of course Mab's twisted plans involve breaking the roo rat until he just wants to see the world burn...

Also, most of the city destructions presented in the comic could be explained as more of a spree killing than a bombing and the destruction of a city by Cyra was completely unexpected even to her so I think that's a case of more the exception than the rule.

That's an absurd reading of Cyra's comment. She didn't turn a Dragon and its city to glass by accident. She lamented that doing so sparked the war that wiped out her clan and much of her race. It's a safe bet that Creatures of her power level can destroy cities quite voluntarily.

In response to the statement that Dragon's hide is impenetrable, in the real world "Impenetrable" doesn't mean no ifs, ands, or buts about it, it means no-one has been able to do it yet.

The frame of reference for "impenetrable skin" and "easily take on an army of beings and even a few creature forces" wouldn't be medieval pop guns. It would be existing anti-Creature weapons and magic--blades otherwise capable of cleaving the "diamond hard" skin of Demons, for instance. Logically, that places the bare minimum possible requirement for anti-Dragon weaponry as being able to penetrate armour harder than diamond. You leaped from Minie ball bullets straight to futuristic antitank penetrators.

I don't see Creatures getting guns as quickly as Beings. A lot of it will depend on personal pride and the fact that their abilities worked before. Beings, on the other hand, are oppressed and looking for any advantage and history shows that the underdogs change quicker. Besides, even if the Creatures did get them, that doesn't stop the fact that two people with guns are almost always evenly matched. Even if the creatures had better firearms, it's still largely a matter of stealth, marksmanship, and a little bit of luck.

Hmm. Both parties have guns. One of them also has superhuman speed, strength, endurance, senses, and/or magic that can stealth, detect, teleport, control the battlefield, and so on. A good number of them don't even consider having limbs blown off and such to be serious injuries. That's not quite as fair a fight as you suggest.


And, really, how will guns qualitatively change the Being experience? Beings already have access to magic wands, which are pocket sized, deadly, and autohitting. That's been Amber's argument against guns all along: Why would someone want a gun when wands are categorically superior? Guns are basically alien technology in Furrae, so buyers would lump them into the most recognizable category: wands that are less practical than existing offerings due to being bulkier, louder, and harder to aim and maintain. We've already seen that even low level battle magic is easily fatal, so raw stopping power wouldn't be the main selling point.

Merely introducing firearms will not, in itself, engender a paradigm shift. Even if guns do, say, have the ability to penetrating magical shielding, then they're still just a rather clumsy spell penetrating wand. The potential revolution lies not in the power of firearms compared to magical weaponry but rather their means of production, as ordinary Beings could produce weapons comparable to those created by mages. And that will only happen if the production technology itself becomes widely available. Sourcing weapons from JyCorp alone wouldn't be a significantly different consumer experience than buying a wand from Matilda.

Not only does the notion that guns would be better than magical weapons run counter to available canon evidence and public statements by the creator of the comic, their being so isn't actually required to have "revolutionary" effects.

It really depends on how high beneath the surface the Mer need to be to engage ships. If depth charges and sensors can outrange the Mers' abilities then all bets are off.

Again, you're making the entirely unreasonable jump straight from trying to militarize seacraft to effective anti-Mer depth charges and sensors. Unless Jyrras wakes up one morning and decides to wipe out the Mer, there will have to be intermediary stages during which people recognize the need for such weapons, test them, refine them, and so on. In other words, Beings are unlikely to develop this tech until they're already at war with the Mer. And once they're at war with the Mer, they probably won't be given the chance.

I will, again, point out that Mab thinks that Jyrras's inventions will cause a revolution and massive change in the power structure. I also never said that Beings will dominate their own societies, that is an uncertainty, I only said that power will be based on charisma instead of martial prowess. I gave full understanding that Creatures would maneuver themselves into positions of power during the chaos. I only said that NATIONS were certain, not democracies.

Except that mere access to guns will not reasonably produce the paths to nation building you describe. JyCorp won't be supporting any bloody revolutions. At least not after the first one, and that will be unintentional. As noted above, the big paradigm shift doesn't occur until after JyCorp exits the arms market. Following that, we'll see a lag during which various parties struggle to reproduce his tech. And that R&D will, more likely than not, occur with the funding and support of the powers that be--who will then control the supply of firearms. Far from a means for oppressed commoners to rise up, it will become a tool for those in power to cement their positions.

I should note that the Gryphon demonology page states that airliners are common enough for Gryphons to feel threatened by their presence. This indicates that all of that infrastructure already exists and the only thing stopping the introduction of fighter planes is the lack of practical weapons to arm them with. Also, I stated that fighter planes would be used to protect airfields from Gryphon Cs. This has nothing to do with Being-Creature conflicts and would probably result in no more resentment than that caused by losing your job to a migrant worker. At least, until they're deployed in more martial settings but by then, it would be too late.

Um... there are quite a few steps between airplanes and fighters. And merely providing access to war machines doesn't make you effective with them.

Read some of the strategic analyses of China's potential as a naval power, for instance. Yay, they now have an aircraft carrier, but they lack the experienced admiralties and crews needed to prosecute conflicts. Even with the benefit of massive finances, other countries to use as role models, and centuries of literature on naval strategy and tactics, it still will be decades before their navy develops the generational skill base that allows them to become a serious threat to the region's other naval powers. The Beings of Furrae don't even have that as a starting point.

I'll stand by my earlier point regarding the infrastructure as well. The costs of constructing a fighter jet are dwarfed by the resources required to support it. Even if the former goes through, the latter can still be denied by Creatures with a stake in doing so.

[Ignuus66]

People keep forgetting about depleted uranium, that stuff can pack a punch and is far from futuristic. Of course if depleted uranium exists, so must nuclear weapons, so that might be a long shot.
                     
Stupid stuff below, you have been warned.

On the other hand, jyrras has a few quite futuristic weapons, and I would not be surprised if he made a material harder than diamond. (we already know of quite a few like that) Of course making that into a weapon is a different story altogether, but I'd imagine the pinnacle of anti-creature weapons would fire palladium microalloy glass bullets that are 100% pure by transforming magical energy into mechanical one.
Also I do love palladium microalloy glass.

EDIT: a slightly offtopic note, what about chemical, nuclear and/or biological weapons? terrorism can become a serious problem if WMD-s are developed, as heated opinions and hate is VERY much relevant.

Anyone else getting the feeling amber is looking at this and laughing evilly?  

[Mao]

Anyone else getting the feeling amber is looking at this and laughing evilly? 

No.  I get the feeling she's actually facepalming pretty hard.

[Ignuus66]

Anyone else getting the feeling amber is looking at this and laughing evilly? 

No.  I get the feeling she's actually facepalming pretty hard.

You have a point there.

[Eboreg]

@Tezkat: I should note that during all of the major revolutions of the 19th century, the very first action the revolutionaries committed to start the war was always breaking into the armory and stealing all of the guns. Also, superhuman speed, strength, endurance, and senses will not stop the bullet of a gun. It may give a slight advantage but only slight. And one may not consider blown off limbs a major injury but he will think very differently about a perforated heart. You also have to consider that political power is very closely related to military power. Also, puncturing or cutting diamond is hard but breaking it is a lot easier. Just a point of reference, how hard an object is is directly related to how brittle it is, which is why you didn't have some rich medieval gobshite create diamond armor a la Minecraft. As for giant robots, as a military buff, I look at giant walking robots and think, "what use are they?" They have really bad balance, they're huge targets, they by nature have less armor than smaller tracked vehicles, they're slow, they can't carry much in the way of heavy weapons due to recoil, and the legs are an obvious target that, if shot out, could cause serious damage! Also, I don't think you understand the meaning of the word nation. A nation is a unified, centralized state stretching over multiple cities. It is NOT rule by the people, that would be a democracy or a republic.

[Dressari]

Can I just make a point to something, for reference.

Some keep referencing materials and elements that we find on Earth as their ideasfor how the weapons are made and what sort of ammo can be used in them.

Reminder: Furrae is not Earth. We can't really make the assumption the same materials we find on Earth are exactly the same you would find on Furrae. Maybe there are similar ones but there also exists the possibility that those elements do not exist at all.

Imagine a world that didn't have saltpeter and sulfur. Those two elements alone are somewhat essential to making gunpowder if I understand my research correctly. But then again recent advances in technology has developed weapons those don't require gunpowder anymore. If it doesn't in Furrae then it begs how the gun Jyrras used is firing, when he did back in the comic it didn't really make a loud cracking sound. "Dfft!"? I'm not sure how that's supposed to sound but it didn't appear loud in the comic.

Anyway my point is we have no idea what kind of materials exist on Furrae. Uranium? Titanium? Certain chemicals? They may not exist or even been discovered yet.

I have a feeling that Jy's 95<% pure items, once mass produced, would have the capability to ignore magic, since, what I theorize, is that magic can only influence magic, thus something that is 100% pure would not only be difficult to enchant, it would completely ignore magic and all magical elements. Which means that all magical shields would be bypassed. That, IMO is the reason there was such emphasis on the magic-less items.

Actually this is something I've been wondering about too. Assuming that's what a 100% natural object would seemingly do, there would technically be a counterpoint to this. It depends if it ignores or instead interferes with. Either way whats to say these 100% magical items are even usable by Creatures and Beings who are magically inclined themselves, that would mean only Beings who have absolutely no magical prowess at all would be able to use said guns. And from what we see, that's not actually a very big number either. The fact Jyrras himself is capable of filtering out magical residue from objects clearly shows he has some magical aptitude.

If that is not the case and 100% natural items ARE usable by virtually everyone. Then if you ask me the guns won't level the playing field by much, it'll just make magical defenses obsolete.

And I don't see the weapons that are 100% natural being selective on who can use them. It wouldn't make sense if say, for example only Beings could use them even with magical abilities and not creatures. Ideally, it should be one way or the other in terms of who can and can't use it.

Actually the ONLY I can see that happening is if Beings are still classified as non-magical entities even with the exposure and usage of the magical residues that are apparent in Furrae. But that is just confusing, I would think that anyone on Furrae, Being or Creature that can use magic or is exposed to magic would fall under the same rules as each other.

This conundrum really is actually a pretty defining point in how this plays out and how Amber has written the rules down.

[Lying Foo]

I smell tea indeed.

Wait, that's whiskey.  Will do.

Regardless, the thing about spree killers is that most of them don't have rocket launchers.  The balance of power will change, since after all, a spree killer with a rocket launcher in the modern world, unlike a Demon in Furrae at present, would be sure to be mowed down, but still.

[Eboreg]

I still maintain that Furraean magic is not as effective as industrial firearms. Think about it, Daniel Ti'Fiona, an experienced and successful adventurer, exclusively used swords and cast no magic during that period. If magic had been effective as guns, he wouldn't have even lasted his first adventure. Also, the robe that he used would sure as hell not stop a bullet. That shows mainly one thing, either his robe effectively stops all magic attacks or magic is either so short range or slow-using or both that he could easily close and be done with it. Either of these makes magic compare unfavorably to industrial firearms since A) any armor proven to stop a bullet is either too heavy for personal use or too unreliable to be practical and B) I triple-f***ing dare you to take out a machine gun nest with a sword.

Also, *snorts a heaping helping of LSD* would that gem on Jyrras's handgun be a method to enchant the bullets it fires? He was worried that it would explode, which Amber states is a reasonable assumption for enchanted bullets, and he has greatly refined enchantment, hmmmm. *passes out in a heap on the floor talking about flying green cats*

[Tapewolf]

I'm curious if you've taken crossbows into account in your study.  A conventional non-magical crossbow won't have the ability to do a fast reload, though you could get something like that with several people in the team, I'd imagine.

[Mao]

I still maintain that Furraean magic is not as effective as industrial firearms. Think about it, Daniel Ti'Fiona, an experienced and successful adventurer, exclusively used swords and cast no magic during that period

True, but he wasn't above using enchanted equipment.  Quickest example would be his robe.  Nor was he opposed to traveling with Magic users. (Most adventurers don't seem to go it alone)

If magic had been effective as guns, he wouldn't have even lasted his first adventure. Also, the robe that he used would sure as hell not stop a bullet.

Unless it was enchanted to stop projectiles.  You seem to think that there's a limit to magic, but no where in the comic is this ever stated.  In fact, the existence of creatures like Dragons and Fae would imply that it's actually quite limitless.

An interesting note is that your argument hinges on the idea that modern guns are so much more vastly powerful that magic would not be able to cope with them in some way.  Given that the potential for magic is endless however (oh hai, fae and things like cubi clan leaders!) I'd say it'd just be a matter of time until someone figured out a way with magic to defend against/destroy the weapons.

Anyway, at this point it's like you've shut out any possible counter argument and decided to either dismiss or evade the ones that could unravel your stance of guns/modern weaponry being superior enough that I feel you're fanboying about it, and excessively so.  So I'm tearooming this.  It's still a relevant conversation, but it's gone quite far off the deep end.

We are all lesser for having let the conversation get this way.  I award you no points.  No redirection topic.  May Mab have mercy on our souls.

[Eboreg]

I'm curious if you've taken crossbows into account in your study.  A conventional non-magical crossbow won't have the ability to do a fast reload, though you could get something like that with several people in the team, I'd imagine.

Honestly, I never really thought about it. The thing is that crossbows are inferior to muskets in all ways in a non-magical world. They also have a very short range compared to industrial firearms and an arrow is not as deadly as you would believe. They plug the wound decreasing the amount of bleed-out and only leave a small puncture wound. An industrial rifle, on the other hand, would have the bullet tumble when it hits flesh and possibly break apart. The sheer speed would also cause tissue to vibrate greatly and rip apart.

In your story when Simeon took potshots at 'Cubi with a crossbow, you have to assume he's a good marksman because he would only kill instantly or semi-instantly if there were a direct hit to the heart, lungs, or brain. Take a shot with a .30-06 and you would get massive internal bleeding that would probably cause even a demon to pass out in a matter of seconds.

And just to make things more clear, this guy committed suicide with a rifle barrel placed to his chin. (WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC) Notice the massive exit wound. Yeah.

[Eboreg]

If magic had been effective as guns, he wouldn't have even lasted his first adventure. Also, the robe that he used would sure as hell not stop a bullet.

Unless it was enchanted to stop projectiles.  You seem to think that there's a limit to magic, but no where in the comic is this ever stated.  In fact, the existence of creatures like Dragons and Fae would imply that it's actually quite limitless.

An interesting note is that your argument hinges on the idea that modern guns are so much more vastly powerful that magic would not be able to cope with them in some way.  Given that the potential for magic is endless however (oh hai, fae and things like cubi clan leaders!) I'd say it'd just be a matter of time until someone figured out a way with magic to defend against/destroy the weapons.

If that were the case then Mab would never get her revolution.

Edit: ah s*** double post.

[Mao]

Where did she say that she wanted a violent gun revolution?

[Eboreg]

It was heavily implied, I quote from #1027: "With no curse, it's only a matter of time before the Creature Council puts pressure on Jyrras and he reacts with his weapons. But without that final one... [he and all his friends will die from Creature Assassinations]"

She continues two comics later: "Jyrras is the one. I just know it. If he can do it, it will be a revolution and will completely change the order of power here!"

I personally do not believe that one single weapon will carry the entire revolution to change the order of power and as such, the final weapon is something of a force multiplier. The fact remains that the lion's share of the work is going to lay on the firearms he has already invented. They may be useless and subject to all of the deficiencies you guys all laid out but the final weapon may very well be something that negates all of those deficiencies. That's the only reason I can think of for the foreshadowing of all-natural materials being that final weapon. Maybe all-natural bullets could break through shields. Maybe they can dispel the magic that makes a creature a creature and possibly by doing so, instantly kill the creature in the process. Maybe all-natural clothes would prove an impenetrable protection against any kind of magic. Maybe the research will streamline enchanting to the point that enchanting bullets is not impractical anymore. Maybe a combination of the above. The fact remains that Jyrras, a 21-year-old hobbyist who should still be in college, did to firearms technology in 5 years what took several thousand Earth engineers with extensive educations a century to do and possibly even two. Not to mention he did this while still being an effective computer engineer and while revolutionizing the field of magic hybridization to get to the point of mass production. There are two explanations, either Jyrras is so blimming smart that it should be considered a superpower or a Mab was somewhat involved.

[Mao]

There's more than one way to have a revolution, and more than one way to fight it (cultural, political, agricultural).  You also assume that the revolution has to do with beings v.s. creatures.  It's a fair assumption, for sure, but I don't feel it's wise to make it.  The comments are vague enough on their own that they could have multiple implications.  In your case, you just cling to the one that appeals to you the most (perfectly understandable).  Something that might help your argument is to do what you just did in that last paragraph (a bit): acknowledge the points others have made.

You're also adding things to the quote that you feel are implied but given how many red herrings and misleading implications we've gotten before, I wouldn't jump to *any* conclusion yet.

Before I decide to stop responding, I do want to say something on a personal note:

Usually when I toss threads down here, it's to be mocked.  I don't mock your posts at all.  This is because I appreciate the thought, passion and time you put into your posts.  I tease a bit, but ultimately you write good posts.  I actually enjoy them.  I hope that me putting threads of yours down here doesn't deter you from making more.  You're a fairly intelligent poster and write coherent and engaging topics.  Even if sometimes it gets a bit off the deep end.

[Eboreg]

Fair enough. I won't make any more posts here either.

[Mao]

Actually, I think you should keep going.  As long as others are interested, of course.  Me not responding does not mean the thread should die.  More just that I don't think we're going to agree any time soon and that I'm not sure I've got the ability or patience to debate this any further than I have.