8/03/2012 [DMFA #1328] - Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice

[Darron Ranston]

Okay, first time poster here. Not gonna be nervous, just gonna say it... What if the Cubi in question helped Merlitz fake his own death? I mean using magic to block him from the stone and other magic might look like him getting zapped out of existence to the third eye of a creature using magic oracle powers to take a look see. Just a thought...

[joshofspam]

I guess everyone has already said the likely suspects.

It seems to me though that most of them either left on a good note or just didn't really care enough to kill him.

The only one that comes to mind that could get motivated and have the time to do it would be Destania. If we judge from previous history, Merlitz had a habit of getting in over his head and just barely getting out of it.

Seeing as I'm guessing he never really meet Dan's and Alexsi's mom, he'd probably respond default to the situation at hand. Considering what she's up to right now, she'd probably be less pleased if they met.

Though another idea of what's going on does come to mind. Just how good are those patches and how well can they imitate the phoenix race?

[Eboreg]

Let it be said that I've read too many "Rowan of Rin" books to take a prophecy at face value. Hell, for all we know, Aary unintentionally drove him to suicide.

[Turnsky]

"The life of Destania has ended."  You demonstrated that she said exactly what I said she said in the post you quoted, and as I just there said, it was ambiguous in just the way the statement in this strip isn't.  She did not say "Destania was killed by Daniel Ti'fona," because she wasn't.  She didn't even say "Destania's life," but "the life of Destania," that is, Dee's life as Destania.  That's the measure of the phoenix oracles' unreliability.  Merlitz is dead, or has been killed and revived somehow.  There's not the same wiggle room.

first off, Settle down, 'Foo.  </MrT>  

you really don't wanna get too uppity with me, it's not a good look for anyone involved.

Second, "The Life of has ended at the hands on Daniel Ti'Fiona" seems pretty straightforward to me. which is precisely how Aary took it then.
Which leads us to the now, where the oracle just offhandedly says "Merlitz was killed by a Cubi at lost lake".
The blunt object brigade went to lost lake, under this premise to smack down the first cubi they could find.
Three Cubi have frequented Lost Lake, Dan, Abel, and of course, Aary. who broke his heart.

now if you want to take the less straightforward route, you could state that "killed" means that when Aary dumped merlitz, that killed him somewhat emotionally, and thus he went out to seek adventuring elsewhere, where he could've gotten killed by something else.
Had Aary not dumped him, he may not have been "killed" in this sense, ergo: Killed by a Cubi at lost lake.
Or when Abel impersonated Merlitz back a few arcs ago, when he changed back, boom, no more "merlitz".
Again, "Killed".

Whoooooo, round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows...  

[joshofspam]

now if you want to take the less straightforward route, you could state that "killed" means that when Aary dumped merlitz, that killed him somewhat emotionally, and thus he went out to seek adventuring elsewhere, where he could've gotten killed by something else.
Had Aary not dumped him, he may not have been "killed" in this sense, ergo: Killed by a Cubi at lost lake.
Or when Abel impersonated Merlitz back a few arcs ago, when he changed back, boom, no more "merlitz".
Again, "Killed".

Whoooooo, round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows...  

Actually the indirect action approach is rather interesting idea to approach it.

It offsets the need for a looking for intention and time necesarry needed to link one of the cubi from the lost lake inn to Merlitz murder.

In fact, what if he bumped into the assassins and they figured out he had close cubi connections or if the assassins might be looking for a certain cubi in particular. Think along those lines, just about any cubi at lost lake inn could be responsible for Merlitz death.

[Turnsky]

now if you want to take the less straightforward route, you could state that "killed" means that when Aary dumped merlitz, that killed him somewhat emotionally, and thus he went out to seek adventuring elsewhere, where he could've gotten killed by something else.
Had Aary not dumped him, he may not have been "killed" in this sense, ergo: Killed by a Cubi at lost lake.
Or when Abel impersonated Merlitz back a few arcs ago, when he changed back, boom, no more "merlitz".
Again, "Killed".

Whoooooo, round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows...  

Actually the indirect action approach is rather interesting idea to approach it.

It offsets the need for a looking for intention and time necesarry needed to link one of the cubi from the lost lake inn to Merlitz murder.

In fact, what if he bumped into the assassins and they figured out he had close cubi connections or if the assassins might be looking for a certain cubi in particular. Think along those lines, just about any cubi at lost lake inn could be responsible for Merlitz death.

indeed. Merlitz could've been killed in a toast related accident, since aary had a thing for toast.. you get the picture. 

[e_voyager]

i wonder where the stone comes into play myself.  it can be blocked by strong magic true but how often do they check such things?

[Gabi]

Heh. I had the feeling it had to be a Phoenix oracle. Same thing happened when Aary went asking about Destania. Odds are Merlitz isn't really dead after all.

[Eboreg]

@Gabi I wouldn't count on it. That would be bad storytelling. Besides, he wasn't really taking part in the story anyway and this would be a good way to bring him back in.

[e_voyager]

he could be dead or undead who knows at this point

[Lying Foo]

now if you want to take the less straightforward route, you could state that "killed" means that when Aary dumped merlitz, that killed him somewhat emotionally, and thus he went out to seek adventuring elsewhere, where he could've gotten killed by something else.
Had Aary not dumped him, he may not have been "killed" in this sense, ergo: Killed by a Cubi at lost lake.
Or when Abel impersonated Merlitz back a few arcs ago, when he changed back, boom, no more "merlitz".
Again, "Killed".

Whoooooo, round and round she goes, where she stops, nobody knows...  

All of these would make Old Ben balk, and he did use the direct word "murdered" for a metaphorical death, a stretch of the truth already utterly incomparable to the riddle from Chapter 14.  Again, it is very possible that Dan, Abel, or Dee (probably not Aary, who's never lived or worked at Lost Lake) somehow unwittingly killed him, but that's still killing him, and he's still dead, and it's been a long time since he interacted with Dan or Abel.  It's possible that Dee faked his death, but even that's stretching it a bit beyond the last time.

I still think it's most likely Dee killed him.  If that's not vague enough for you, remember, they "knew" Alexsi was a succubus, and, between Dan's absence and Dee's doctored papers, are quite likely to waste plenty of time on Abel, Dan, and possibly Aary before they even hear the name "Destania."

[Sofox]

Okay all this crazy theorising (my own included) is doing my head in. Someone once told me that while the answer may be complicated, often it's actually very simple.

So let's answer these questions in the simplest way possible:

Melitz is most likely dead because evidence points that way and any alternative is more convoluted. We've got a fairly direct answer that it was killed by a cubi and undermining that statement leads to a lot of gramatical confusion. We know he was adventuring at the time, and so, the simple answer is that the cubi that killed him was one he was either trying to defeat, stop or ran afoul of in the course of his quest.

As for which Cubi, the simple answer is Destania. She's the only "cubi from the Lost Lake" that we haven't been keeping tabs on and it certainly seems within her personality to commit murder. She's also "at large" so an adventurer running into her is quite possible.

Just to discount Aary, she's technically not "from" Lost Lake, she left Merlitz on good terms and has been seen happy at the Academy.

So yeah: Simple answer is Destania killed Merlitz likely not knowing he was a friend of her son or her cherished student's ex-boyfriend.

[Gabi]

@Gabi I wouldn't count on it. That would be bad storytelling. Besides, he wasn't really taking part in the story anyway and this would be a good way to bring him back in.

Why would that be bad storytelling?

[KiloFoxx]

now here's a thought... SAIA has hards to prevent detection and things, I.E. powerful magic, and i REALLY doubt those Adventurer Stones don't pop on and off, so it could be entirely possible that his visit to SAIA turned it off and it just never poped back on. of course he could have been taken and held much like i suspect Dan's Father is. i'm willing to bet Edward's stone is out too even though he's (apparently) still alive.

There is precedent for this - Fi entering Matilda's dimensional sword broke its link to Fa'Lina.  An interesting question is whether Dan has a stone, and if so, whether he's dead.

that is almost EXACTLY what i based my hypothesis on. especially seeing as Fa'Llina didn't regain her link with Fi once he re-appeared (which i guess has a CHANCE of being because she replaced him but i think it not being automatic is more likely) and so i's logically assume that the stones would function a similar way and have to be re-activiated once they pop off due to the magic-scenario. as Nitemyst stated, Merlitz never reported to the Guild, so he likely never reactivated the stone after the SAIA arc.

regardless of the logic i can pull out of the air to explain him still being alive though, my money's still on him being dead. and it's not just Occam's Razor here (though that does play a part...)

i dunno though... ever since the strip where Mab stated that 2 of her friends will die i've been thinking as to which 2 i'd RATHER see leave so that the others stay... and Merlitz was one of the two. of course, she also stated that she's given 4 of the 5 a boon, with still one left to give. i REALLY wanna know what the boons she gave were, who she has left to give to, and what it'll be.

[Amber Williams]

A thing with pheonix oracles is that while they can sometimes (IE: often) be ambiguous or vague, they never flat out lie.  Part of their whole purpose is they never try to give folks a straight answer because they believe it should be up to the individual to figure things out for themselves.  But as part of their nature they will never give deliberately false information.  Which is why they are often called on for information since while it sometimes means having to decipher their message, it will always be have truth behind it.

It's not uncommon for adventurers to go missing or bodies to not be found, hence why there was a system set up.  The pheonix oracles are usually used once someone is uncertain because they are guaranteed to know the difference between "the person cannot be found" and "the person is dead." and those who interact with oracles enough are fairly capable of deciphering the difference.  It's kind of like those video-game tips that you can visit when you are stumped on when to proceed next.

As for Fi's link with Fa'Lina, the reason there was no regain was because since Fa'Lina thought Fi was dead, she stopped investing power into Fi and also stopped looking for Fi.  The stones do not require re-activation otherwise they'd be the crappiest system set up ever in a world where so many creatures and magical happenstances happen.


I should also mention that what a Fae considered a friend can also be very different from what you and I consider a friend.  Mab can quite certainly be friendly with most folks she meets, but in order for her to truly consider someone a friend she would have offered them a boon.

[BabylonRanger]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility that it was a cubi (possibly Aniz) who was disguised as a Phoenix Oracle.

Somewhere, Amber is chuckling (and probably giggling) at the same time.

But Aniz has been dead for about twenty years.  Quintinga and Edward killed him and Quintinga was killed in that fight.

I highly doubt Merlitz even knew Aniz.

[Lying Foo]

At least twenty-five years, surely, unless the story of Edward, Quintinga, and Destania is far more interesting than we thought.

[Ignuus66]

At least twenty-five years, surely, unless the story of Edward, Quintinga, and Destania is far more interesting than we thought.

Please dont move this thread into the tinfoil hat tearooms again by bringing that topic up again 

[Lying Foo]

I have a feeling this thread is headed there no matter how on-topic we remain.

[Sofox]

I should also mention that what a Fae considered a friend can also be very different from what you and I consider a friend.  Mab can quite certainly be friendly with most folks she meets, but in order for her to truly consider someone a friend she would have offered them a boon.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking about that...

We know that when Jyrras wasted used his boon Mab's antenna went crazy and she acted like she'd received a sudden shock. Another time when something like that happened to Mab was here, just when Merlitz is in a desperate situation and seems to look like he's wishing for something else to happen.

Is this Merlitz using his boon?

[Balance]

Nobody has mentioned the possibility that it was a cubi (possibly Aniz) who was disguised as a Phoenix Oracle.

This is close to my original thought, which is that someone--not necessarily a cubi--was impersonating an oracle. I find the lunch break excuse dubious, as we've seen oracles remaining cryptic and metaphorical under duress before; they didn't even give Pyroduck straight answers when they were raising him.

I'm not discounting the possibility that Merlitz is really and truly dead at the hands of some cubi. However, if I were to pick a "Merlitz isn't dead" theory, it would be that someone--mostly likely the serial cubi-killer, or someone involved with them--used transformation magic to disguise themselves as an oracle to send the BOB (or whichever adventurers showed up) out to kill a cubi relatively close to the previous kills. This could offer a couple of advantages. One, if the killer is systematically eliminating cubi, this is just an underhanded way of subcontracting part of it. Two, the BOB would act as a diversion at least, and a scapegoat at best.

[Nino]

I should also mention that what a Fae considered a friend can also be very different from what you and I consider a friend.  Mab can quite certainly be friendly with most folks she meets, but in order for her to truly consider someone a friend she would have offered them a boon.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking about that...

Is this Merlitz using his boon?

What I got from that post was that Merlitz wasn't deep enough in Mab's 'inner circle' of friends to have been given such. And thus even if Merlitz is dead he wouldn't be counted as one of her friends that will die.

[FairWage22]

And of course, we forget the most important equivalent nature of things...

Namely that 'death' can also mean 'change' in some cultures.  Swap out death/change and certain things become a lot more interesting as far as quotes...

[Lying Foo]

Obviously Jyrras is one of the five... probably Dan... if Amber means to hint that Merlitz wasn't among them, that only leaves Alexsi and Wildy, so either Pip counts, or... um... Lorenda?  That or one of the rats is poised for a comeback... or I'm thinking it's more likely that's reading much too deeply, and it's just hypothetical.

If so, then I'm going to guess yes, saving him from Aary was the boon.  Which is I guess actually a bit creepy when you look at it from her perspective, but that probably doesn't bear too much thought.  So two more - there's a pretty obvious point at which Dan likely got his, but when the fourth might have been, or even whether it was Alexsi's or Wildy's, is anyone's guess.

[lycaonpictus77]

I should also mention that what a Fae considered a friend can also be very different from what you and I consider a friend.  Mab can quite certainly be friendly with most folks she meets, but in order for her to truly consider someone a friend she would have offered them a boon.

Funnily enough, I was just thinking about that...

Is this Merlitz using his boon?

What I got from that post was that Merlitz wasn't deep enough in Mab's 'inner circle' of friends to have been given such. And thus even if Merlitz is dead he wouldn't be counted as one of her friends that will die.

It seems to me that the wording is important when asking for a boon--when Jyrras asked for his bangles to be removed he told Mab it would mean the world to him, and Albanion's use of "magic words" when asking about her reasons for coming to him seems to imply that with boons, it's all in the way one asks.
I was under the impression that Mab's reaction to Merlitz's panic was some sort of "the guy I'm into is about to be unavailable" feeling, rather than a magical compulsion to grant him a boon.

[Nino]

Obviously Jyrras is one of the five... probably Dan... if Amber means to hint that Merlitz wasn't among them, that only leaves Alexsi and Wildy, so either Pip counts, or... um... Lorenda?  That or one of the rats is poised for a comeback... or I'm thinking it's more likely that's reading much too deeply, and it's just hypothetical.

If so, then I'm going to guess yes, saving him from Aary was the boon.  Which is I guess actually a bit creepy when you look at it from her perspective, but that probably doesn't bear too much thought.  So two more - there's a pretty obvious point at which Dan likely got his, but when the fourth might have been, or even whether it was Alexsi's or Wildy's, is anyone's guess.

Well, for one thing, we don't know whether Mab meant Lost Lake when she said "When I first arrived here", or the dimension/world itself. If the latter, than that means others may qualify:

1. Fa'lina, who has said she and Mab were old/new friends.
2. Pip, who she could have met when she arrived in the world. After all, Fae don't tend to have drakes regularly as far as I could tell. And most drakes don't talk... so perhaps this was Mab's boon to him.
3. Pyroduck, who she could have either met at Lost Lake or earlier, through Fa'lina.
4. Lorenda... though I doubt this one too, since she seemed to meet Mab for sure later on and I don't know how much bonding they've really done.

So mostly for sure is 1. Dan, 2. Jyrras, 3. Wildy, 4. Alexsi (though 3 & 4 are somewhat debatable as well). But if Mab just means since her time in Furrae, there could be others who qualify too.

BUT I am almost 100% sure Fa'lina is definitely one of those people, especially since I feel like she'll be one of the two who Mab will lose because of foreshadowing in the comic. Perhaps even the creation of SAIA had to do with Mab's boon.

[Turnsky]

At least twenty-five years, surely, unless the story of Edward, Quintinga, and Destania is far more interesting than we thought.

Please dont move this thread into the tinfoil hat tearooms again by bringing that topic up again 

it's the forum's very own version of Godwin's law..   

[TacticalError]

At least twenty-five years, surely, unless the story of Edward, Quintinga, and Destania is far more interesting than we thought.

Please dont move this thread into the tinfoil hat tearooms again by bringing that topic up again  

it's the forum's very own version of Godwin's law..  

"We're about to get shunted to the Tinfoil Hat Tearooms! Debate over!"

[Sunblink]

I'm torn between shrieking in laughter at the punchline and weeping at the loss of one of the oldest characters. Damn, Merlitz. Assuming that he is dead, that's... one out of two of Mab's friends that were definitively going to die.



Rest well, sweet prince.

[KiloFoxx]

Obviously Jyrras is one of the five... probably Dan... if Amber means to hint that Merlitz wasn't among them, that only leaves Alexsi and Wildy, so either Pip counts, or... um... Lorenda?  That or one of the rats is poised for a comeback... or I'm thinking it's more likely that's reading much too deeply, and it's just hypothetical.

If so, then I'm going to guess yes, saving him from Aary was the boon.  Which is I guess actually a bit creepy when you look at it from her perspective, but that probably doesn't bear too much thought.  So two more - there's a pretty obvious point at which Dan likely got his, but when the fourth might have been, or even whether it was Alexsi's or Wildy's, is anyone's guess.

Well, for one thing, we don't know whether Mab meant Lost Lake when she said "When I first arrived here", or the dimension/world itself. If the latter, than that means others may qualify:

1. Fa'lina, who has said she and Mab were old/new friends.
2. Pip, who she could have met when she arrived in the world. After all, Fae don't tend to have drakes regularly as far as I could tell. And most drakes don't talk... so perhaps this was Mab's boon to him.
3. Pyroduck, who she could have either met at Lost Lake or earlier, through Fa'lina.
4. Lorenda... though I doubt this one too, since she seemed to meet Mab for sure later on and I don't know how much bonding they've really done.

So mostly for sure is 1. Dan, 2. Jyrras, 3. Wildy, 4. Alexsi (though 3 & 4 are somewhat debatable as well). But if Mab just means since her time in Furrae, there could be others who qualify too.

BUT I am almost 100% sure Fa'lina is definitely one of those people, especially since I feel like she'll be one of the two who Mab will lose because of foreshadowing in the comic. Perhaps even the creation of SAIA had to do with Mab's boon.

i don't think Pyroduck and Lorenda count amongst her close friends, but Pip and Fa'Llina make PERFECT sense... i think i had thought of Pip at the time, but just forgot about it until now... but i had never even CONSIDERED Fa'Llina until you mentioned it and it makes PERFECT sense...

on that note, it does make sense from the Mab/Albanion conversation about Jyrras' bangles that the wording DOES matter, so i don't think that antennae-reaction with Merlitz counts XD THOUGH i do think Merlitz counts among her 5 friends. which would be entirely supported by her crush on him. (which we may never know continued after his breakup with Aary since he disappeared right after)

and i found the post describing the "edward, destinia, quintiga, aniz" thing being DMFA's "goodwin's law" to be absolutely hilarious. though i have yet to se the ACTUAL law implememnted in the forums yet