03/16/10 [AS 92] - It's always those adventurers trying to get ahead in life

[Janus Whitefurr]

Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

[127.0.0.2]

Hmm, if she would do as you said then her life would be that much shorter and entirely pointless as she would end close to how Destainia nearly did (and without her fighting skill i presume)
Let us face the reality - although a person might not be stupid, people as a mass are - history shows examples of helping hands being cut off...
And what the missionaries did is (in the parts where it was not accompanied by looting, rape or worse) not wrong - i mean i find it somewhat undesirable that somebody spreads an ideology i disagree with but other than that, it makes perfect sense , especially from the missionaries point of view - they were in their opinion saving the people from hell, and well , unlike in this case , no evidence ever existed against it (for it either but that is a different story)
All in all, the only person who is able to pull a "Carrot" and live is Carrot himself - he could probably give a guest lecture about life's value at SAIA and not get ripped apart.
Others must use more calculated means of achieving their goals

Well, the "reality" is that Mink's mom was killed anyway, so her concealment apparently didn't help much in the matter.
But Destania's clan isn't exactly the one with the most Being-friendly affinity, so I don't think we can compare those two cases so easily. And I didn't mean for Mink's mom to run into the village shouting GOOD MORNING FELLOW VILLAGERS! I AM A CUBY BUT NO WORRIES I AM GOOD AND YOU ALL ARE GONNA BE HAPPYTIZED NOW! either. She could have tried to hide for first, tryng to earn the trust of a few individuals, maybe casually bringing up the point of Cubi in a conversation and so on...
Maybe a good comparision is that of animal researchers. There are a lot of people who managed to live among apes, brants or other wild animals, even though those animals normally avoid humans. And they didn't do that wearing an ape costume.

... hm. But the idea of Carrot at SAIA has something fascinating.

[Attic Rat]

I would say...

Mink is not allowed to leave Saia - because he is insane.

[VAE]

Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

But.. it seems some of who had said this are female.... so the theory should not hold there !?
Besides looking at the clan leaders history strip, he appears male there , featurewise

[Psychedelic Mushroom]

Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent? 

[Les]

Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent? 

How many times have you played D&D and worried about all the widows and orphans your Paladin created as he waded through the goblin ranks?

[Tangent]

Actually, as GM, I'd make my players suffer through just that. If they didn't kill the young, then the young would grow up (quickly for goblinkind) and go after them or other humans in revenge. And if they did kill the young, then relatives of them would go after them for being so evil and vile as to kill children. =^-^=

Ah, happy days. Between forcing players to choose between killing non-human women and children or letting them later attack villages, accidentally bringing about intelligent sentient races that hunt illithids for their brains (because said brains helped them evolve intelligence), and twisting the unexpected ideas my players came up with and utilizing them in the campaigns... it's no wonder why people said I am evil. =^-^=

(Sadly, the gaming group fell apart after a divorce among two of the players. But I was suffering GM burnout by that time anyway, so it gave me an enforced rest.)

[VAE]

Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent? 

Well a Murphy's law states "never attribute to malice what you can accurately explain by stupidity"
Compare with conspiracy folk today - even a disproof of their argument is evidence that someone is trying hard to cover up something sinister.
I can readily imagine a hero rejoicing after lopping off mink's head of how he saved the people from an elaborate evil masterplan of soulsucking through universal healthcare.
I believe Aaryanna explained hero mentality quite well back there

[VAE]

Actually, as GM, I'd make my players suffer through just that. If they didn't kill the young, then the young would grow up (quickly for goblinkind) and go after them or other humans in revenge. And if they did kill the young, then relatives of them would go after them for being so evil and vile as to kill children. =^-^=

Ah, happy days. Between forcing players to choose between killing non-human women and children or letting them later attack villages, accidentally bringing about intelligent sentient races that hunt illithids for their brains (because said brains helped them evolve intelligence), and twisting the unexpected ideas my players came up with and utilizing them in the campaigns... it's no wonder why people said I am evil. =^-^=

Hmm,  as with flies - you kill one and seven come to funeral
Hunting illithids for brains? that sounds rather ... awesome - reminds me of the specimen 47something the borgs brought in from other universe.

[AGE00]

Hm, After thinking a while, don't you think it's rather harsh that something like this happened:

Mink's Mom: I'm going to help heal people! Whee~

Adventurer: It's a cubi! I'm not even going to think about who this is and assume it's a bad demon coming to eat our souls!
---------------------------
Do you think a Adventurer could REALLY jump to something that quick or would they try to put values on a "creature" or doing a little background before hacking apart an innocent? 

How many times have you played D&D and worried about all the widows and orphans your Paladin created as he waded through the goblin ranks?

Arguably, from an adventurers perspective, it's justifiable. The more time an adventurer takes to think this all out, the greater the chance that the 'cubi will cotton on and seize the initiative, and 'cubi are Dangerous with a big D. And, as I said earlier, if someone is dumb enough to wander around wearing a 'cubi mark, they're pretty much committing an equivalent of "suicide by cop".

[VAE]

Hmm, if she would do as you said then her life would be that much shorter and entirely pointless as she would end close to how Destainia nearly did (and without her fighting skill i presume)
Let us face the reality - although a person might not be stupid, people as a mass are - history shows examples of helping hands being cut off...
And what the missionaries did is (in the parts where it was not accompanied by looting, rape or worse) not wrong - i mean i find it somewhat undesirable that somebody spreads an ideology i disagree with but other than that, it makes perfect sense , especially from the missionaries point of view - they were in their opinion saving the people from hell, and well , unlike in this case , no evidence ever existed against it (for it either but that is a different story)
All in all, the only person who is able to pull a "Carrot" and live is Carrot himself - he could probably give a guest lecture about life's value at SAIA and not get ripped apart.
Others must use more calculated means of achieving their goals

Well, the "reality" is that Mink's mom was killed anyway, so her concealment apparently didn't help much in the matter.
But Destania's clan isn't exactly the one with the most Being-friendly affinity, so I don't think we can compare those two cases so easily. And I didn't mean for Mink's mom to run into the village shouting GOOD MORNING FELLOW VILLAGERS! I AM A CUBY BUT NO WORRIES I AM GOOD AND YOU ALL ARE GONNA BE HAPPYTIZED NOW! either. She could have tried to hide for first, tryng to earn the trust of a few individuals, maybe casually bringing up the point of Cubi in a conversation and so on...
Maybe a good comparision is that of animal researchers. There are a lot of people who managed to live among apes, brants or other wild animals, even though those animals normally avoid humans. And they didn't do that wearing an ape costume.

... hm. But the idea of Carrot at SAIA has something fascinating.

Well , the reality followed from her disguise having a fatal flaw. A flawed disguise failing does not make disguises unworthy of attention, just as the fact that a dull knife might not work for cutting a hard piece of meat does not mean that teeth are better.
The researchers - there are not many to be able to pull it off and they definitely did not have the opportunity of morphing their appearance to a perfect ape

[Les]

Well a Murphy's law states "never attribute to malice what you can accurately explain by stupidity"

I believe you're refering to Hanlon's Razor.

I believe Aaryanna explained hero mentality quite well back there

Ironically, seeing as how she IS the (stereo)typical soul-sucking "sees beings as mere cattle" `Cubi. 

[Psychedelic Mushroom]

Arguably, from an adventurers perspective, it's justifiable. The more time an adventurer takes to think this all out, the greater the chance that the 'cubi will cotton on and seize the initiative

I guess I'm just confused because I'm a logical thinker. I wouldn't want to hurt someone unless I had a SMART and THOUGHTOUT reason for it. I mean, Yes if you wait too long to get a reason it's too late.. But, it's like "Oh no a creature can kill us if we don't kill it first." I just don't see the sense in that. 

[AmigaDragon]

"She once leaped across a desk and pummelled my principle. We had to move after that."

I thought people's principles were compromised by themselves, not pummeled by their mothers.

[Jasonrevall]

Mink's joy and enthusiasm is incredible. Almost reminds me of the flash (Wally West).

Poor Mink.  Not only he does not seek revenge, but also is eager to follow the same path.  And he will likely end the same way because he does not realise how stupid it is to do this... helping those who will jump on his neck if they learn who he is. We say in my country that the wise man learns on others' mistakes and the dull man on his own ... well ... in this case, one gets no chance to learn the second way.

A true hero will help the needy regardless if they want it or not. A hero is not afraid to give his life. A hero does it because he is good, and because he knows it's right. If he has to die by their hands or by the ones trying to end theirs, it is still a sacrifice to give your life for those who will benefit most from it.
As one of my people once said "A very great vision is needed and the man who has it must follow it as the eagle seeks the deepest blue of the sky." Mink has a need to help beings. If that is what he desires, how can he deny who he is?

I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

Running out and jumping off of a cliff is one thing. Giving your life to help others in a dangerous situation is called courage. We're all going to die someday. It's just a manner of when and how like I've said before. Having a long life means being able to do more numerous things. But sometimes one great act of self sacrifice is worth more than 1,000 years of self serving. You also seem to be assuming those who give of themselves don't think things through. Yes, many heroes have a back up plan if things fail, after all we are programed for self preservation.  But we can't shy away from the greatest we can achieve simply because of a high probability of death. One great sacrifice can also inspire greatness in others. When Patrick Henry O'Rorke gave his life rallying his men to fight off the enemy approaching Little Round Top, I'm most certain he helped inspire his men to push the enemy away. The battle may have been lost if he said "We're gonna die if we stay here, let them have the hill!" If he had made self sacrifice the last thing to consider, he would have exhausted all other options, until it was too late to make a difference.

[Mischa]

I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

I don't think anything Mink's mom did could be considered self-sacrifice or getting killed like a lemming.

If a natural disaster occurs, and people are trapped, but an individual is able to find a way to rescue them, but loses their own life in the process... then are they being heroic?  Or foolish?

Admittedly, the counterargument is most likely "But there must have been another way that would have been safer!", but I'd conjecture that there isn't always "another way".

Similarly, then, if a doctor provides decades of service to his or her community, providing medical aid and saving lives, only to lose their own in the end -- were they heroic or foolish?

Mink's mother provided medical assistance to multiple communities, and none of them apparently objected to having a hospital, medical assistance, or the training that resulted.  In the end, yes, she lost her life -- but even so, I suspect she would have felt that the results were worth the risk she undertook...

[Aurawyn]

After this page, I find myself likeing Mink alot more, I hope he makes an appearance in the main arc.. and is alive

[psilorder]

Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

They want to crush on a girl instead of being Gay For Mink (because they're already Gay For Abel) or something is my guess.

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

btw, anyone else who almost can't help but add another letter to his name and chuckle?

[AGE00]

Arguably, from an adventurers perspective, it's justifiable. The more time an adventurer takes to think this all out, the greater the chance that the 'cubi will cotton on and seize the initiative

I guess I'm just confused because I'm a logical thinker. I wouldn't want to hurt someone unless I had a SMART and THOUGHTOUT reason for it. I mean, Yes if you wait too long to get a reason it's too late.. But, it's like "Oh no a creature can kill us if we don't kill it first." I just don't see the sense in that. 

So, the fact that a 'cubi is just an incredibly dangerous monster, held by common knowledge to be treacherous, evil and manipulative, doesn't strike you as a good enough reason? Keep in mind these guys have nothing to go on but personal experience and what they've been told, both of which point most strongly to the conclusion of "kill it with fire". Also remember that adventurers came about as a response to predation by creatures. If the majority of creatures were nice, there wouldn't be any adventurers.

[Scow2]

I guess I'm just confused because I'm a logical thinker. I wouldn't want to hurt someone unless I had a SMART and THOUGHTOUT reason for it. I mean, Yes if you wait too long to get a reason it's too late.. But, it's like "Oh no a creature can kill us if we don't kill it first." I just don't see the sense in that.  

No, your thinking like that not "because your a logical thinker", but because you have more information on 'cubi than the In-universe adventurers, and you aren't at risk of being torn to pieces for making a wrong judgement call. The strip makes several indications that trusting a 'cubi is a dangerous proposition, illustrated beautifully by Destania's lesson, when it works properly.

Case in point: Merlitz, after being treated "Nicely" by 'cubi, thinks that Fa'lina and other 'cubi aren't inherently bad, yet Fa'lina's following comments indicate that had he not been dating Aaryanna, Fa'lina would have had no qualms ruthlessly killing him. And again, a common trick of malevolent 'cubi is to think they are friendly, then evicerate unsuspecting prey.

So... honestly, the death of Mink's mom was tragic, but remember... Adventurers are usually those who have already been wronged by creatures in the past (or know someone who has), like Furrae's bunny Inigo Montoya. So, for them, it's not as much they aren't willing to "give creatures a chance" as much as they aren't willing to risk giving creatures a second chance after being traumatized once by non-beings.

Also keep in mind, even 'cubi admit their modus operandi is deceit... it's how they compete with Demons and Angels. So, the adventurers could be seen as fully justified in their (tragic) course of action. Furrae is a world where the various races will never get along because of the specializations, power discrepancies, and pride between them. Beings' only strengths are their sentience, numbers, and ability to work spectacularly well together to overcome adversity. And thanks to JyCorp, soon they will have really, really sweet weapons.

[Tapewolf]

So, the fact that a 'cubi is just an incredibly dangerous monster, held by common knowledge to be treacherous, evil and manipulative, doesn't strike you as a good enough reason? Keep in mind these guys have nothing to go on but personal experience and what they've been told, both of which point most strongly to the conclusion of "kill it with fire".

There's some truth in this.  As Dan says, there are lots of evil creatures out there and the main defence a Being has against them is by not giving them a chance to attack.
However, you could also say the same thing about bandits, and that doesn't entitle you to murder strangers in the forest just in case they're dangerous.

[AGE00]

However, you could also say the same thing about bandits, and that doesn't entitle you to murder strangers in the forest just in case they're dangerous.

Yeah, but what about strangers wearing mask who are lurking in the bushes holding swords? I mean, they might be there for perfectly innocent reasons, but if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, chances are we have a member of the genus anatidae on our hands. Of course, if they then turned out to be frat boys conducting a hazing, you would feel like a bit of a goose.

[Caswin]

How many times have you played D&D and worried about all the widows and orphans your Paladin created as he waded through the goblin ranks?

Monk, actually.  Our group never fought any goblins, but in every case where they did fight, it was against things or people that were already trying to kill them. (Ask about kobolds sometime.  Go ahead, ask.)

[VAE]

Running out and jumping off of a cliff is one thing. Giving your life to help others in a dangerous situation is called courage. We're all going to die someday. It's just a manner of when and how like I've said before. Having a long life means being able to do more numerous things. But sometimes one great act of self sacrifice is worth more than 1,000 years of self serving. You also seem to be assuming those who give of themselves don't think things through. Yes, many heroes have a back up plan if things fail, after all we are programed for self preservation.  But we can't shy away from the greatest we can achieve simply because of a high probability of death. One great sacrifice can also inspire greatness in others. When Patrick Henry O'Rorke gave his life rallying his men to fight off the enemy approaching Little Round Top, I'm most certain he helped inspire his men to push the enemy away. The battle may have been lost if he said "We're gonna die if we stay here, let them have the hill!" If he had made self sacrifice the last thing to consider, he would have exhausted all other options, until it was too late to make a difference.

Hmm. we probably are, but for Cubi it is not that sure - after all, tri-wings are immortal (for me, immortal means does not die by itself , as compared to invulnerable - impossible to be killed)
The thing you state is quite possibly a good example of heroism (i am not very familiar with the battle - it seems to be one of the american wars, but i know some similar examples from slovak national uprising) but it changes nothing to what i say.
After all, look at Stalingrad battle - i am sure that many of the common german soldiers there put forwards impressive displays of determination and courage, comparable with the soviet soldiers even but it changes nothing on the fact that the decision to hold the city was utterly stupid and pointless feat, which made german war situation much worse.
The difference is that the guy who you described pretty much filled the description before  - although after his death, he achieved a honorable cause - military victory.

[AGE00]

The difference is that the guy who you described pretty much filled the description before  - although after his death, he achieved a honorable cause - military victory.

Yeah, but you're looking at that with hindsight. It's not like people know in advance how this stuff's going to work out. There's always an element of risk. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", as the saying goes, and the reward can often be proportionate to the risk involved in attaining it.

[VAE]

I am not sure. A hero is most of all one who achieves a honourable goal. Rising up and getting yourself killed like a lemming is not really the kind of heroism to look for - Selfsacrifice can be honourable ,but should be the last thing one considers , not the first.
Another quote i know said something like "Instead of hitting the wall with your head, find the door with the eyes" - a great vision in order to be achieved need someone to follow it but the way to achieve anything with highest probability is to find the simplest way of doing so

I don't think anything Mink's mom did could be considered self-sacrifice or getting killed like a lemming.

If a natural disaster occurs, and people are trapped, but an individual is able to find a way to rescue them, but loses their own life in the process... then are they being heroic?  Or foolish?

Admittedly, the counterargument is most likely "But there must have been another way that would have been safer!", but I'd conjecture that there isn't always "another way".

Similarly, then, if a doctor provides decades of service to his or her community, providing medical aid and saving lives, only to lose their own in the end -- were they heroic or foolish?

Mink's mother provided medical assistance to multiple communities, and none of them apparently objected to having a hospital, medical assistance, or the training that resulted.  In the end, yes, she lost her life -- but even so, I suspect she would have felt that the results were worth the risk she undertook...

The lemming applied more to mink than his mother, but anyways..
There is something of a difference. If she was killed (by enemy or by natural means) while saving other cubi, or her clan leader or whatever else, that would be heroic, yes.
But, when we look at what has happened - she set up several hospitals in communities well, hostile to her kind... good for the beings , indifferent for cubi.
Then, she made one, got killed in the process, giving the locals yet another story of cubi vileness, and i imagine if anyone else will try to set up a hospital , he will be double screened for being a cubi , because although not necessarily smart, beings learn too.
Overall result?  bad for her, bad for cubi indifferent to beings ...
Besides, in any case she was helping a probable enemy (this brings reference to the old joke how a guy in military school around here came in to class with jeans on. "Soldier, why are you wearing the clothing of a probable enemy?" "Because it is a probable war trophy!")

[VAE]

The difference is that the guy who you described pretty much filled the description before  - although after his death, he achieved a honorable cause - military victory.

Yeah, but you're looking at that with hindsight. It's not like people know in advance how this stuff's going to work out. There's always an element of risk. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained", as the saying goes, and the reward can often be proportionate to the risk involved in attaining it.

It is true, however to my defense there are two things - One is that it might have been an important battle (again i do not know) in which case there is the large element of "will life be any good if the enemy executes us when giving up, or they win and install their version of reign of terror?" (this was a large element in the heroic acts of soviet soldiers, specially when the stupid Commisar directive of hitlerites became known - executing all political commisars ,and if i remember right, party members, in an unit captured ....  (there were complaints because of this from german officers upwards because of this reason even)
Secondly the victory truly makes the act more heroic - there are tens thousands who died holding some position important or not - where it failed they are still mentioned, but it comes nowhere comparable to those who succeed.

[AmigaDragon]

Why are so many insisting Mink is female, coming up with elaborate justifications for him lacking certain 'curves'? (Matilda if anything has even more of an excuse to not have 'Non-Mammal Mammaries', and yet.. she does.)  Is the concept of an effeminate male really that difficult to parse?

Myself i just find myself wondering since no gender has been given as far as i know, but i am in the "Mink is a guy"-camp. no, an effeminate guy isnt hard to imagine (especially after the guy on Tokio Hotel), but on the other hand, how hard is it to imagine a masculine girl?

My youngest brother had a roommate that came across as a little effeminate. He now has a wife and kids.
Masculine girl? You mean like Kristen Johnston's "Sally" in 3rd Rock From The Sun?

, anyone else who almost can't help but add another letter to his name and chuckle?

Smink? Minkl? Minka? Mink'd? ...I don't see it.

[Tapewolf]

It is true, however to my defense there are two things ...

Just for future reference, as a rule you're not really supposed to do two consecutive posts like that.  If you're replying to two different people, the idea is to have both replies in the same post.  You can use the 'insert quote' link to make this easier 

[AGE00]

It is true, however to my defense there are two things - One is that it might have been an important battle (again i do not know) in which case there is the large element of "will life be any good if the enemy executes us when giving up, or they win and install their version of reign of terror?" (this was a large element in the heroic acts of soviet soldiers, specially when the stupid Commisar directive of hitlerites became known - executing all political commisars ,and if i remember right, party members, in an unit captured ....  (there were complaints because of this from german officers upwards because of this reason even)
Secondly the victory truly makes the act more heroic - there are tens thousands who died holding some position important or not - where it failed they are still mentioned, but it comes nowhere comparable to those who succeed.

I really think you should drop Stalingrad as an example. That battle was pretty much decided by who could afford to sustain their stupidity for the longest. It was the Special Olympics of World War 2.

In any event, heroism is a lot like faith. It's intensely personal. Two people can look at the actions of a third person and see completely different things. Personally, I've never seen or even heard of someone I'd consider a legitimate hero.

Masculine girl? You mean like Kristen Johnston's "Sally" in 3rd Rock From The Sun?

No, she was definitely all woman.