Hate Crimes and Free speech

[Techcubi]

Ok, I may get flogged by some people on here for talking about this, but....I was reading this Magazine called 'Endtime' In church today, and, it had to do with 'Hate crimes', and, religious freedom and whatever. Anyway, basically.....When it comes to religious freedoms, they're rather limited when it comes to opposing homosexual behavior, because, apparently, it's a 'hate crime'.

[Reese Tora]

Ok, I may get flogged by some people on here for talking about this, but....I was reading this Magazine called 'Endtime' In church today, and, it had to do with 'Hate crimes', and, religious freedom and whatever. Anyway, basically.....When it comes to religious freedoms, they're rather limited when it comes to opposing homosexual behavior, because, apparently, it's a 'hate crime'.

so... I just want to get this straight...

Is what you're saying that the magazine was complaining it could not protest homosexual behavior because their opposing it was a hate crime?

I will be honest and say there are a number of reasons I don't think very highly of the magazine you read, which I know of only through your above post, but say nothing beyond that, as I don't want to offend anyone.

[Mao]

Yeah, I'm going to take a pass on this one for similar reasons Reese.  This just reeks of flamebait.

[Rakala]

My brief opinion: Hate crimes are a terrible idea. You shouldn't be punished any more based on your intentions because that comes down to regulating thought. This is the first step in a slippery slope of oppression which we have been fortunate enough to avoid thus far.

Also: hate crime only means you can't go out and beat them up. Seriously what is with the far right thinking it means you can't do anything against them? I believe you can dislike whoever you like and openly say it as long as you don't commit violence against them.

[Alondro]

For instance, I hate the French...

The annoy me with their Frenchness.   

[Baal Hadad]

My brief opinion: Hate crimes are a terrible idea. You shouldn't be punished any more based on your intentions because that comes down to regulating thought. This is the first step in a slippery slope of oppression which we have been fortunate enough to avoid thus far.

Also: hate crime only means you can't go out and beat them up. Seriously what is with the far right thinking it means you can't do anything against them? I believe you can dislike whoever you like and openly say it as long as you don't commit violence against them.

I agree--calling that a "hate crime" is stretching the definition of the word beyond recognition.  Discrimination it certainly is, but that in and of itself is not a hate crime.  If it's not a crime, it's not a hate crime, and freedom of speech is not a crime (even if that speech is unpopular).

It's disturbing, though, that they seem to desire the freedom TO discriminate in that way.... 

But yeah, it's ridiculous the way "hate crimes" are defined--I once heard of a Jewish radio pundit who was killed by an anti-Semitic group who was then charged with "violating his civil rights."  HUH?!?!?  They didn't "violate his civil rights," they KILLED him!   

[Tezkat]

Maybe a magazine dedicated to convincing people that the end of the world is upon us is not the best source of unbiased information on this subject?

It's not a crime to express negative views on homosexuality. It may not be terribly enlightened, but it's protected free speech unless you're expressing them in a way that would otherwise be criminal. Free speech doesn't permit you to commit assault, harassment, bullying, verbal abuse, defacing property, etc.

If these guys think that hate crime laws prevent them from expressing themselves, then they're pretty fucked up. That's tantamount to claiming that it should be okay to commit crimes against people because they're gay.

[Rakala]

For instance, I hate the French...

The annoy me with their Frenchness.   

No truer statement has ever been said.

[Sunblink]

adwaidwiadwladladaxhjafffffffffffff

*turns on slideshow projector*

FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, HATE CRIMES, AND YOU.

The First Amendment of the U.S Constitution reads as so: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It guarantees freedom of press, freedom of expression, and freedom of religion. However, this is irrelevant if you hurt/murder someone or deprive them of their rights in some way.

Now here's the 1969 Federal Civil Rights Law, which forbids hate crimes:
The 1969 Federal Civil Rights Law, 18 U.S.C. § 245(b)(2), permits federal prosecution of anyone who "willingly injures, intimidates or interferes with another person, or attempts to do so, by force because of the other person's race, color, religion or national origin" [1] because of the victim's attempt to engage in one of six types of federally protected activities, such as attending school, patronizing a public place/facility, applying for employment, acting as a juror in a state court or voting.

Persons violating the 1969 Federal Hate Crimes Law face a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both. If bodily injury results or if such acts of intimidation involve the use of firearms, explosives or fire, individuals can receive prison terms of up to 10 years, while crimes involving kidnapping, sexual assault, or murder can be punishable by life in prison or the death penalty.[1] U.S. Courts provide for criminal sanctions, but only victims of gender-motivated hate crimes can "seek compensatory and punitive damages as well as injunctive and declaratory relief".
This was taken from Wikipedia, so just in case here is the code in its entirety. It's a big read.

Now, the Matthew Shepard Act, to my understanding, basically meant that gay (and transgendered people) could be protected under hate crime laws too. Here's Wiki's take:
On October 28, 2009 President Obama signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act (attached to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010), which expanded existing United States federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability, and which dropped the prerequisite that the victim be engaging in a federally protected activity.

However, guess what. This does not apply to hurting a gay or transgendered person's feelings through something mean that you say. Because people cannot legally punish you for your opinion alone, and they cannot stop you from expressing or having that opinion. (See: Westboro Baptist Church - while there have been acts in Congress proposing they increase the distance between the WBC and the funerals they picket to allow the family some semblance of privacy, they cannot keep them from picketing, and even then the propositions have met some serious debate. This is even though not many people are fond of those guys. The Westboro Baptist Church is the worst of the worst. Even people who disapprove of homosexuality for personal or religious reasons think that they're terrible. Jerry Falwell thought they were "first-class nuts." I bet some people even secretly wish that the WBC could be silenced. But they should not and cannot be. If THOSE guys aren't in danger of getting arrested for saying stupid things, why would more moderate churches be?)

So hate crime laws are actually built in accordance with the First Amendment. Even if you happen to think gay people are deviants or think transgendered people should just stick to the genitals that God gave them, you still have your freedom of religion, press, speech, etc, and it will always be there no matter how reprehensible your personal opinions are. However, people can and will call you out on saying stupid shit. If you obey the law, that's basically the only thing you have to worry about. So basically what I'm trying to say is:  

That magazine was full of shit.




Oh yeah, Techcubi, if you don't happen to live in the U.S, then I give you permission to use my head as a pinata for going on this really nutty tangent.

P.S: I hate the French. They always backstab me when I'm trying to headshot someone.

[Rakala]

(See: Westboro Baptist Church - while there have been acts in Congress proposing they increase the distance between the WBC and the funerals they picket to allow the family some semblance of privacy, they cannot keep them from picketing, and even then the propositions have met some serious debate. This is even though not many people are fond of those guys. The Westboro Baptist Church is the worst of the worst. Even people who disapprove of homosexuality for personal or religious reasons think that they're terrible. Jerry Falwell thought they were "first-class nuts." I bet some people even secretly wish that the WBC could be silenced. But they should not and cannot be. If THOSE guys aren't in danger of getting arrested for saying stupid things, why would more moderate churches be?)

Heh, you know alot of the people who you talk to in the Westboro Baptist Church say there's more to their religion than protesting homosexuality. However this is undermined when their website is godhatesfags.com. Really? Completely ridiculous. Is like when Scientologists try to convince you that their religion isn't about aliens.

[Tezkat]

Among other things, the Matthew Shephard Act also removed the provision restricting hate crimes to victims engaged in a specific set of federally protected activities. Thus, since the bill passed a few months ago, the scope of hate crime laws in America has broadened considerably. In practice, however, they're still essentially a tool for increasing the prison sentences of offenders less likely to have learned their lessons.


I might add, by the way, that hate speech laws are considerably broader in other countries than they are in the USA.

Up in Canada, for instance, criminal hate speech covers anything you say or write in public that "incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace" unless the statements were made in good faith and/or can be proven true. Furthermore, there's a separate body tasked with enforcing the anti-discrimination provisions of the Canadian Human Rights Act. These statutes have been implemented quite broadly. Recently, for example, there have been several cases of them being used to shut down antisemitic web sites, something that would probably be unheard of south of the border.

[Sunblink]

Among other things, the Matthew Shephard Act also removed the provision restricting hate crimes to victims engaged in a specific set of federally protected activities.

Right; I had that in the last part of at least one of those sentences in the rant. I'm not writing something that's as long as that again until at least three months.

I might add, by the way, that hate speech laws are considerably broader in other countries than they are in the USA.

Unfortunately I realized this halfway through writing the message, so I had to put that little thing about the pinata at the end of my rant. Goddammit.

If Techcubi does take offense because of me being a Butthead, he does have free license to use me as a party favor.

Up in Canada, for instance, criminal hate speech covers anything you say or write in public that "incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace" unless the statements were made in good faith and/or can be proven true. Furthermore, there's a separate body tasked with enforcing the anti-discrimination provisions of the Canadian Human Rights Act. These statutes have been implemented quite broadly. Recently, for example, there have been several cases of them being used to shut down antisemitic web sites, something that would probably be unheard of south of the border.

I didn't know that. I kind of wish I did more research now

[Vidar]

For instance, I hate the French...

The annoy me with their Frenchness.   

YOU EVIL FRANCE-HATING BIGOT!!!!!!11111112222 

The cheese-eating surrender-monkeys are at least good for something: they give us a place to dump all our spoiled cheese, and give everyone someone to feel superior to. 


That said, I also think that the original post is flamebait. I don't think it's going to lead to a big thing over here, because this forum is filled with some of the nicest people on the internet. Thsi place is one of the few where controversial subject can be discussed politely and without references to Hitler or speculation about ones heritage.

[thegayhare]

But yeah, it's ridiculous the way "hate crimes" are defined--I once heard of a Jewish radio pundit who was killed by an anti-Semitic group who was then charged with "violating his civil rights."  HUH?!?!?  They didn't "violate his civil rights," they KILLED him!  

Mostley cases like that one... and I remembver seeing a program on the history of hate in america which detailed this particular case... at least I think it was this one

the reason that the charges levered were for violating his civil rights was specificly to elevate the charge to a federal crime because in those cases, just as in the cases involving the murder of civil rights workers in the south.  the murders would get let off because of local prejudices.   so they had to use the civil rights violation to elevate the charge to a federal offense so that it could be charged in a federal court away from the local predices.  You have to remember at the time these cases were going on judges, and police members were openly and proudly members of the kkk in these states

That said, I also think that the original post is flamebait.

I agree, but I hope it don't come to that

[Techcubi]

Am I seriously being called a flamebaiter?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

If Techcubi does take offense because of me being a Butthead, he does have free license to use me as a party favor.

Is that open to anyone else? *hopeful look*

Am I seriously being called a flamebaiter?

Not yet. You're being suspected of possibly being one. Depending on how you react to the various commenters will cement opinion, one way or the other.

Good luck with that. ;-]

[Techcubi]

...Can you just do me a favor, and put this thread in the stupid posts board?

[Tapewolf]

...Can you just do me a favor, and put this thread in the stupid posts board?

My command is your wish.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Is it really?

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

It did seem more like a strong exhortation to me.