[Art] Kipiru Starrider's Art- Space Adventurer Tania(Updated 11/08/09)

[Kipiru]

Sorry Llearch, I didn't think it was that wrong, my apologies.

And if you can merge them then go ahead, I won't mind.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

It's not entirely wrong, it's just not how everyone else is doing it. And it clutters up the forum...

[Tapewolf]

Pretty good likeness, though perhaps a little over-muscled.  That may just be that Amber (claims she) draws them under-muscled though.

In terms of critique, a couple of other things may be worth pointing out.  Firstly, Abel's kilt and his chest/belly fur are the same colour and the same lustre which makes it look a little confusing.  If you're in the mood to change it, a quick fix might be to remove all or part of the sheen from his fur and keep the kilt shiny.
Also, I think Abel's ears are the wrong shape.  It looks like they should start out wide and narrow to a point with the round blob thing on the end, yours are almost the reverse of that.

Nonetheless, it's an impressive picture.

[Kipiru]

Thanks for the merge Llearch, I promise no more side topics.

And thanks for the reply Tapewolf, I acknowledge that the characters may be a bit off from what Amber draws and I'll try to do better next time, but I'm not backing down on Dan being more muscular than seen in the original comic. It's just the way I see him as an adventurer, he should be a tough fellow to be able to wield large swords.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Wielding large swords is more in the wrists and arms than in the rest of the body. Particularly, IME, in the lower arms, rather than the upper arms.

... Actually, ask Cogidubnus which muscles get used most; I'm guessing based on a spear-based martial art, whereas he actually does the pointy stuff, so will be able to give you a more accurate suggestion.


Erm. That's not a criticism, btw; from what Amber has suggested, I think the reason Dan doesn't look beefy is that when she started, she couldn't draw beefy. So a more muscled version is probably closer to what she'd _like_ him to look like... if that makes sense.

... although, by that token, I'm inclined to suggest that Abel is then overly muscled... Can't win, heh? ;-]

[Kipiru]

... although, by that token, I'm inclined to suggest that Abel is then overly muscled... Can't win, heh? ;-]

Apparently not, next time I'll just draw them nearly undead or skeletons 

[Zedd]

Boys fight alot as they say, But nice job on the coloring...Also thanks for making Cassandra

[Kipiru]

It was my pleasure.

[Amber Williams]

The image of Dan and Abel fighting looks far too busy in terms of composition. And it feels like you added Fa'Lina in there just because you wanted to fill space and considering the colours of all the characters, it makes her seem out of place and like she shouldn't be in the image at all.  Fa'Lina is a tricky character to pull of. Her size and her colours make her really difficult to put in the background as her very nature is one that requires the center of attention.  And as such, the image just looks really crowded.

In multi-character shots, sometimes less is more and you need to find a way to allow ones eyes travel from one part of the image to the rest smoothly so a person can take in the image as a whole. Right now my eyes keep bouncing from one point to another and cannot find a proper focus so it means I end up missing a lot of details and focusing on the wrong ones.

When doing a group-shot, especially a possible fight scene, unless one is using perspective and foreshadowing, a good bit of advice is to actually draw the characters separate and by themselves and then add them together (at least if you are doing this digitally) which allows one to space things out and make sure they dont look smushed together.

That and the way Abel's wings coming out of his back seems really off.  They look like you could snap them off at the base like a twig or that they should just be doing that due to the weight of the wings themselves.

I agree that the muscles on the guys is not exactly how I would normally portray them. Dan and Abel are both fighters that rely on being fast rather than hitting hard.   But I figure that is artistic interpretation and you are free to interpret however you wish.

The weapons look interesting, and you have a good eye for detail. I just think it would have better presented if it didn't feel so compact. 

Apologies if this sounds a bit harsh and somewhat rude.  Honestly, this is a really bad time for me to be commenting and I normally would wait till my actual weekend in order to give a better thought out commentary.  But since you seemed adament about getting a response right away while I am in the middle of trying to do a dozen things at once, I am rushing this response to get it done.

I do appreciate the time and effort you put in to do a gift art, and I am definately not trying to sound like I am slamming you.  I am just incredibly terrible at critiques and evne less so when I don't have the time to sit down and word things better.

[Kipiru]

Wow Amber, thanks!

  Sorry to have bothered you at a time like this, but your reply was everything I hoped for, so thanks again. Yes, I do realise the picture looks a bit crowded, but that is a bit on purpose. I just like such pictures(like your group pic of the Egyptian girls), though i will take your advise about drawing separate characters. Fa'lina is awfully hard to draw in color, I admit, so hats off to you for that. And I've taken my fare share on critiques for Abel and all of them deserved. I'll have to try harder next time.

[Kipiru]

Here are two new projects of mine, still in ink stage, but i Thought they'll be fun to compare later on with the finished versions.

valkyrie

Werewolf knight 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

For the first one, a couple of points. One, the chest of the horse is fairly large; this is possibly ok, depending on how big the horse really is - you don't get a large chest unless the rest of the horse is to scale as well..

Secondly, the rider's left knee is right up near the front of the horse's shoulder. This means the rider is sitting right on the very front of the saddle; something that isn't borne out by the rest of the picture.


The second image, the first thing that appears to me is the left hand is twisted back upon itself a little much; rather than being a clawing grip, it looks like arthritis... Other than that, it's very detailed, and very impressive.

Do you see what I mean?

[Kipiru]

Do you see what I mean?

     Perfectly, horses are a great weakpoint of mine, but I keep trying. As for the arm, I don't really think it's that bent, but my anatomy is still way off so it could be.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Just as a suggestion, you might try looking for some pictures of people riding horses - things like showjumping or something - and see where they sit on the horse.

Reason for "pictures" and not "picture" is that they'll give you a sense of where _different people_ fit on _different horses_ - which will give you some idea of the variety, but also where the variety stops.

Perhaps youtube?

[Kipiru]

Will do Chief!

[Tapewolf]

I can't resolve the first image, but with the second one looks nice.
Aside from the hand, which llearch has already mentioned, I see what I think may be a few proportional problems with the head.  Firstly, the head itself looks a little small, though that may be exaggerated by the armour.  The muzzle may be a touch short, depending on what kind of an animal he is.  If he's a fox or wolf, I think the ears should ideally be larger.
Apart from that, it's good work.

[Kipiru]

I can't resolve the first image.

     Fixed it.

[Tapewolf]

     Fixed it.

Thanks.  The horse looks a little small and dumpy, but I think llearch has a better handle on it than I have.  Again, with the wolf-like creature, the ears are very small.  Wolves have quite substantial ears, at least twice the size of the ones you've drawn.  Other than that, it looks very good.  Are these commissions or something?

[Kipiru]

I'll keep in mind about the wolf and horse, guess i have to better my animals. These are not exactly commisions, but more like gift art, people ask me to draw them some character and I do it at no charge.

[WhiteFox]

Wielding large swords is more in the wrists and arms than in the rest of the body. Particularly, IME, in the lower arms, rather than the upper arms.

Nope. A lot of power comes from the hips and when you throw a shot, and it goes all the way from the triceps to the wrist.

But I digress.

The horse is actually pretty good, it's just the chest is actually too *short*. A horses ribcage almost comes down to it's elbow. Also, she should be sitting a lot farther back on it, and after the knees the legs lay straight down.

A note on the wolves in both pics... their muzzles look kinda short.

Your linework is gray. This really hurts the colored pics posted earlier on, and hurts readability in the B/W ones.

Man, I had a really good crit. all ready for the Dan and Abel image, but then I saw how long ago it was posted and Amber had commented.

[Kipiru]

Man, I had a really good crit. all ready for the Dan and Abel image, but then I saw how long ago it was posted and Amber had commented.

   Soo, what's stoping you? 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Wielding large swords is more in the wrists and arms than in the rest of the body. Particularly, IME, in the lower arms, rather than the upper arms.

Nope. A lot of power comes from the hips and when you throw a shot, and it goes all the way from the triceps to the wrist.

But I digress.

I believe my point was that the biceps wouldn't be quite as prominent, to the exclusion of the rest of the arms, although it's been a while and I might well have changed my mind by now. ;-]

I do thank you for the correction, though.

[WhiteFox]

llearch: Check this vid out. Around 4:20 they show some really good footage of the kind of combat I'm talking about. All the really fast, powerful hits? You can see them putting their whole body behind the shot. The weaker looking swings are from the shoulder.

Kipriu:*Knuckle Crack* Well, if you're inviting me...

First of all... gray lines.  This really cripples the pic, not only with Fa'lina but also Abels hands, any edge against the green background, and all of their clothes. I cant even tell what pose Fa's right (Her right, our left) hand is in. I'd either color them (a style that still lacks contrast, I find), or make em dead black. I don't know what your process is, how much is on paper vs. on computer, so I can't really make a suggestion there. (I can say this much: scan it at high res, convert it to a black and white image to get rid of any antialiasing and gray lines, then color. Shrink it down to 50 or 25 % to get your antialiasing back.)

Technical notes on anatomy: The sternomastoid (The most prominent muscle in the neck, from the front) meets up with the center of the collar bones. Dan and Abel's don't quite seem to make it there. Fa'lina doesn't seem to have a tricep. Dan's arm should be tucked further back, our view of it should be partially blocked by his pec. The muscles between Dan's elbow and the wrist aren't quite built correctly (they shouldn't bulge that much, even if there is that much mass to them). Fa's hips should start their outward taper much higher up on her waist. For women, as soon as the torso stops curving in, it starts curving out.

A note on Abel's saber guard.... it should be widest at the top, and taper as it goes down. From our viewing angle, it should be triangular. The guard he has will just get his fingers sliced up since he has no cross-guard or bell. Also, he holds his swords like a sissy, keeping his arms tucked in. Lift his elbows up and out. His thumb is abnormally bent which makes the grip look weird. The membrane of his wing doesn't connect with his back. Lastly, his pectoral doesn't meld into his shoulder properly: it has a bulge that meets his bicep, when the the entire pectoral muscle sorta folds into the armpit.

I'm not gonna comment too much on the wings, as just about every single fantasy artist (Internet and otherwise) seems to be incapable of drawing realistic wings. Including me. They do look fairly stiff and unnatural, though.

Your shading gets a little weird in places. All of the shading seems to be ambient, to imply shape to muscles and such, but there's no direct lighting. The shade on Abels dark patches (fur and clothes) seems to be inverted; the shadows are lighter rather then darker. It really hurts readability.

Now, despite all these comments, I don't think this is a bad pic by any stretch of the imagination. The facial expressions are great, Fa'Linas hand is delicately poised, just so, on Abels sword, and although it isn't accurate to the characters I get a kick over the exaggerated musles on those two. I like the design of Fa's dress, too.

Nice work.

[Tapewolf]

I can say this much: scan it at high res, convert it to a black and white image to get rid of any antialiasing and gray lines, then color. Shrink it down to 50 or 25 % to get your antialiasing back.

Oh.  That's how we do Project Future.  Looking at the multilayers from other artists, I always assumed it was a quick hack for the weak and inexperienced...

[WhiteFox]

It's not a hack if it gets results. The final product is all that matters.

I think Turnsky does the same thing, I got a lot of advice from him when I was developing my process for DSOF.

I use Photoshop, and the nice thing about a straight up BW scan is that you can magic wand and fill huge areas of color very quickly, and if you want to shade you can magic-wand again to set up a mask.

I still use separate layers for coloring and inking, among others (Most commonly a layer for panels/borders, and one for speech balloons. Sometimes SFX, when I need it).

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

llearch: Check this vid out. Around 4:20 they show some really good footage of the kind of combat I'm talking about. All the really fast, powerful hits? You can see them putting their whole body behind the shot. The weaker looking swings are from the shoulder.

I see.

I note that the guy using the long staff? He's not very good with it, I think. At least, in the videos shown; however, I will admit that there's a lot of emphasis on the sword moves than on the staff moves, at least in the video.

I don't claim _I'm_ much better, mind, but I train with some people who would eat him and the guy opposing him for breakfast. Without even breaking a sweat. ;-]

(although I would be interested in taking him on without armour... and the staff I train with is 33mm diameter, not the apparent 22mm they have there...)

[Kipiru]

* Kipiru gathers his blown away mind and takes a deep breath. Then he bows slightly in gratitude to the Fox*
I mean, really dude, that was an awsome comment! Thanks!

[WhiteFox]

llearch: Technically, Staff fighting in the SCA isn't an allowed weapon form for safety reasons. You're not allowed to make a two handed swing over 180 degrees (SCA, the corperation, has to worry about getting sued and insurance. But to be fair, we get less injuries per year then *golf*). What the guy said about rattan isn't really true: They use rattan not because it'll break before your bones do, but because when it does break, it breaks in a way that doesn't send splinters and shards into the other guys eyes or tender bits. The 180 rule really inhibits a lot of things you *could* do with a staff, spear, halberd, two handed sword, etc, so I don't doubt that you could easily train someone to kick that guys ass, if he had to follow the rules and you didn't. One thing to remember about Combat in the SCA is that it's not actually combat, but it's not staged. It's more like a sport.

Kipiru: You're welcome, glad to help. I have to update my sig now. 

[Tapewolf]

I think Turnsky does the same thing, I got a lot of advice from him when I was developing my process for DSOF.

[Examines some full-res Turnsky art]

Well I'm buggered!  So he does.  Shadrok seems to fill each object as a blob of colour, with the actual lineart superimposed over it.  He also has one layer per object which can be a PITA - Project Future 33 had approx 77 layers before I rationalised it.  IIRC Keaton and Aisha seem to work in a similar way - though less extreme - so I kind of assumed that was the 'proper' way to do it.

The only multilayer I have from Amber - part of my commission - has the figure as a single layer, with the original lineart on a backup layer.  I was rather surprised at that, since I figured she'd use an additional layer for the shading.  I guess it might be a reduction mix, though.

I use Photoshop, and the nice thing about a straight up BW scan is that you can magic wand and fill huge areas of color very quickly, and if you want to shade you can magic-wand again to set up a mask.

Same here, only with Gimp.  First stage is to tidy up the lineart to ensure all the shapes are complete, after that it's flood-filling each sector and cleaning up.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

llearch: Technically, Staff fighting in the SCA isn't an allowed weapon form for safety reasons. You're not allowed to make a two handed swing over 180 degrees (SCA, the corperation, has to worry about getting sued and insurance. But to be fair, we get less injuries per year then *golf*). What the guy said about rattan isn't really true: They use rattan not because it'll break before your bones do, but because when it does break, it breaks in a way that doesn't send splinters and shards into the other guys eyes or tender bits. The 180 rule really inhibits a lot of things you *could* do with a staff, spear, halberd, two handed sword, etc, so I don't doubt that you could easily train someone to kick that guys ass, if he had to follow the rules and you didn't. One thing to remember about Combat in the SCA is that it's not actually combat, but it's not staged. It's more like a sport.

Ah, that 180 degrees thing would restrict things quite a bit.

Be nice to take a team of Mau Taiaha folk across and show them how it's done in the real world, though. *grin* "Armour? We don't need no steenkin' armour..." ;-]