[Art/Writing] Jairus: Merry Christmas

[Ren Gaulen]

Quite some interesting stuff you've got there, Jay. I don't have much comments, other than it's weird that "beam" weapons can take complex shapes other than beams. I like your idea for "laser" weapons (which are exactly what I would have called "beam weapons") and stun/EMP weapons - it really makes sense. As for your beam weapons, how about using some form of controlled gravity field to hold and shape plasma to create melee weapons and shields?

[Jairus]

Quite some interesting stuff you've got there, Jay. I don't have much comments, other than it's weird that "beam" weapons can take complex shapes other than beams. I like your idea for "laser" weapons (which are exactly what I would have called "beam weapons") and stun/EMP weapons - it really makes sense. As for your beam weapons, how about using some form of controlled gravity field to hold and shape plasma to create melee weapons and shields?

Well, "laser saber" and "laser shield" just sound stupid. And the use of "beam" as the word to describe such exotic weapons is a reference to Gundam. And I'm not using "light" to describe them. I mean, I'd probably get in trouble if I used "PM light saber."

As for the mechanics of controlling the beam plasma, it's a combination of the mechanics of beam technology and the energy field used to charge/stabilize the beam. Forcefields are also common, though more advanced beam weaponry can forgo this or combine it with the other bits used to control it.

[Azlan]

So you are using pseudo-science in your weapon designs?  I base my designs off of theoretical, real-world physics.  Some of the stuff I do is outlandish, but it has scientific grounding and theory. 

[Jairus]

So you are using pseudo-science in your weapon designs?  I base my designs off of theoretical, real-world physics.  Some of the stuff I do is outlandish, but it has scientific grounding and theory. 

You mean beam weapons? Of course they're pseudo-science. How could they not be? I did mention that beam weapons have to use exotic particles (M-class particles, something that doesn't exist in our universe (IE, Minosky particles, GN particles, stuff like that)) in their design, and it's because of their nature that you can make swords and shields and stuff out of it. None of the other energy weapons can do that, because they're a bit more grounded in the real world, which is why all you can do with them is shoot stuff. On top of that, most of these weapons were originally designed by technomancers, people who are able to basically warp the laws of nature to get the result they want.

Of course, this whole thing is somewhat undermined by the fact that MAGIC ITSELF is a pseudo-science in my settings... and that one of the characters has built something that so far appears to be a true perpetual energy generator...

Compared to that, energy weapons that don't quite work in the real world are a little minor, woudn't you say?


... did that come off as a little defensive? I don't think I meant that.

[techmaster-glitch]

... did that come off as a little defensive? I don't think I meant that.

If I might interject, to me, Azlan came off as a little agressive. I had to restrain myself from responding to his comment, deciding to let you handle it how you wanted.

[Brunhidden]

So you are using pseudo-science in your weapon designs?  I base my designs off of theoretical, real-world physics.  Some of the stuff I do is outlandish, but it has scientific grounding and theory. 

You mean beam weapons? Of course they're pseudo-science. How could they not be? I did mention that beam weapons have to use exotic particles (M-class particles, something that doesn't exist in our universe (IE, Minosky particles, GN particles, stuff like that)) in their design, and it's because of their nature that you can make swords and shields and stuff out of it.

actually many of these 'psuedo science' applications aren't all that far out of the reach of modern technology. things like swords and shields made of 'energy' are intricately linked with what seems like the holy grail of research and development- cold fusion. however we are likely to get lightsabres before cold fusion, the basic philosophy is that our next breakthrough we need is to develop the ability to create magnetic containment fields. while magnetic fields wont give us cold fusion and infinite energy, they WILL give us some fun tricks, like forcefields that repel bullets, hold a field of plasma or antimatter or any other bizarre items scientists can make that kind of make items explode or corrode thus making a shield or sword made of whatever hazardous materials you wouldn't want to touch.

think beam swords are cool? the potential is also out there for swords made of fire, acids, antimatter, various exotic plasmas that make fire look pathetic, or possibly even just pure magnetic fields which may have disturbing effects on metallic targets

science is wonderful in all of the fun anomalies that float out there, even ones as simple as violet light touching metal making a current flow, or as complex as a bucky ball, its all up for grabs with cool gizmos




jay, i know i don't post much or comment on your works but know that i rather like your innovative way of thinking. keep dreaming, your dreams are getting good

[Omega]

not to crush your dreams or anything, but theory  and reality are two pretty different things. Theories are often flawed and unperfect and even if we know exactly what would happen, there's still the mater of how to we get there. Often just to test a single theory would require funds to buy Brazil AND Portuguese (That's what they're really doing in France right now btw). The problem is that we've come so far with Physics, mathematics and chemistry that there's nothing simple to solve anymore. All the easy words are filled from the crossword puzzle. Biophysics and biochemistry, however, are what's hot today. Look into the cells my friends, not the stars.

[Tapewolf]

Biophysics and biochemistry, however, are what's hot today. Look into the cells my friends, not the stars.

That may be, and biochemistry might even make you a usable, portable power plant, but I'm not sure it would help with directed energy weapons.

[Pagan]

If biochemistry can give me automail, it has suddenly become cooler than physics, which could have given me light sabers.

[Omega]

...but I'm not sure it would help with directed energy weapons.

Why would you need an energy weapon, if you could send a disease against your enemies. The effects last longer, it would be nigh impossible to protect against it and you would be immune to it.

Alright, so it won't do much good against a space ship, but those things are still pretty far away.

There has been only one miracle in this universe. Best to stretch it as far as we can.

[Azlan]

You mean beam weapons? Of course they're pseudo-science. How could they not be? I did mention that beam weapons have to use exotic particles (M-class particles, something that doesn't exist in our universe (IE, Minosky particles, GN particles, stuff like that)) in their design, and it's because of their nature that you can make swords and shields and stuff out of it. None of the other energy weapons can do that, because they're a bit more grounded in the real world, which is why all you can do with them is shoot stuff. On top of that, most of these weapons were originally designed by technomancers, people who are able to basically warp the laws of nature to get the result they want.

Of course, this whole thing is somewhat undermined by the fact that MAGIC ITSELF is a pseudo-science in my settings... and that one of the characters has built something that so far appears to be a true perpetual energy generator...

Compared to that, energy weapons that don't quite work in the real world are a little minor, woudn't you say?


... did that come off as a little defensive? I don't think I meant that.

No, no you are fine.

What I meant by pseudo is the over-used Star Trek habit of throwing scientific sounding gibberish at people.  I misunderstood your reference to Minosky particles.  I generally do not approve of complete fantasy, but if it works for you then that is all that matters.

If I might interject, to me, Azlan came off as a little agressive. I had to restrain myself from responding to his comment, deciding to let you handle it how you wanted.

Your opinions generally hold no weight with me, think what you will.  If you have a problem with it, report it to the moderators.  If you are going to post stuff like this for the pure pleasure of harassing me, then let's get it on and I will own you.  If I could fend with Netami, then techmaster-glitch is no problem at all.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Your opinions generally hold no weight with me, think what you will.  If you have a problem with it, report it to the moderators.  If you are going to post stuff like this for the pure pleasure of harassing me, then let's get it on and I will own you.  If I could fend with Netami, then techmaster-glitch is no problem at all.

And I'm going to step in right there and stop it.

Neither of you should take this any further. This is more than far enough. If you really must, take it to PM, but we don't need this sort of wrangling going on here.

[Brunhidden]

...but I'm not sure it would help with directed energy weapons.

Why would you need an energy weapon, if you could send a disease against your enemies. The effects last longer, it would be nigh impossible to protect against it and you would be immune to it.

the flaw with biological warfare is its banned by the Geneva convention, largely because you cant AIM it at anything smaller then a medium landmass

energy weapons have advantages versus armor, often don't run out of ammo, vehicles and soldiers using them have the benefit of not having to carry said ammo unless its got a heavy powerpack, and they look freaking awesome

nobody would watch an anime with a hero who throws vials of modified anthrax at burglars and inadvertently wiping out half the city

[Lisky]

Ehh... if we want to talk about some crazy outlandish, yet still ground in modern science, weaponry... I enjoy my IPDNWS (Infantry Portable Directed Nuclear Weapon System)  If you've got a powerful enough magnetic containment field, you could actually do this... the basic idea, detonate a nuclear bomb in a chamber that can maintain a powerful enough magnetic containment field that the nuclear blast is formed into more of a coherent beam of energy... now my understanding is that the gamma radation (what will actually cause most of the radiation poisoning problems) rides on the edge of the outer blast wave... soo, in theory the person firing the weapon should be safe from radiation poisoning... though i'm still trying to think of  a non-psudo science way for an infantryman  firing the weapon to not get fried by sheer residual heat, so far, the best i can do is extend the field out several meters beyond the actual gun barrel... (temperatures estimated at between 15,000 - 40,000 degree's F at it's hottest)  Now, if you mounted it as a mobile suit weapon, you'd have the same overall idea, but now it's actually survivable... making the user a badass with a nuclear firearm...

[Brunhidden]

if your worried about an infantryman being boiled when firing it, merely upgrade to a small 'tank' which most of the forward armor is actually heat shielding.

less chance of the single soldier you gave this superweapon to being felled by pathetic rifle rounds... that would just be anticlimactic

on second thought, scrap 'tank' and just make it a motorcycle with heat shielding so you can dart in, make the boom, and flee before you get perforated

[Jairus]

Oh, why stop there? Why not an anti-matter warhead capable of a one-thousand gigaton nuclear explosion? It exists in my setting (as a magical spell developed by a very powerful mage). It was originally designed to wipe cities off of the map. It's never been used that way, though, no need to worry about that. But it was once used to kill a single person: whoever used it wanted to make sure their enemy was dead. Any guesses as to what happened?

Really, while this is all fascinating, there's a few problems here. First of all, nuclear weapons do not exist on Terra, and due to the different focus on weapons, they probably never will be. Secondly, technomancers prefer more complicated biological weapons than a simple virus, such as a Frankensteinian monstrosity or a small bio-engineered pet that spits a corrosive venom. Thirdly, nukes are more of a human or elf or dwarven weapon, not the weapon of a changeling or Faerie. Fourth, and most importantly, I don't use them in the story, and I don't see a reason to.

Now, as for Belenus... that's a topic for another day. I will say that a capital-sized version of what is essentially an IPDNWS does exist. And some forms of gas exist. Not many, and they're not wildly used. Because the ones using them quickly figured out that the damn stuff is really dangerous. So they wised up, and no one uses them.

That setting with those cyber psychers had handheld nuclear bombs. Low-yield, but effective.

I was originally going to do a little thing about two Mobile Suits - the Roland GM armor and the Durendal armor - but I think I'll have better luck on those tomorrow. Today... well, today was today.

[Tapewolf]

Why would you need an energy weapon, if you could send a disease against your enemies. The effects last longer, it would be nigh impossible to protect against it and you would be immune to it.

Jairus has already said 'no', so I'm not sure this is welcome, but I've come up with a few other scenarios/counterarguments.  Firstly, if you have developed your own immunity to the disease by a vaccine or somesuch, it means that the enemy can work out how to get that same immunity by capturing troops etc.  There are other ways but I won't go into those.  Unlike energy weapons you'll also tend to have people who are naturally immune simply because of genetic variation.
Oh, and unless you've done a stellar job of tailoring it it will tend to wipe out other creatures too - ruling over a dead land is a bit of a pyrrhic victory. 

The other thing is that biological weapons tend to take time to work... a suicide squad can do a lot of damage in the meantime.
If I was completing a Deathstar that took the GDP of entire star systems to construct, the fact that the enemy strike team will die in a few days is cold comfort if they blow themselves up and take the whole damn thing with them 

[Jairus]

That, and there's also the chance of mutation, which might render your immunity absolutely useless. All in all, viruses and diseases and stuff like that are really bad ideas. And chemical weapons aren't much better.

The only biological weapons in my settings are the kinds you can see. Frankenstein-like creations, bio-engineered acid-spitting insects, war hounds... stuff like that.

[Mao]

As I read through this I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a fellow Star Wars fan years ago (back during my glider pilot training.. so long ago. ).  Essentially we were discussing bits of technology from Star Wars and how they *might* be possible based off of some modern theory.  We both understood that they were just theories, but if the theory were to be proven true then we were trying to figure out how to work that into making those dreams reality.

One of the ones that came up is actually almost identical to what you've discussed thus far Jairus.  It's that of Bottled Plasma.  While I wasn't (and am still not) confident in my understanding of it (and can't find much to research on it) the basic premise is that if one could find a way to use a magnetic field to bottle hot plasma, it would be possible to create a weapon that is essentially a lightsaber.  The characteristics of this method would quite closely match what we see in the movies (even the 'whoosh' sounds to some extent).

It was kinda neat to see that you've had a similar idea to him and used it here.  Where did you get the idea from?

[Jairus]

As I read through this I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a fellow Star Wars fan years ago (back during my glider pilot training.. so long ago. ).  Essentially we were discussing bits of technology from Star Wars and how they *might* be possible based off of some modern theory.  We both understood that they were just theories, but if the theory were to be proven true then we were trying to figure out how to work that into making those dreams reality.

One of the ones that came up is actually almost identical to what you've discussed thus far Jairus.  It's that of Bottled Plasma.  While I wasn't (and am still not) confident in my understanding of it (and can't find much to research on it) the basic premise is that if one could find a way to use a magnetic field to bottle hot plasma, it would be possible to create a weapon that is essentially a lightsaber.  The characteristics of this method would quite closely match what we see in the movies (even the 'whoosh' sounds to some extent).

It was kinda neat to see that you've had a similar idea to him and used it here.  Where did you get the idea from?

Glider pilot? Wow. You're a lot braver than I. Um... hm. Beam weapons just need to function that way in my mind, because I seriously doubt that you can shape a magnetic containment field in the ways that some beam weapons have been used (not just in other shows and stuff like that, but also in my universe). Blaster weapons in my mind have simply always been plasma weapons, which is also true of Star Wars if I recall. If I recall, part of the problem of bottled plasma is that you can't use it to made a plasma bolt, because the field collapses really fast, though I'm probably not remembering right. As for laser weapons, I was just trying to come up with a justification for all of those sub-light "laser" weapons in fiction. It's also a minor reference to that mecha story idea of mine, where at one point one of the characters uses a beam rifle to create a pathway for a bolt of lightning (albeit, accidentally: it ended up shorting out his mech and leading to him being captured). Also, if I recall correctly, in canon a lightsaber is in fact a plasma blade. Someone who remembers that kind of stuff (or can be bothered to check the Star Wars Wiki) would be a better source of information.

Anyway, onto the real purpose of this post...

The following is what happens when you spend a week on vacation and spend most of it separated from the internet: you come up with new and improved ideas of old stuff. Of course, then you let this stuff stew for a while and talk back and forth with someone willing to pick it apart and ask questions, and eventually you get this. This is based on/edited from a post I made a month and a half ago regarding Terran tech. A quick shout-out to Ren and Pagan, who let me throw these ideas off of them and then threw them back until it all fit together. Alright, enough of my blathering. Onto the technology! Away!

Um... first a quick redo of information.
Mobile Armor = AI-driven combat robot, typically humanoid/human-sized
Mobile Suit = powered armor
Fortress Armor = large non-humanoid machine, controlled from a cockpit or by AI
Fortress Suit = large humanoid machine, a giant robot, always controlled from a cockpit

REI Drive
The REI Drive is a device that converts stored magical energy into electriciy (and a waste byproduct) through a form of fusion. Developed by technomancer Mariko Iogi while working in concert with a young Justinian, REI is short for Rasen Enjinhatsudouki Ittaika, meaning "Spiral Engine Integration," which also describes the cog-like shape of the central mechanism inside the sealed container. The original intention of the device was to make use of magical energy, an abundant natural resource, to generate usable power for non-magic users. REI Drives can vary in size, from modules small enough to be held (the most common model, used to power Mobile Armors and their ilk) to massive units that power military airships and other weapons. The basic design of the REI Drive and core mechanics of the drive have remained unchanged since it was first built over nine hundred years ago, and today it is extremely common, especially in the military. REI Drives are largely immune to all but the most powerful magic, due in part to their construction and in part to the waste product of the fusion reaction. REI Drives also cannot be recharged without a special recharge rack, which also jumpstarts drive's fusion reaction (a security feature to help prevent theft). Some REI Drive-equipped units have a special module that not only can slowly recharge the unit, but can also start the unit by itself: these modules cannot be used while the drive is active, but REI Drives can be recharged while in use. Since the units are powered by magical energy, any installation or ship equipping these units requires large magical capacitors or collection arrays to help recharge the units. One key difference among drives is their efficiency: not all drives are equally as efficient. The efficiency of a drive can be noted by the color of light emitted by the REI Drive's waste byproduct, the Thauma Nucleus Particle, also known as a TN Particle.

NULL Condensatrum (capacitor)
Another key component of REI Drive operations, NULL Capacitors do double duty as storage mechanisms for TN Particles (the waste product of the REI Drive's fusion reaction) and as sub generators that use TN Particles to generate additional power for the unit. NULL Condensors use what is essentially a dynamo to generate as much as 25% of a unit's total power. Not only are these units necessary to get the most out of the drive and also store TN Particles for other uses, NULL Condensors have become a part of the iconic image of Mobile Armors: the large slightly-glowing crystal face of the mechanism is arguably what defines a Mobile Armor as a Mobile Armor for most people (rather than the hidden REI Drive), and the same for its brethren Mobile Suits, Fortress Armors, and Fortress Suits. In order to grant MAs full operating capacity right off the bat, their recharge stations are often designed to load a full charge of TN Particles into the capacitors as they jumpstart the units. While the earliest MAs had a single large chest-mounted capacitor, the first MSs used two slightly smaller shoulder-mounted units (the operator took up too much room for the MA-style capacitor), beginning the current trend of having multiple smaller capacitors throughout the unit to make it easier to get power and TN Particles where they need to get. Current-day Augustan units still use a large central capacitor in addition to the smaller sub units, but tend to cover it in a layer of armor. As a bit of trivia, NULL does not stand for anything: it is simply a poor joke by the system's inventors.

TN Particle
The REI Drive's waste product, the Thauma Nucleus Particle is an M-class particle that - since it's discovery by Mariko Iogi shortly after creating the first working REI Drive - has a large number of uses. Its first function, and the most obvious one, is that it is an anti-magic particle: the particle's decay makes it more difficult to collect, channel, and control magic, depending on the concentration of particles in the environment. It is worth noting that magitech devices are largely immune to this effect: the magitech power grids used to recharge REI Drives, for example, are shielded against the effect of TN Particles to allow them to collect the energy necessary to charge the units. TN Particles can also be used in the creation of beam weapons, which retain their magic weakening effect, though significantly more focused. It can also disrupt magic in other ways, such as wounds caused by TN Particle infused weapons being unable to be fully healed through healing spells and the like. The shear variety of uses for the TN Particle is limited only by the technology of the time, and the ones who are experimenting with it. The particle's abilities come from its decay as it gradually breaks down. As the particle decays, it emits a characteristic glow that indicates the reactor's efficiency: an orange particle indicates that the drive that created it is more efficient that a red particle. The change in color comes from the amount of energy lost in the reaction, and does not indicate that the particles themselves are weaker or stronger in any way: a red particle is identical in power and abilities to one that is yellow. While the earliest REI Drives gave off a low-efficiency red particle, most modern ones give off an orange or yellow particle: though theoretically a green or higher particle is possible, no one has yet been succesful at creating a reactor efficient enough to do so.

Okay, another life-saving injection into my little thread. Okay, comments, questions, clarifications? Do ask.

[Ren Gaulen]

Well, we have discussed everything concerning REI Drives and TN Particles before, so I don't have much to add. But why can't a Fortress Armour by controlled by a human?

[Jairus]

Well, we have discussed everything concerning REI Drives and TN Particles before, so I don't have much to add. But why can't a Fortress Armour by controlled by a human?

I said that it can.

Fortress Armor = large non-humanoid machine, controlled from a cockpit or by AI

Actually, most FAs are in fact controlled from a cockpit. Or a "cockpit" that is basically a place that an MA docks into to control it with it's own AI.

And yes, I changed the name of the capacitors.

[Ren Gaulen]

Well, we have discussed everything concerning REI Drives and TN Particles before, so I don't have much to add. But why can't a Fortress Armour by controlled by a human?

I said that it can.

Sorry. I am stupid. Didn't notice the "or" part.

[techmaster-glitch]

So, is this like an alternate counterpart to that Thauma-Furnace Reactor in one of your other settings?

[Jairus]

So, is this like an alternate counterpart to that Thauma-Furnace Reactor in one of your other settings?

This is the Thauma Furnace Reactor. Well, sort of. Allow me to explain...

What you are experiencing is two-fold. First, you are experiencing the development of a technology beyond "it does this with this and it also does that." It is a fleshing out of the mechanics and abilities of a piece of technology that already existed in my mind, and then adapting it to better fit the story. Second, you are experiencing the development of a work-in-progress story. Mobile Armors, for example, were originally an ancient unstoppable clockwork army that gets stopped in five seconds because the technology in them - no matter how advanced it was for the time - is still nine hundred years out of date. And now they are a common thing, rather than a legendary artifact.

So, does that help? Any other questions?

[Mao]

Glider pilot? Wow. You're a lot braver than I.

Eh, not really.  A glider is just a small plane with no engine and a wicked glide ratio (read.. really long wings and itty-bitty living space cockpit).  You have to understand how to fly without an engine before you even think about trying to fly with one.  It didn't hurt that at the time I was absolutely infatuated with the Robotech/Macross universe (the YF-21 will always be my favorite).  Though I got it pounded into me early on in my training that only one thing awaits the hotshot ace: an untimely, unfortunate and ultimately avoidable death.  That kinda spoiled it for me a bit.  I was training through cadets so we were being taught by military instructors and they are very clear on the matter of 'heroes'.

The trick is to do your drills, listen to your instructors and to focus on the task at hand.  If you can do that, you can fly.  Once you can fly, the sky is yours.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.

Sadly, you too are human, and prone to err. And up there, if you err, you can't get out and walk.

[Jairus]

Thanks for the reminiscence, Mao. And a good point, Boxy.

Okay, in yet another attempt to revive my thread (I should have become a necromancer!), I'm gonna try to write some form of poetry, even just a single haiku. Thanks for posting in your thread, Cogi: that's the second reason I'm doing something like this.

All of my classes
Are in the same building. But
Why is it so far?

Then again, a thirty
Minute walk in the cool air
Is not all that bad.

I wince in pain, and
Stumble to a seat. Lancing
Pain travels my leg.

My ankle hates me.
Why else would it plague me for
Two whole years by now?

(For the record, I hate my ankle right back.)

First to those one leads,
And then to those who lead you.
This is what must be.

Ishimura
There floating high o'er planet's shell,
Now rests the dying derelict.
A thousand souls once here did dwell,
Its empty halls now silent crypts.
...
You know what? I can't finish this tonight. I'm sorry, I'll have to come back to it later when I'm not tired. Good night all!

[Gabi]

Interesting poem... Have you seen a doctor about your ankle?

[Ren Gaulen]

Nice haiku. Too bad about your ankle, though.