The joys of dealing with society (NSFW: Some content may offend.)

[Netrogo]

Whoo! Thanks Naldru, now I have someone to randomly direct alzheimer's jokes at

I don't know why anyone would be shocked to find someone pushing fifty online really. I mean the fiftyish year olds of today were in their twenties in the seventies. That's the generation that invented pulling all nighters. Not to mention age means nothing online anyways. I mean I've seen the most mature ten year olds in games and the most immature thirty year olds *coughHalocough*

[Alondro]

Whoo! Thanks Naldru, now I have someone to randomly direct alzheimer's jokes at

My grandmother has Alzheimer's.  She's lying in a care facility unaware of anyone or anything, slowly wasting away.

[Netrogo]

Whoo! Thanks Naldru, now I have someone to randomly direct alzheimer's jokes at

My grandmother has Alzheimer's.  She's lying in a care facility unaware of anyone or anything, slowly wasting away.

That's gotta suck >.< Not taking back my joke, but I am sorry about your grandma.

[Naldru]

Probably not a good idea to make jokes about chronic diseases like Alzheimer's or cancer.  Better skip bad burns and severe trauma also.  There's always going to be somebody on the forum for whom it is a very sensitive subject.

Now there have been some jokes about heart bypass surgery, such as the one about the fellow talking about the man known for his meanness: "I was amazed to hear about him having heart bypass surgery.  I thought you had to have a heart first."

Diabetes can also be a target at times: "That web comic was so saccharine, he had to stop reading it because it was making his diabetes worse".  Or this one.

Old crotchety people who are hard of hearing and waving canes is usually safe.  At least at a distance.

[Netrogo]

Yeah but if we're gonna be watching for stuff that may offend people, we can't make those jokes either. Gah either way this shouldn't have come up in Amber's bday thread dammit! It was a joke it's not like I was specifically looking to offend someone. Teasing people even slightly older then you by saying 'Hyuk alzheimer's settin in early there buddy" has been a common joke for years. It's not meant to offend those who have family unfortunetly effected by it.

[superluser]

Teasing people even slightly older then you by saying 'Hyuk alzheimer's settin in early there buddy" has been a common joke for years. It's not meant to offend those who have family unfortunetly effected by it.

Might I suggest senility?  That's a non-specific term that covers many diseases of dementia ranging from benign to severe.

[Netrogo]

Teasing people even slightly older then you by saying 'Hyuk alzheimer's settin in early there buddy" has been a common joke for years. It's not meant to offend those who have family unfortunetly effected by it.

Might I suggest senility?  That's a non-specific term that covers many diseases of dementia ranging from benign to severe.

That does sound like a relatively happy medium.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

That does sound like a relatively happy medium.

What, like a fortune teller on valium?

[Naldru]

That does sound like a relatively happy medium.

What, like a fortune teller on valium?

I don't know, but I get the feeling that some of the posters here are on something.

As far as jokes go, there is questionable and then there is the category that Abel describes here.  Alzheimer's, cancer, and the Holocaust are often felt to be more in this later category.  (By the way, I have relatives whose suffering fell into each of these categories.)

The question isn't whether these topics will offend somebody.  It's the fact that these categories are guaranteed to be highly offensive to a significant fraction of the readers.  Yes, to a certain extent, we do have to watch what we say and avoid some topics.  It is known as being a member of society.

[Netrogo]

Rather then continue ruining Amber's bday topic I'm dragging the slowly expanding conversation about how/how not to offend people in here.

To continue where we left off...


Frankly the problem I have with people getting offended easily at a subject is where do we draw the line. Personally I have an uncle who's in the beginning stages of Alzheimer's. Yeah it sucks that such a great guy is slowly losing his mind, but on the other hand I know that he'd probably joke about it himself if he had the ability to understand what's going on himself. I mean it's the same as funerals. We all weep and moan and junk, yet we all know that the person in the box would want us to be happy. Hell I cracked jokes at my best friend's Mom's funeral, I made him laugh in that moment when he needed it most. Why? Because his Mom asked me years ago when she was alive to look out for him. To hell with the people that hardly knew her that gave me dirty looks. Her fucking son was the most important person there and he appreciated it, and I know she would have too.

In public there's always someone that will be offended about whatever you say or do. It's like an alternate version of Rule 34 only instead of 'there's porn of it' it's 'someone's offended by it'

I think we should have limits but at the same time we need to set those limits within reason. We make fun of the Inquisition nowadays yet it wasn't that funny all those years ago when it happend. We make jokes about Hitler all the time. I mean comedians do whole stand up routines about tragedies that are fresh in everyone's minds all the time. I'll have to find it but I recall one guy doing a bunch of stuff involving New Orleans shortly after it was totalled.

Long story short, I think people just need to get a little tougher skin in regards to what people are saying. I know it's a lame line that we've all been hit with growing up but really, I don't take offence at random things people say (I admit I DO get annoyed easily at idiocy *coughkaskarcough* but I don't get offended by the use of one word even if it's directed right at me) and I'm pretty good at telling the difference between people who're being serious (Some racist fuck calling my black friend a 'fucking N word that I'm not allowed to say on here') and someone who's kidding (Me telling my black friend I'll just go ahead and order chicken and ribs and save him the hastle of thinking about it).


Edit:
Just putting a warning into the topic, so that people don't wander in here by mistake.
  -- llearch

[Netrogo]

Since this conversation seems to be continuing and I don't want to drag it through Amber's BDay thread I've started a thread to continue it in...

http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=3247.0

Now back to your regularly scheduled well wishes and such

[Feroluce]

Im not entirely sure this needed another topic, on the other hand if it keeps Ambers Birthday thread clean then its probably a good thing.

What we are sinking into is the realms of PC. Or, where we dont make a joke because we dont want to offend people.

Now I have to say, in some levels this makes sense. I would never, for example, walk into a catholic church, make biting motions on the back of my hand, and then tell everyone I was pretending to be "Jesus, biting his nails!" because lets face it, I would probably get crucified myself.

On the other hand, while in a bar, I can tell the same joke. even to friends I know are religious. because even if it sends me to hell, its a funny joke. especially after a few beers.

On more 'serious' topics... well, the holocaust I cant argue with. then again, there were those horrible jokes that came out about Hitler crying over the bus of jews that fell off the cliff? you remember, it ended with him saying "But, there were three empty seats!" This joke was around not long after the end of the war. Hell it probably started during the war. And it was funny, unless you happen to have been in the holocaust personally. Even then, Im sure some of those people can hear that joke, put their own trauma aside, and laugh. Such strong people should be looked up to.

I now have three people in my family who have had cancer, and my grandmother died of it. Liver cancer, actually. But even to her, I made jokes about not being able to drink wine anymore. why? she was a wonderful person, who knew she was dying. She lived up to her next birthday, and stopped taking her meds. At the end, she was a mess, as most terminal cancer patients are. She wasnt even herself anymore. Which is why I am actually really glad I could still joke with her while she could get it.

Senility I cant vouch for. No one bar my dads mom in my family has lived long enough to get it. Mostly we all die from heart attacks, and going by how much I take after my fathers side of the family, I will probably go the same way. Hell, Im already on Statins. But you know what? I still tell jokes about heart attacks. So does my dad, who has had one or two. why? because we can laugh at ourselves.

thats really what it all boils down to, right? lauging at ourselves, and not getting prickly and sensitive over something that was only a lighthearted attempt at humor. Life's too short to get wound up over jokes.


As for people getting agitated about cancer jokes or other such serious issues because someone they knew or know suffers... jeeze, lighten up! people WITH these conditions are laughing. and they are in a far better position to judge. Dont take offense for someone else, or speak for a minority you arent in. Its unfair, its Hypocritical, and it demeans the people you are speaking for.


edit: Man, I suck at nesting bbcode, lol.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

So far as I'm concerned, anyone who can't deal with the odd bit of harsh language should go back into the kindergarten with the other animals, and come back when they've hatched into real people.

That includes tasteless jokes. *shrug* but then, I realise not everyone agrees with me on that point, so...

Heck, I -would- step into a church and tell the priest the joke about Jesus biting his nails. But then, I also realise that at least some priests of my acquaintance would find that funny. At least, the ones sufficiently relaxed to cope with reality - anyone who can't take a joke shouldn't have signed up for the job, IMTAO. But then, I digress.

I may be thicker skinned than many, however.

Speaking of funerals, there's two points:

One, a friend of mine said his fathers' funeral was a mess - the priest just didn't "get it". However, after the funeral they took the casket (made by his father, for himself - I guess it's a good way to make sure it fits and is comfortable - out of unfinished pine) back to his father's workshop, set it across two sawhorses, and cracked open the beers while they remembered all the good times he'd had. Including parking a couple beers on top of the casket itself.

He reckoned his father would have been happy to see that - it was the right atmosphere and everything. I like that idea - spending time remembering how the good times were, rather than remembering the bad times at the end.


Secondly, I decided a while ago that, when I go, I want to have my organs harvested, insofar as possible and reasonable (which might not be, for all I know. By then, we may well make spare organs in an afternoon) then sewn back up. I want my internal cavity stuffed with gunpowder or dynamite or something - if they can lay their hands on RDX or something, so much the better - and then, at the height of the festivities, so to speak, I wish to be fired from a catapult or trebuchet into a live volcano.

Going out with a bang, you might say.

[Netrogo]

Your funeral will be THE. BEST. EVER!!!

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

*tidies up*

Don't mind me...

[superluser]

I want my internal cavity stuffed with gunpowder or dynamite or something - if they can lay their hands on RDX or something, so much the better - and then, at the height of the festivities, so to speak, I wish to be fired from a catapult or trebuchet into a live volcano.

Your funeral will bankrupt your family.  You know that, right?

[Netrogo]

My thread is all confusing and clustered looking now

[RJ]

Secondly, I decided a while ago that, when I go, I want to have my organs harvested, insofar as possible and reasonable (which might not be, for all I know. By then, we may well make spare organs in an afternoon) then sewn back up. I want my internal cavity stuffed with gunpowder or dynamite or something - if they can lay their hands on RDX or something, so much the better - and then, at the height of the festivities, so to speak, I wish to be fired from a catapult or trebuchet into a live volcano.

Going out with a bang, you might say.

I want my organs harvested, get cremated, have whatever is left shipped to Sweden, and then have my ashes crushed into a diamond.

Then I'll be placed into a ring that can be a family heirloom, and when somebody loses it everyone can yell. "YOU LOST YOUR GREAT GRANDMOTHER?!"

Ah, good times.

[Alondro]

Oh I wasn't alll that offended.  I just wanted him to be sure to think a little about what he posts.  It'd have to be a major personal attack directed at me in particular for me to be offended by it.

People should simply be aware that this type of joking can spill over into real-life conversation if it becomes habitual, and before you know it you've seriously hurt someone you didn't mean to.

[Netrogo]

Not to be out done I have two words to describe my 'death fantasy'

Zombie.

Cyborg.

'nuff said.

[Naldru]

Probably not a good idea to make jokes about chronic diseases like Alzheimer's or cancer.  Better skip bad burns and severe trauma also.  There's always going to be somebody on the forum for whom it is a very sensitive subject.

I am quoting myself because I don't think I said what people think I said.  (Some people have been attacked in the past for quoting themselves.)  What I said was that jokes on these topics will bother a significant portion of the readership.  I have no doubt that the people who would be disturbed can deal with it.  I personally wouldn't make jokes in this area because I know that it will really upset some people because of what they are currently going through.

I'm not saying that you can't make these kind of comments.  I just feel that it is not polite and is a violation of netiquette.  In addition, some things may seem offensive when put in writing that wouldn't be offensive if presented in person.  (It is difficult to "smile when you say that" when using the internet, and smileys aren't a complete substitute.)

*****  *****

There was an individual who I saw frequently on a MUCK.  I made a comment that it seemed like he never left the MUCK, and learned that he was a home bound paraplegic.  I don't think I offended him, and I certainly wouldn't want to ever offend him.  I would certainly hate the idea that I accidentally offended him.

I know for a fact that there are people on this forum for whom cancer is not just something happening to somebody they know, but a fact of their personal life.  If your father or grandfather has Alzheimer's, it is extremely destructive to your personal life.

[Netrogo]

I can agree with trying not to offend people too terribly but like I said before, my uncle has alzheimer's. It doesn't bother me when people make jokes about it, cuz I know they're not making them about him in particular. It's not like they're saying 'Lol ur Unkel haz Alzheimers!!1!' Even then I'd sooner just quip back at them with something along the lines of 'Lol he can still type better then you' or something rather then getting in a huff or offended.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Your funeral will bankrupt your family.  You know that, right?

I said I wanted.

I expect to get shoved in a box and dumped in a hole.

Of course, I won't be around to complain, so it's a break-even proposition.

[Feroluce]

I would like to donate organs when I die. But am not allowed to. >.< I lived in england for a year in 1990, and so apparently there is a chance I could have Mad Cow Disease. -twitch- no one will even take my blood, curse them!!

so yeah, the cremation and diamond treatment for me too. Only, I dont think I will be a family heirloom, since I was thinking of being on a deep necklace. That way I could spend death between cleavage... and that would be weird if it was family cleavage.  >.>;;;

[lucas marcone]

people will be offended to varying degrees depending on memories attached to them. for the record my opinion on being offended is such. have a hard skin but you need to realized if you keep anger or sadness from said jokes bottled up it can tend to be unhealthy. just keep in mind some people are going through diffrent things and you have no idea how they will react and what might be the appropreite way to react depending on the person and situation


that said senility jokes strike really close to home... my friend's aunt julie (she might aswell have been my aunt too we were that close) had a couple of strokes and now she dosent even remember a single thing about me. it hurts, oh god it does hurt and when people make jokes it's like a tiny nail in my heart. there is a point to wich i will laugh because they arn't to terribly offenceive but when someone makes a joke like "what do you call a retirement home? a vegtable garden." i want to rip their lungs out and beat them about the head with a brick untill thay are in a sililar condition as the people they are jokeing about.

im sorry to ruin your tough skin parade but i felt it had to be said.

[Feroluce]

Lucas... man. I have to say, that is one thing I can say isn't something to joke about right now. Yet Im sure that in time you will. Humor is a way of dealing with issues, after all, and sooner or later you will think "Wow, now she wont remember that time I broke her window..." and hate yourself for it even as you stifle a giggle. see, because if you dont stop and laugh, you will never heal. Not even your friends aunt would want you to carry around that kinda hurt for the rest of your life, no one would want that kinda burden on anyone.

so next time someone tells you that you cant microwave cabbage because the wheelchair wont fit... laugh. dont react with your pain, react with your head, and remember that if you can genuinely laugh at a situation, it isnt nearly as painful.

In that respect, I think you are wrong. laughing at something that affects you personally isnt about bottling up something that hurts you, or hiding it behind thick skin. its about letting yourself laugh, and relax. its about healing. Not laughing, not seeing the brighter side, is just like nurturing your hurt, never letting it go. Im not saying that you can just start laughing now. its clear that this is still a newish, sensitive area for you. Just dont beat on others for their laughter, and dont be suprised when you start laughing yourself one day.

[Damaris]

Honestly, I don't think watching someone slowly and systematically lose every part of their personality and their memories as their brain almost literally falls apart is that funny.  But then, I know five different people who are either suffering from Alzheimers or are losing a close family member from it. 

Just because you are able to laugh about it, Netrogo, doesn't mean that others can, or even want to.

[Ryudo Lee]

My ex-roommate's grandfather died some time ago, of a cancer if I remember correctly.  According to his final wishes, he was cremated and his ashes stuffed into shotgun shells and fired over his land.  They made a whole day out of it.  My friend kept one of the unfired shells, for sentimental reasons of course.

It really kinda makes me wonder, how do I wanna go out?  I certainly don't want to spend the rest of existance as ashes in a jar on someone's shelf.  Maybe I'll have my ashes dumped into the Mississippi, or blown up over the Mississippi.  I dunno.  I still have quite a few years to think about it.

But back to the topic of offensive jokes.

There are a lot of things that can potentially be offensive, but it really boils down to the individual person and their feelings on the subject of the joke.  

Personally, I'm a New Orleanian, but any cracks about Katrina and other jokes about New Orleans don't bother me.  Heck, I lol'd at that episode of the Simpsons where they lampooned A Streetcar Named Desire when it originally aired.  The next day a bunch of the older kids in the school I was attending wrote letters to our local Fox affiliate damning them for what they said about New Orleans.  The next day, the school recieved an apology letter and the letter appeared in the newspaper.

It's no secret, I'm a big guy.  But the fat jokes stopped bothering me at around 5th grade.

My grandfather on my mother's side died of complications from leukemia... on the day of 9/11.  No joke.  But even so, joking about that sort of thing doesn't bother me all that much.

But even so, I'm of French heritage, so all the little French jokes that get tossed around every which way these days really rub me the wrong way.  I don't care what France's delegates did.  That's still my heritage they're poking fun at.

And I guess that's all I have to say about that.

[Alondro]

Your funeral will bankrupt your family.  You know that, right?

I expect to get shoved in a box and dumped in a hole.

Of course, I won't be around to complain, so it's a break-even proposition.

I wanna get eaten by lions!      *someone on the forum is offended because a family member was eaten by lions last year.  Charles is sued for millions due to emotional distress and loss of consort*   

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Charles is sued for millions due to emotional distress and loss of consort*   

Er... loss of CONSORT ??

What, he was so distressed he fed his partner to the lions or something?