[Art] Keaton the Black Jackal: Commission Preview~ (21/10/09)

[Jairus]

I think it looks great, Keaton. I'm not complaining about your older drawings, but I kind of prefer the proportions on Piix: the others were just a bit too thin. I look forward to seeing the finished drawing.

[Ren Gaulen]

This'll teach all those people who thought Keaton was anorexic!

Yeah! She just have grown up on Mars!!

[Sunblink]

I think it looks great, Keaton. I'm not complaining about your older drawings, but I kind of prefer the proportions on Piix: the others were just a bit too thin. I look forward to seeing the finished drawing.

Thanks, Jairus. I'm really glad you like the drawing. Comparing this to my older drawings is actually a big encouragement for me, because I wanted for this picture to be a noticeable improvement. I'm going to try and draw the rest of my characters like this from now on.

Yeah! She just have grown up on Mars!!

Go to your room.

[Ren Gaulen]

Yeah! She just have grown up on Mars!!

Go to your room.

..yes, master..

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Since I really need any and all advice on improving my anatomy, constructive criticism is encouraged for this picture.

Ok, as has been said: it's much better, weight wise, than your previous art.

Sadly, she's still a stick, IMHO. While she's much more realistically proportioned, she's still skinny as. For example, try drawing your big bug. Anyone that big is gonna have to be heavyset, which gives you a little too far in the other direction to go, as it were.

More specifics: She's got huge (hyoooge!) feet, but the rest of her is still a skinny, borderline emaciated child. It's unusual to get evolution providing feet that large, unless she's standing on very thin, wet soil; having fur on them is another unlikely issue with that, although it's not clear from the sketch (yet) if the feet are furred, since if you're standing in soupy mud, you tend to grow slick feet that wipe off easy, so you don't end up harbouring parasites in the top of your feet.

I'd say throwing another 30-40kg onto her frame wouldn't hurt, unless she's supposed to be a skinny little child form. Obviously, being tree-based, one presumes that she has branch-like bones, rather than calcium, but that implies a larger frame rather than a smaller one; carbon systems tend to take up more space for the same tensile strength as calcium, IIRC.

More discussion elsewhere, though, if you want.

[Amber Williams]

Beep Beep! Here comes the MSPaint train!

Ugh...so miss Photoshop so much...

Anyways. The thing I am noticing is it looks to me you tend to draw from the outline and not from a frame...which is always going to make proportions and anatomy a little wonky. 

If I was a brutal school of hard knocks mistress, I would offer the advice that my professor gave me...but honestly its hard boring work and no matter how much people say they want to learn it, they never actually do it so I am not going to waste breath and typing minutes.

I will say that I would recommend you try to work more from the base up and actually try to build a frame before you start adding the outlines. I did a quick MS over your image and simply adding the box on the chest for her ribcage and the shape for her hips adds about 20 lbs. (Take that camera!)

Its like you got the general anatomy down. You know hip bones are connected to the pelvic bone...but you don't actually know the parts underneath the skin that make it possible and so you just kind of draw the familiar part.

[Sunblink]

Since I really need any and all advice on improving my anatomy, constructive criticism is encouraged for this picture.

Ok, as has been said: it's much better, weight wise, than your previous art.

Sadly, she's still a stick, IMHO. While she's much more realistically proportioned, she's still skinny as. For example, try drawing your big bug. Anyone that big is gonna have to be heavyset, which gives you a little too far in the other direction to go, as it were.

More specifics: She's got huge (hyoooge!) feet, but the rest of her is still a skinny, borderline emaciated child. It's unusual to get evolution providing feet that large, unless she's standing on very thin, wet soil; having fur on them is another unlikely issue with that, although it's not clear from the sketch (yet) if the feet are furred, since if you're standing in soupy mud, you tend to grow slick feet that wipe off easy, so you don't end up harbouring parasites in the top of your feet.

I'd say throwing another 30-40kg onto her frame wouldn't hurt, unless she's supposed to be a skinny little child form. Obviously, being tree-based, one presumes that she has branch-like bones, rather than calcium, but that implies a larger frame rather than a smaller one; carbon systems tend to take up more space for the same tensile strength as calcium, IIRC.

More discussion elsewhere, though, if you want.

Oh no my ego

Actually, I'm perfectly fine. Someone had mentioned earlier through Messenger that Piix looked like she had the body of a twelve-year-old, but I didn't know that it was still emaciated, so this comes as a surprise. However, this lets me know I should keep improving, so... Thank you for the input, llearch. I should probably keep the proportions, but add a lot more weight onto the figure.

I'm starting to wish I had a little shoulder-fairy that hovers over my shoulder. And whenever it notices that my figures are too skinny it'd bark out commands in my ear and make me correct them. XD That does it. ANATOMY BOOK TIEMS. I should have some in my closet, so I'm digging them out the next time I start drawing.

As for the feet, my Chemistry teacher pointed them out yesterday so I fixed them so that way they are a little less exaggerated: adding smaller toes kind of reduced the overall size of the feet. I should upload the finished sketch for you to see later.

Beep Beep! Here comes the MSPaint train!

Ugh...so miss Photoshop so much...

Anyways. The thing I am noticing is it looks to me you tend to draw from the outline and not from a frame...which is always going to make proportions and anatomy a little wonky. 

If I was a brutal school of hard knocks mistress, I would offer the advice that my professor gave me...but honestly its hard boring work and no matter how much people say they want to learn it, they never actually do it so I am not going to waste breath and typing minutes.

I will say that I would recommend you try to work more from the base up and actually try to build a frame before you start adding the outlines. I did a quick MS over your image and simply adding the box on the chest for her ribcage and the shape for her hips adds about 20 lbs. (Take that camera!)

Its like you got the general anatomy down. You know hip bones are connected to the pelvic bone...but you don't actually know the parts underneath the skin that make it possible and so you just kind of draw the familiar part.

HOLY CRAP AMBER'S IN MY ART TOPIC

I'm extremely, extremely happy about the advice you gave me, actually, because you also provided me a visual reference. This is absolutely perfect - it shows me everything I should fix and how I can. Thank you.

The problem is with the framing, though, is that I typically draw totally by freehand. However, judging from what you've showed me, the frame concept might be the easiest way until I get the hang of anatomy. It seems that, according to your reference, the angling of the neck is wrong as well. That's a little surprising, but I'll keep this in mind.

I'm going to do another body drawing following the instructions you gave me. It's not going to look like something done by a professional since it'd be the first time I ever drew something by a frame, but maybe I can incorporate it into future works to help me understand anatomy properly.

Oi. I can't wait until I start art classes. Then I'd feel more like I'm not just dicking around. I swear to god that I'm listening to all the advice that's given. Thank you all so much, guys.

[Amber Williams]

HOLY CRAP AMBER'S IN MY ART TOPIC

Nya ha ha. I in ur art topics! Messing up ur esteem!

I'm extremely, extremely happy about the advice you gave me, actually, because you also provided me a visual reference. This is absolutely perfect - it shows me everything I should fix and how I can. Thank you.

I like giving visual references when I can. Cause I know its one thing to say "hey. I think this and this and this is kind of wacky" and expect the artist to see it.  But being able to throw down some examples or point of reference usually can help.

Had I still photoshop,  I could have done a lot better of a reference cause MSPaint is a pain and doesnt really quite work as well as I would have liked.

The problem is with the framing, though, is that I typically draw totally by freehand. However, judging from what you've showed me, the frame concept might be the easiest way until I get the hang of anatomy. It seems that, according to your reference, the angling of the neck is wrong as well. That's a little surprising, but I'll keep this in mind.

Dont worry too much about some of the details...odds are since I had to squiggly mouse scribble, I may have a few dozen things off myself.  My main goal was to show how adding a lil box for the chest and for the hips can help sometimes in getting the torso to not look so rubbery.

I used to draw totally by freehand too. A good chunk of DMFA likely showcases that.

After a figure drawing class and a few other college courses though, I really noted an improvement in my body construction.  Like I said...the framework is a start and helps set things in place to go by. As you get more experienced, odds are your framework will only be a series of like..3 light lines to indicate where the body is going.

It seems in my experience before you can start getting away with shortcuts, you need to know the entire map first.

I'm going to do another body drawing following the instructions you gave me. It's not going to look like something done by a professional since it'd be the first time I ever drew something by a frame, but maybe I can incorporate it into future works to help me understand anatomy properly.

No rush and no pressure. Frames are kind of one of those things you just take lil baby steps on.  I personally would just start off doing a frame with the face. (the light circle with the cross-section) and then as you get to each next part, do a quick frame scribble. So from the head you draw a neck then do a light box to indicate where the chest is gonna be.  And so on...

Odds are your first time dealing with frames is gonna have you making too large of chestboxes and the figure is gonna look BEEFY or you will find yourself not wanting to use the guide. Which is fine. It takes a few tries to start gauging the size for things.

Oi. I can't wait until I start art classes. Then I'd feel more like I'm not just dicking around. I swear to god that I'm listening to all the advice that's given. Thank you all so much, guys.

NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF DICKING AROUND!
Honestly half the time I come across something creative that improves my art, its because I was dicking around and just being a doofus scribbling.

[techmaster-glitch]

...Personally, I like the way Keaton proportions her characters, if only because it is recognizably her own unique style.
But that's just me...

[xHaZxMaTx]

...Personally, I like the way Keaton proportions her characters, if only because it is recognizably her own unique style.
But that's just me...

QFT.  Realism is nice, but style is all that and a bag o' chips.

I feel so lame not critiquing anything after these walls of text, but I have nothing to critique!   'Cept maybe her face, which looks kinda... squished.

[Amber Williams]

I don't have anything against ones style, but far far FAAAAAR too many artists I have come across will use that as an excuse to hide behind for their lack of skills.  Having a style is one thing, not having the general anatomic knowledge and then claiming they do it because its stylistic is another.  And I have seen also FAAAAR too many mouthbreathers who will shove nothing but sunshine and flowers up an artists butt and then months later the artist gets hit with the nasty criticisms and it turns into a gigantic "dont listen to them. Your stuff is PERFECT." and they just stagnate artwise.

If you look at many pro artists in the big leagues, even the ones with highly stylized artstyles, you will find a good number of them can bust out a charcoal figure life model if given the materials and the image.  For them, their style is a choice and done because the already know the rules of the game and can now bend them to match their artistic preference.

So many people seem to think that learning basic anatomy in a class with others is gonna suck their style out of their bodies and turn them into corporate tools.  But it doesnt. You don't just "lose" your style, all that learning new things does is teach you how to utilize and add onto it.

[Ren Gaulen]

I think that the "emaciated" look of Piix may be related to her being an alien, so it is not necessary for Keats to make those changes suggested above to Piix (I'm talking only about Piix here). She looks anatomically correct already. But when she draws more human-like characters, she definitely should follow Amber's and L's advice.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I think that the "emaciated" look of Piix may be related to her being an alien, so it is not necessary for Keats to make those changes suggested above to Piix (I'm talking only about Piix here). She looks anatomically correct already. But when she draws more human-like characters, she definitely should follow Amber's and L's advice.

Oh, definitely. Perhaps I wasn't clear - if it _was_ a deliberate choice, then it's all good, and no problem at all.

However, from what KeatyBaby has said here and elsewhere, I figured she wanted some direction for improvement in the fields mentioned. Hence why I coughed up... ;-]


... And then got utterly slammed by Amber's contribution. Oh, well. ;-]

[Sunblink]

I don't have anything against ones style, but far far FAAAAAR too many artists I have come across will use that as an excuse to hide behind for their lack of skills.  Having a style is one thing, not having the general anatomic knowledge and then claiming they do it because its stylistic is another.  And I have seen also FAAAAR too many mouthbreathers who will shove nothing but sunshine and flowers up an artists butt and then months later the artist gets hit with the nasty criticisms and it turns into a gigantic "dont listen to them. Your stuff is PERFECT." and they just stagnate artwise.

If you look at many pro artists in the big leagues, even the ones with highly stylized artstyles, you will find a good number of them can bust out a charcoal figure life model if given the materials and the image.  For them, their style is a choice and done because the already know the rules of the game and can now bend them to match their artistic preference.

So many people seem to think that learning basic anatomy in a class with others is gonna suck their style out of their bodies and turn them into corporate tools.  But it doesnt. You don't just "lose" your style, all that learning new things does is teach you how to utilize and add onto it.

Quoted for ze truths. THANK YOU. <3

[xHaZxMaTx]

You don't just "lose" your style, all that learning new things does is teach you how to utilize and add onto it.

Hmm...  Good point - hadn't actually thought of that.   I'll hush-up, now.

[Mao]

Nothing I can add in the face of that advice, but I do like the picture despite it all.  Keep working at it Keats.

[Yugo]

I don't have anything against ones style, but far far FAAAAAR too many artists I have come across will use that as an excuse to hide behind for their lack of skills.  Having a style is one thing, not having the general anatomic knowledge and then claiming they do it because its stylistic is another.  And I have seen also FAAAAR too many mouthbreathers who will shove nothing but sunshine and flowers up an artists butt and then months later the artist gets hit with the nasty criticisms and it turns into a gigantic "dont listen to them. Your stuff is PERFECT." and they just stagnate artwise.

If you look at many pro artists in the big leagues, even the ones with highly stylized artstyles, you will find a good number of them can bust out a charcoal figure life model if given the materials and the image.  For them, their style is a choice and done because the already know the rules of the game and can now bend them to match their artistic preference.

So many people seem to think that learning basic anatomy in a class with others is gonna suck their style out of their bodies and turn them into corporate tools.  But it doesnt. You don't just "lose" your style, all that learning new things does is teach you how to utilize and add onto it.

As a musician, I'd like to add to this. I've seen a lot of musicians stagnate into patterns or single areas of music because they thought learning chordal structure and all that somewhat boring stuff would just hamper what they were doing in the end. But that's like thinking that painting with only three colors when you could be painting with all of them is better. When you understand all of the rules, you can bend them to your will however you like. As a bassist that likes to play a lot of chordal and solo stuff I'm often asked why I play my instrument more like a guitar instead of the traditional role of the bass. But why should I let myself stick in that one place when I could branch out to many?

Learn everything you can, and you can apply that knowledge however you like later on. And this applies to everything, not just art. =D

[Brunhidden]

just yesterday i went to my brother in laws wedding, and i was usher along with my best friend from highschool. and i notised something about him

he IS as thin and boney as older keaton drawings, i find this cool to an extreme level. his boney hands make him the best guitarist i know

seeing the two of us next to each other is a contrast painful to the eyes

so dont beat up your old work too much, it always has a place even if only for contrast or for a scant few freaky people

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

he IS as thin and boney as older keaton drawings, i find this cool to an extreme level. his boney hands make him the best guitarist i know

*blink*

In the nicest possible sense, Brun... pictures, or I won't believe it. ;-]

[Brunhidden]

he IS as thin and boney as older keaton drawings, i find this cool to an extreme level. his boney hands make him the best guitarist i know

*blink*

In the nicest possible sense, Brun... pictures, or I won't believe it. ;-]

sadly he is a little more camera shy then i am, and you know how rare a picture of me is.

anyways the only photo i have of him at the moment he is wearing the tuxedo. that was a fiasco, he and i went to get measured so we could be the ushers- they measured my shoulders and thus gave me the fat man tuxedo that had to be taken in everywhere, they gave him one that needed some kind of support frame to keep it suspended around his body or it would fall off. humorously we were the only ones in the wedding party not given top hats and canes, later when i appropriated one from a groomsman who had passed out  found out why- on  me it sat like a phez, on my old friend it covered everything above his mouth

i still stand by my statement that he is really that thin, its why we were friends in the first place. back in kindergarten and gradeschool he was super tiny, and bullies would have eaten him alive except i came to protect him. it was a good relationship, we laughed a lot, talked about everything, and due to our sizes it was mutually beneficial what with me being scary and he actually having the use of his hands and the ability to see further then ten feet... except i became hunchbacked for several years of talking to someone who only came up to my sternum- lately he got as tall as me so thats no longer a problem other then my spine makes funny noises

so disbelieve me all you want boxy, the creations of keaton are REAL!

[WhiteFox]

I'm kinda jumping in here, (I kinda glossed over some of the posts, sorry.) But I just had a few things to toss in that Amber started on.

The one spot that bugs me is under her left arm. Her side doesn't show any sign of a ribcage or her oblique. It's just smooth. Also, I think her breasts need to be set lower on her chest (Unless her back is arched in ways I hitherto had not imagined possible). I'd also suggest moving her head further to the left, her neck looks like it's about to snap.

As a note on pose... if a figure is in a mid step, as she seems to be, the shoulders and hips are usually turned sepratly. IE: her left shoulder should be pulled back.

I'm diabetic, by the way, and skinny as a rail (30.5 inch waist, and seven of my ribs show on each side). I can tell you this for certain: even if your characters don't have fat or muscle, they should have tendons and bones.

I am a firm believer of the fundamentals, and especially anatomy. You can't really capture a person unless you know that under the skin, they have muscle, and under the muscle, they have bones. If your drawing doesn't have bones and muscle under the skin, it doesn't seem as real to the viewer. That might sound weird, suggesting that you have to draw something we can't see, but for the skin to seem real, we must believe there is muscle underneath it. And if you want to cartoon something, you have to know what the real thing looks like. Inside and out.

Can't wait to see more.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

sadly he is a little more camera shy then i am, and you know how rare a picture of me is.

Awww. :-( *pout*

humorously we were the only ones in the wedding party not given top hats and canes, later when i appropriated one from a groomsman who had passed out  found out why- on  me it sat like a phez, on my old friend it covered everything above his mouth

Heh. BrunnyChan with a fez!

*snerk*

[Sunblink]

Holy shit, everyone. Thank you so much for offering so much constructive criticism and critique! I'm overwhelmed with happiness.

Unfortunately, I couldn't make the adjustments that Amber suggested since I had already drawn the top part of the outfit onto the picture. The scan I had uploaded onto my art topic was outdated. Applying everyone's critiques to my drawing style, however, I should improve my pictures considerably. Thank you all.

I figured I should show you all the finished product of the picture, even if I couldn't make any alterations to the body. I kind of felt ashamed about uploading this since I couldn't adjust it, but, eh...

CLICK HERE

Either way, I'm very proud of the clothing design. Piix's markings haven't been added yet, and I fixed her arm because it was giving me so much trouble. If I ever color the picture (I probably will have to, for future reference), expect them to be added. Not all of the eraser marks have been removed because I'm a dinkbutt.

As for why Piix's belly button is absent, I haven't decided how the Orin are born (through eggs or live birth) so I figured I should leave that ambiguous for now, until someone suggests something interesting or until I come up with something. Me and Stygian are deciding on a method since he suggested a chrysalis-type reproduction.

Oh, but I did fix Piix's feet. Hopefully they look more reasonable in size.

Coming up next is Tapewolf's belated birthday present and commission. You cannot escape from me, Tape! 

[Tapewolf]

Coming up next is Tapewolf's belated birthday present and commission. You cannot escape from me, Tape! 

Oh noes.

With Piix, the thing which immediately strikes me is that her clothes - specifically the leggings -  don't seem to have much thickness to them.  The top is fine, but with the legs it is a little ambiguous was to whether they are covered or not.  If they are covered and not tattoos or similar markings, the material is very thin and skin-tight.  If that's not the way it's supposed to look it might want some attention.

That aside, it looks very nice.

[Paladin Sheppard]

Awesome stuff Keats! I do have to go with Tape's assessment of her leggings though, are they really thin or do you need to adjust?

[Sunblink]

Oh noes.

With Piix, the thing which immediately strikes me is that her clothes - specifically the leggings -  don't seem to have much thickness to them.  The top is fine, but with the legs it is a little ambiguous was to whether they are covered or not.  If they are covered and not tattoos or similar markings, the material is very thin and skin-tight.  If that's not the way it's supposed to look it might want some attention.

That aside, it looks very nice.

I think I understand what you mean. Actually, Piix's legs are mostly bare, with the exception of the socks you can see decorating her shins. I figured leggings would look a little awkward with her sash. This isn't terribly clear when the markings haven't been added, mind you. I'm still designing them so she looks more like a poison dart frog and less like a cheap knockoff of Keaton.

I did want to give her harem-style silk bottoms, but when I tried that, it looked pretty silly so I decided to save that for later.

She is, however, wearing undergarments (like a bikini bottom) beneath her sash. You can't see them all that well though.

[Ren Gaulen]

Good work, Keats! I still think that Piix doesn't necessarily need to be adjusted furtherer, since she looks quite fine already. Clothing design looks great too, but I agree with Tape - her pants look like they are painted on. Can't wait to see this picture coloured.

[Tapewolf]

I think I understand what you mean. Actually, Piix's legs are mostly bare, with the exception of the socks you can see decorating her shins.

Yes, it's the socks which could do with a little tweaking, since they follow the line of her leg exactly - ideally they should be thicker than the rest of it.

[Sunblink]

I think I understand what you mean. Actually, Piix's legs are mostly bare, with the exception of the socks you can see decorating her shins.

Yes, it's the socks which could do with a little tweaking, since they follow the line of her leg exactly - ideally they should be thicker than the rest of it.

Ah, alrighty then. I see what you mean. I'll adjust it a few times until I can achieve the effect desired, as you suggested.

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

[Ren Gaulen]

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

You are welcome.