1-10-07 Meet The Wall

[Zedd]

Lets see if the route of honesty will keep on going for these nutsiods

[Ted Schiller]

Aaryanna treated Dan as a six-year-old.  Abel treats Dan like an adult.  When he said he respected Dan, he meant it.

  Celebrates the wonderfulness of Abel. 

With regards,
Ted

[MT Hazard]

Well at least he didn't make the basic mistake of putting his thumb inside his hand when he hit, could of been worse. I get the idea Dan getting very annoyed about having to actually confront his feelings, and those you can't just rush up and kill (I've tried)

On the 'I'm starting to dislike you' front there is a useful phrase for that "If you want to lose a friend, tell them something for their own good"

That may be paraphrased but the essential point is there. Abel's self assigned role of 'Honest jerk' allows him to be a good friend, he forfeits any benefits he might get out of a friendship to help Dan.

Its like the stages of growing up (my own version but still essentially true in many cases)

Stage One: You Know you parents know everything. (birth to 10 ish)
Stage Two: You realise you parents don't know everything (10 ish to 13)
Stage Three: You Know your parents don't know anything. (13-19 ish)
Stage Four: You realise you parents might know something, in fact you go to them for advice... (20+)

Good deal of variety to what extend kids will go though but the above does happen.

Like the friend you stop talking to because he strongly objected to your girlfriend/boyfriend/ lifestyle, true friendship and dare I say it, Love may not be recognised in its own time. Anyone ever hear the Mike and the Mechanics song 'The living years' ?

[Tapewolf]

I heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi, and that sorta gets me thinking. Could Abel have taken Devin's soul as a way of "making it up to him"? Keep him alive as a part of Abel or something in exchange for getting him killed by distracting him? That might influence his behavior.

Now that I've got to read.  Do you know roughly whenabouts that was, and if it was Amber's own theory or someone else's?  I'll search the entire archive if need be but a rough pointer would handy... was it since you joined that forum, for instance or the result of searching the archives?

Anyway, as for Abel having done this to Devin, I have my doubts.  Even if soul manipulation is an innate 'cubi ability rather than a collection of spells passed down from generation to generation, Abel is almost certainly going to have to learn how to make it work rather than being able to do it instinctively.

[Sid]

I heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi, and that sorta gets me thinking. Could Abel have taken Devin's soul as a way of "making it up to him"? Keep him alive as a part of Abel or something in exchange for getting him killed by distracting him? That might influence his behavior.

Now that I've got to read.  Do you know roughly whenabouts that was, and if it was Amber's own theory or someone else's?  I'll search the entire archive if need be but a rough pointer would handy... was it since you joined that forum, for instance or the result of searching the archives?

Didn't really dig myself, but it may have been tied to strip 572, which kinda spawned or fueled the "soul as power" theory... Just my quick guess, though.

[ShiningShadow]

Abel deflected an attack from Dan I know that technique is a open palm style of Wu-Shu. Watching enough kung-fu flicks I know some of the styles by the way of blocking and attacking. Abel being sarcastic and being honest I like that. Dan has to make the right choice and tell Jyrass about this and hope that their friendship will not be damage because of this.

[superluser]

You know, I'm noticing that, while Dan is reputedly (and evidently) a master adventurer, his skill is not in unarmed combat.  In fact, he needed a spork to defeat the Deathknights.

I heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi

His ovo-pack is the seventh spirit?

[Akisohida]

*Charline notes* Well, Destania left when Dan was still fairly young.  She didn't have much time to teach him.  And let us not forget, though a whiny hemophobe who didn't want to sodomized (Bah!  It's loads of fun!), Abel was also in the adventuring class and is also 400 years old.  I'm quite certain he exceeds Dan's skill levels.  Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans.  Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing.  And our extremely long lives would mean we'd have many being lifetimes to hone our skills!  We would become death... the destroyers of worlds... 

*Sneaksneaks up and hugs Charline to stop the tirade about death and doom.* Spider hug!

And ShiningShadow? I would NOT believe movies are a good source of info on martial arts of ANY kind. I took Akido when I was young, Modern Arnis up untill a few years ago, and whatever the heck a place called Vilari's teaches. (Vilari's = The McDonalds of Martial arts; Generic as heck and the classes are everywhere ) In all the martial arts I took, I have YET to actually see ANYTHING as flashy as the stuff in movies. Even Modern Arnis, whocs creator (Or should I say, adaptor?) was so recent, my teacher trained under him directly, is not all that flashy.

I guess, what I should say is, movies put too much flash into martial arts; flips, spins, taking out 10 people at once.. Any martial arts is pretty much more about getting the job done rather than showing off..WIth the possible exception of Caipoaira. Story goes that Brazilian slaves were planning on breaking free so they developed this combat style to look like a dance so they could practice it under the watchful eyes of guards without getting busted. All the guards thought they were oing were, well, dancing.

*Ends rant/history lesson and snuggles Charline again.* Is it mean to hug an arachnophobe or is it nice since the person in this case is rather evil?

[Alan Garou]

Abel may be right, but he is being a complete and utter jerk. Almost all he's done to Dan since they've met is beat him up. A good slap in the face can help drive home a point, but it's almost starting to seem like Abel enjoys hurting Dan. I have lost much of my respect for him.

[Alondro]

*Charline goes cat-atonic in the spider hug, whimpering pitifully*  Oh noes... he's gonna suck out my insides!   

*Charles hmphs*  Serves you right if he does!  Anyway, I hate to agree with Charline, but it does make sense that most adventurers wouldn't stand a chance with anything but the most inexperienced or non-violent cubi.  Given what we've seen of Abel's ability with multiple swords, how could a poor adventurer hold up?  Imagine an adventurer trying to fight Fa'lina, for instance!  Erf... urp... no, on second thought don't imagine that.  The adventurer ends up rather... entropic, to put it lightly.   

[superluser]

Abel may be right, but he is being a complete and utter jerk. Almost all he's done to Dan since they've met is beat him up. A good slap in the face can help drive home a point, but it's almost starting to seem like Abel enjoys hurting Dan. I have lost much of my respect for him.

A dope slap is probably not going to leave a mark or kill brain cells, but likely to have the same effect.  Abel also seems to enjoy destroying the building.  I suspect that Alexsi will not appreciate that, either.

[Sid]

Abel may be right, but he is being a complete and utter jerk. Almost all he's done to Dan since they've met is beat him up. A good slap in the face can help drive home a point, but it's almost starting to seem like Abel enjoys hurting Dan. I have lost much of my respect for him.

The funny thing is that I have more issues with Abel suddenly being able to deflect blows like that. Suckerpunching and over-the-top threats are sort of in line with his jerkitude, but this calm deflection looks... just wrong to me.

Come to think of it, the Cubi we know the most are better in battle than ANY of the regular main cast people. Wasn't one of the Cubi weaknesses that they "tend to be highly inexperienced at battles and highly egotistical... thus often leading them to underestimate their opponents"?

At this rate, I'll move over to the "Abel is overpowered" side. *frowns lightly* Too many obvious advantages, too few disadvantages that actually matter (oh, fear of blood - scary!).

All in all, there's a slight imbalance, judging from what I see right now. In his arc, Abel's life is pure Hell, and in the main comic, he's cocky, element-resistant, magic-using, suckerpunching, mindreading, emotionjamming and experienced in martial arts.

Ah well. We'll see how this ends. Maybe the balancing moment for Abel is just around the corner... o.o

[Janus Whitefurr]

Abel is nearly 400 years old.

Abel has, outside the obvious trauma of his youthful life, spent the majority of his time in the SAIA. Where one can learn, as we were shown, a plethora of skills.

And suddenly he's 'overpowered'? As you will, sir.

[superluser]

At this rate, I'll move over to the "Abel is overpowered" side. *frowns lightly* Too many obvious advantages, too few disadvantages that actually matter (oh, fear of blood - scary!).

Hey!  Don't knock hemophobia.  You can actually faint because an excessive vasovagal reflex produces bradycardia and orthostatic hypotension.  Pretty much eliminates any usefulness in a fight.

Yeah.  It looks like somebody just poured all the negatives into one, overpowering weakness at the request of the DM.

All in all, there's a slight imbalance, judging from what I see right now. In his arc, Abel's life is pure Hell, and in the main comic, he's cocky, element-resistant, magic-using, suckerpunching, mindreading, emotionjamming and experienced in martial arts.

Also, don't forget that Aary is older, and seems weaker, and Abel's only field experience in adventuring was one where he spent most of his time either vomiting or in the fetal position.

Edit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline.  There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.

Don't say that there isn't, because then I'll have to prove that Abel couldn't have actually performed that move.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans.  Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing.

I beg to differ. At least some of the pacifists would be interested in exercise, and spending a couple hundred years focusing on aikido, in the pure form, is likely to make you -very- hard to kill.

I really should see if I can find a sensei around here to start learning aikido off...

[Stygian]

Who the hell wants to learn just Aikido? Take my advice and go for some Jeet Kune Do with that, and you'll have the whole package.

I don't see how the good Mrs. Williams would have thought that Abel would have moved though. He'd have to spin around for that one, and Abel's posture is kinda... Well, I don't know. And is it just me, or does Dan seem two seconds from crying in that first panel...?

Oh, and Charline... Don't struggle. Just be happy it's not a female spider and try not to squirm too much when he makes a spring roll of you... *Stygian looks serious, but then grins*

[Kasarn]

Abel is nearly 400 years old.

Abel has, outside the obvious trauma of his youthful life, spent the majority of his time in the SAIA. Where one can learn, as we were shown, a plethora of skills.

And suddenly he's 'overpowered'? As you will, sir.

He's going to turn into Super Saiyan 3 any time now; I'm sure of it!
Then Majin Buu Regina will attack and they will have a fight to the death which isn't to the death because Lorenda, Dan and Jyrras convince Abel to make a wish that Regina become good!

THE WORLD IS SAFE AGAIN, ALL THANKS TO THE Z-FIGHTERS. HOORAY!

[ShiningShadow]

*Charline notes* Well, Destania left when Dan was still fairly young.  She didn't have much time to teach him.  And let us not forget, though a whiny hemophobe who didn't want to sodomized (Bah!  It's loads of fun!), Abel was also in the adventuring class and is also 400 years old.  I'm quite certain he exceeds Dan's skill levels.  Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans.  Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing.  And our extremely long lives would mean we'd have many being lifetimes to hone our skills!  We would become death... the destroyers of worlds... 

*Sneaksneaks up and hugs Charline to stop the tirade about death and doom.* Spider hug!

And ShiningShadow? I would NOT believe movies are a good source of info on martial arts of ANY kind. I took Akido when I was young, Modern Arnis up untill a few years ago, and whatever the heck a place called Vilari's teaches. (Vilari's = The McDonalds of Martial arts; Generic as heck and the classes are everywhere ) In all the martial arts I took, I have YET to actually see ANYTHING as flashy as the stuff in movies. Even Modern Arnis, whocs creator (Or should I say, adaptor?) was so recent, my teacher trained under him directly, is not all that flashy.

I guess, what I should say is, movies put too much flash into martial arts; flips, spins, taking out 10 people at once.. Any martial arts is pretty much more about getting the job done rather than showing off..WIth the possible exception of Caipoaira. Story goes that Brazilian slaves were planning on breaking free so they developed this combat style to look like a dance so they could practice it under the watchful eyes of guards without getting busted. All the guards thought they were oing were, well, dancing.

*Ends rant/history lesson and snuggles Charline again.* Is it mean to hug an arachnophobe or is it nice since the person in this case is rather evil?

I seen my time of martial arts on the discovery channel and sometimes the history channel to get my knowledge of the arts. I'am so sorry to offfend you with my ignorance and I will fill in more of the blanks with my knowledge of things in general in the future. Anywho Abel has to keep his emotions in check when he is sucker puching Dan or anybody in general. I have a bad feeling that someone else will puch him back and be at higher skill in unarmed combat.

[MT Hazard]

A quick question for everyone, how many of you read all the responses in a topic before posting ?

Just wondering, idle curiosity nothing implied.

[Sid]

A quick question for everyone, how many of you read all the responses in a topic before posting ?

Just wondering, idle curiosity nothing implied.

When the comic in question brings up an interesting aspect or question, I do. For comics like this one, I usually speed-read the posts to get a feeling for the overall tendency of the thread (I later read the posts in detail if I want to check if something very specific has already been mentioned). Always assuming that the thread stays halfway on-topic, of course.

Edit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline.  There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.

Yes, I considered it. And you will notice that I never complained about Abel's horrible tendency to suckerpunch people. Or about Wildy or Fa'Lina going all-out in terms of comic violence. It's just that in this case, it's not just the punchline. It's not just a slapstick motion (sidestepping would have been in the comedy area), it's something that obviously required quite a bit of training, and it gives some plot insight because it's highly likely that Destania taught Abel that. I had not complained about last comic's punchline because I had assumed that it would be more or less inconsequential. Now we see that it's slightly more than that.

Abel is nearly 400 years old.

Abel has, outside the obvious trauma of his youthful life, spent the majority of his time in the SAIA. Where one can learn, as we were shown, a plethora of skills.

And suddenly he's 'overpowered'? As you will, sir.

No offense, but did you actually read what you wrote there? "Abel, a member of a race of magic-using shapeshifters, spent a few centuries studying in a school where one can learn and master all sorts of of skills. But he's not overpowered."

Abel's backstory/explanation is just that. It's not special, and it doesn't make him less overpowered. Every other Mary Sue has a backstory nowadays, and it doesn't make them less annoying.

Compared to the other characters, Abel IS overpowered. Simply BECAUSE he is a 400 year old Cubi who spend possibly 380 of those years inside an academy, apparently studying everything from magic to martial arts, and now is roaming around freely in a world of Beings (or Creatures who stay in low-power mode). Abel may not look overpowered in SAIA, I guess, but compared to the rest of the regular cast, he is. Mab or Pyro (see below) should be able to take him down in a raw fight, but other than that, he's basically untouchable (unless somebody happens to have a bucket of blood handy). Merlitz and Dan couldn't even SCRATCH him, and at least Merlitz definitely tried.

In the same context, Mab technically is overpowered, too. The only thing that keeps her from standing out too much is the fact that she basically never uses her full power (excluding accidents). Her breaking up the fight between Dan and Aary was an overpower-shortcut when you think of it, though. Both her and Pyro definitely have the potential to appear overpowered, but the way they act makes them look more Being-like than Creature-like.

What would people have said if Mab had simply nuked Dark Pegasus and his entire castle in the same way she nuked her old home? Would that make her look overpowered? By your "explanation", she would of course not be overpowered because her backstory explains why she can do it. "Sure, she can and possible will turn mountains into glass craters, but she's not overpowered because there's a valid explanation for it."

Abel just happens to be the most recent cast character, and he's already a better fighter than Merlitz and Dan (*), he's one of the more experienced magic users, and he has mind-reading, emotion-reading/-jamming, shapeshifting (granted, he doesn't exactly love to do it, but he still does it and is apparently quite experienced in it), and possibly some other stuff I forgot.

Granted, none of those are overly new, but this is the first time we actually witness Abel being an experienced fighter (And no, I won't believe that this was just a lucky break - I sure as hell wouldn't be able to do THAT if an enraged adventurer or whoever charged at me!) instead of just relying on cheap shots and magic, as has been hinted at before.

The key factor is the race bit, though. As I wrote elsewhere: "Beings are not your equal. Keep that in mind. You're an Incubus, and that means that you out-everything most Beings. You live longer, you can read minds, you can shapeshift, you can do magic and you can eat emotions and souls." Cubi, compared to Beings, simply are overpowered by definition. Same goes for the Fae/Dragon races, of course. Abel just is the first regular character who actually puts his abilities to use in an environment that's playing in a lower league, so to speak. And that is what makes the difference in my eyes. And it's the reason why I only now made the remark. Abel didn't really have striking weaknesses, he doesn't really hold back, and now he can also throw Dan across the room without breaking a sweat.

...and I appear to be the only one who thinks that that's a bit imbalanced, so I'll just leave it at that.

---

(*) - "Don't knock hemophobia. [...] Pretty much eliminates any usefulness in a fight." <-- Oh yeah, that TOTALLY made him useless while beating Merlitz, suckerpunching two adventurers and a Dragon (in anthro form), AND sneak-attacking Dan in the SAIA arc. Totally useless, sure thing. Knowing my luck, Abel can and will kill people simply by casting something like "Instant Ice Block" around his victim's head - Look, Ma! No blood! Sure, Abel won't last long in a Lord-of-the-Rings sized, epic end fight, but his weakness isn't as hindering as it appears, and he has shown it.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Who the hell wants to learn just Aikido? Take my advice and go for some Jeet Kune Do with that, and you'll have the whole package.

Jeet Kune Do (The Way Of The Intercepting Fist, according to Wikipedia) is, as I understand it, a "hard form" focusing on actual fighting.

Aikido, on the other hand, in "pure form" as I suggested, is a much softer, defensive style of martial art.

Both have their place, but in a pacifist situation, a defensive style is more likely to fit the world-view of the participant. Being able to defend yourself without focusing on breaking your opponent is much more acceptable.

Of course, if you must, being able to take out half a room of people is the end aim, however simply being focused in yourself enough to do it is what I understand Aikido to be aimed at.

You're welcome to disagree, of course. But if there were pacifist Cubi visible in the comic, I'd expect them to be far happier with an Aikido style of defense than a Jun Kune Do.

Dan, I'd see more as a JKD type. :-) If he seriously went all-out, rather than simply getting miffed and swiping once, I mean...

[Arcalane]

Well at least he didn't make the basic mistake of putting his thumb inside his hand when he hit.

"I know they tell ya, you never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

[Zedd]

Be glad no Tae-Kwon-Leep went on in this.....Though this style is more for Wildy...Cause it come out of no where and hits you...breaking you down like a mattered broken chinese housewife

[Tapewolf]

Sid, with due respect, all Abel appears to have done in this strip is a bit of judo rather than anything magical.

Consider that Abel is actually at something of a disadvantage among other 'cubi - his clan is virtually nonexistent and that means than unlike Dan, he has no backing from them whatsoever.  I may be wrong but the way I understand it that means he's pretty minimal in terms of powers.  We don't know what his attitude on soul-stealing is like, but I'm not sure I really see him going for it personally, so no extra boost for him there.

That means that he might be a pretty respectable mage but it's probably a matter of him making the most intelligent use of what powers he does have rather than him being able to cast anything really major (like raising all the dead in the world or shifting the moons around a'la Ultima 6).

He has apparently spent a large amount of time learning from Destania how to do as much as he can alone... which suggests to me that he's trying to compensate for some pretty major gaps, most likely because he's virtually clanless.
Of course that might still leave him as a Mary-Sue among Beings, but I'm not convinced it's for the reasons you're thinking of.

[superluser]

Edit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline.  There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.

Yes, I considered it.

Hey, hey.  I'm on your side.  Abel's unbalanced...er, and overpowered, too.  Note that in this case, it comes at the left hand of what looks like it might have started out as a standard 3-panel comic.

No offense, but did you actually read what you wrote there? "Abel, a member of a race of magic-using shapeshifters, spent a few centuries studying in a school where one can learn and master all sorts of of skills. But he's not overpowered."

As you point out, it all makes sense, but the result is, again, that Abel is too powerful for the people that he deals with on a daily basis.

I will point out (again) that Aary didn't seem overpowered.  I'd lay even odds on either Dan or Merlitz beating her in single combat with the character shields turned off.  Also, Fa'Lina is way too powerful, but since she seems to fill the role as one of the Fates or the Quest-giving guy, and as such, rarely interacts with anyone.

Abel, however, doesn't seem the type to take courses in adventuring when courses on grass-growing, paint-drying and Seurat-appreciation are also available, and he doesn't seem to have spent much time outside of SAIA training to be an adventurer.  After all, he wasn't going to leave the academy anytime soon, and why waste time on courses that you're not going to use?  He might have taken some basic self-defense courses, and that may be what we're seeing here.

Maybe Dan will take Abel out on an adventure, and discover that he's completely useless on offense, and that revelation will come too late, and Dan will have to deal with everything on his own.

Would that balance him?  Prolly not.

(*) - "Don't knock hemophobia. [...] Pretty much eliminates any usefulness in a fight." <-- Oh yeah, that TOTALLY made him useless while beating Merlitz, suckerpunching two adventurers and a Dragon (in anthro form), AND sneak-attacking Dan in the SAIA arc. Totally useless, sure thing.

In a real fight, where your opponents are trying to kill you, all they have to do is cut a finger, and you're done.  You might not even need to see the blood.  From what my brother the doctor told me, it's not so much the blood as the injury.  Hemophobes could be in the Overlook Elevators, so long as the injury is nowhere near them.

The problem is known as vasovagal syncope (and now that I know what it is, I can find out all about it).  What happens is that you see the injury, or the blood associated with the injury, and your vagus nerve tells your blood vessels to dilate and your heart to slow down, lowering blood pressure and causing you to faint.

It's a reaction that doesn't even reach the higher portions of your brain; I don't even know if the vasovagal response can be classically conditioned.  It's a pretty nasty phobia.

[KarlOmega1]

I would hate to have been Dan at that moment...

[Sid]

Edit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline.  There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.

Yes, I considered it.

Hey, hey.  I'm on your side.  Abel's unbalanced...er, and overpowered, too.  Note that in this case, it comes at the left hand of what looks like it might have started out as a standard 3-panel comic.

That's... a very good point, now that you mention it... *mentally blends out the lower 2/3*

The problem is known as vasovagal syncope (and now that I know what it is, I can find out all about it).  What happens is that you see the injury, or the blood associated with the injury, and your vagus nerve tells your blood vessels to dilate and your heart to slow down, lowering blood pressure and causing you to faint.

It's a reaction that doesn't even reach the higher portions of your brain; I don't even know if the vasovagal response can be classically conditioned.  It's a pretty nasty phobia.

Quite interesting, even though I have no idea how it's supposed to work. O.o
Then again, biology is one of my major weak points, so this shouldn't be terribly surprising

[MT Hazard]

Wasn't there something about cubi that walk around with both sets of wings out are usually 'incredibly powerful or massive ego' that includes Arry, just becuase she doesn't chose to use her power doesn't mean its not there. 

He could be of course just be using the power of plot, the power that allows any character to gain (permanently or temporarily) certain powers, abilities, items etc. Like the action hero would can defuse bombs and do stunts on bikes despite being an 'ordinary cop'. As long as these abilities are plot relevant they can happen.

The 'boot to the head' mp3 is Hilarious.

[Aleolus]

Well, Alexsi's rep is going to be ruined anyway, if Dan does nothing, since Dan made the mistake of being racist and critical of Jy saying he had feelings for Abel as well, so him not saying anything is a very bad idea no matter which way you look at it.  But, if he goes to Jy, explains that Alexsi actually got kidnapped and he was just pretending to be her to fool the reporters, then explain that he's not mad and so forth, then everyone wins!

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Abel, however, doesn't seem the type to take courses in adventuring when courses on grass-growing, paint-drying and Seurat-appreciation are also available, and he doesn't seem to have spent much time outside of SAIA training to be an adventurer.  After all, he wasn't going to leave the academy anytime soon, and why waste time on courses that you're not going to use?  He might have taken some basic self-defense courses, and that may be what we're seeing here.

My take on that particular point is that Abel had already -done- every other class, leaving him just the crud at the end, like grass growing, to fill out his time.

After all - he's considered a talented and intelligent Cubi, at least according to his cast page. He's gone through a reasonable timeframe to be at SAIA, and, while there's sure to be more courses he could take, it wouldn't surprise me to find out he's either done them, or has been banned from doing them (see: epic disasters :-)