Wow, Dan tried to fight back, failed, and Abel gave good avice. Dan should now follow up and go after Jy-Jy and explain what happened, as Abel said. Doing nothing or lying more can only make it worse. o.o
I wonder if it will be my friend. Hello wall! *Thud*
Awww, I was hoping the thread would be titled, ``You fight like my mom.''
As for Abel giving good advice, I don't think that Abel truly understands the situation. It's still good advice, but it's wrong. Jyrras will still be angry. Possibly angrier.
Ooh! Maybe Dan will have just explained it to Jyrras when ``The End of the Dragon Race'' happens, and they'll be stuck, fighting off (whatever) together.
Edit:
Quote from: HaZ×MaT on January 09, 2007, 08:39:33 PMI wonder if it will be my friend. Hello wall! *Thud*
It needs a big, wide sounding word, like aaaa-allll...Wall! That's it! Wall!
HazMat FTW. Bwahahahaha!
Of course the actual quote is "I wonder if it will be friends with me." but close enough :-)
Abel is a jerk. He's right, but he's still a jerk. :-)
I find it a little astounding that Abel could do that. Dan's an adventurer, ne? He should have been able to land a decent hit against a guy who hasn't been outside of college for a time period measured in decades.
And Abel giving good advice on something other than basic magical wossnames seems like a more calender-marking-worthy event than Dan being honest.
Quote from: HaZ×MaT on January 09, 2007, 08:39:33 PM
I wonder if it will be my friend. Hello wall! *Thud*
Monster Rancher flashbacks. D:
Dan must not have raised his unarmed combat skill too high. It's all them swords, boy! I mean, they're fun and all... but ya can't always have em.
That and I just know Abel's trying to get Dan out so he can finally have the bar to himself so he can do that classic "sliding across the floor in socks, then dancing in your underwear" thing. He seems the type. Really.
Monster Rancher? Huh? I recall no particular wall issues in that game.
And who isn't that type? It's a lot of fun!
And will I eventually not start a line with a question?
Quote from: Boogeyman on January 09, 2007, 08:52:47 PM
Monster Rancher? Huh? I recall no particular wall issues in that game.
Well I meant the actual wall monsters themselves that were just... walls. >.> But that's off topic, so... comic related stuff.
I had a graffiti once
Y'know, I'm starting to think Abel got his sense of humor/sarcasm from Devin. Only, he usually doesn't lay it on as thick.
And another interesting tidbit, Abel fights like Destania! :U Think it came from the private tuition?
I was thinking the same thing as Abel. He must be quite smart.
Akisohida: true, but what should be done and what dan thinks should be done are usually two completely different things... :mowwink
HaZ×MaT and superluser: *wraps a towel around his head and sticks his thumb up into the air*
He's still lying, he's always hated Abel.
Just another brick.
Quote from: Roureem Egas on January 09, 2007, 09:01:09 PM
Y'know, I'm starting to think Abel got his sense of humor/sarcasm from Devin.
I've noticed that too. My guess is that it has something to do with Devin being the first mind he ever read.
[Begins overanalysis of technicalities and otherwise unrelated data as only a sci-fi geek can] Now, how does the soul consumption thing work? I heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi, and that sorta gets me thinking. Could Abel have taken Devin's soul as a way of "making it up to him"? Keep him alive as a part of Abel or something in exchange for getting him killed by distracting him? That might influence his behavior. Of course, it could be a completely nonmagical explination, such as "He's just a jackass," or "He just tends to act like Devin now." [Overanalysis ends]
Quote from: Roureem Egas on January 09, 2007, 09:01:09 PM
Y'know, I'm starting to think Abel got his sense of humor/sarcasm from Devin. Only, he usually doesn't lay it on as thick.
And another interesting tidbit, Abel fights like Destania! :U Think it came from the private tuition?
I figured it was entirely likely that Abel learned that from Destania. Hmm..."a student I once had a vested interest in"...entirely possible it was private. Never though about that. Perhaps Destania tought Abel how to defend himself from attacks?
Looks like it would have been nice if she left a few teachings with Dan as well.
well lookie there, Abel's actually trying to teach Dan something, now will Dan take that advice, i wonder..
I approve of all this use of blunt trauma. >:3
[insert sexual innuendo about being thrown up against a wall by Abel here] :E
Option one: Whine and hope.
Option two: Hope.
...though I certainly can't blame Abel for wanting to hear less Dan-whining, otherwise, I'm afraid I don't see much difference.
So do all cubi learn a form of judo as part of their education?
Quote from: Manawolf on January 09, 2007, 09:32:46 PM
Looks like it would have been nice if she left a few teachings with Dan as well.
she probably tried they just didn't take
they did with Alexsi though
Well she did have a few years ahead of him, and thus has been mature enough to learn those things longer before Destania left.
*Charline notes* Well, Destania left when Dan was still fairly young. She didn't have much time to teach him. And let us not forget, though a whiny hemophobe who didn't want to sodomized (Bah! It's loads of fun!), Abel was also in the adventuring class and is also 400 years old. I'm quite certain he exceeds Dan's skill levels. Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans. Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing. And our extremely long lives would mean we'd have many being lifetimes to hone our skills! We would become death... the destroyers of worlds... >:3
Dan is just angry at himself.
Quote from: HaZ×MaT on January 09, 2007, 08:39:33 PM
I wonder if it will be my friend. Hello wall! *Thud*
Face, meet wall.
Wall, meet face.
*WHUMP!*[/i]
The feathers coming from Dan as he hits the wall were a nice touch too.
i can't help but wonder . will Dan ever become that calm and assured. in battle.
To paraphase Gir
"Hello wall make me a sandwitch"
Lets see if the route of honesty will keep on going for these nutsiods
Aaryanna treated Dan as a six-year-old. Abel treats Dan like an adult. When he said he respected Dan, he meant it.
:boogie Celebrates the wonderfulness of Abel. :)
With regards,
Ted
Well at least he didn't make the basic mistake of putting his thumb inside his hand when he hit, could of been worse. I get the idea Dan getting very annoyed about having to actually confront his feelings, and those you can't just rush up and kill (I've tried)
On the 'I'm starting to dislike you' front there is a useful phrase for that "If you want to lose a friend, tell them something for their own good"
That may be paraphrased but the essential point is there. Abel's self assigned role of 'Honest jerk' allows him to be a good friend, he forfeits any benefits he might get out of a friendship to help Dan.
Its like the stages of growing up (my own version but still essentially true in many cases)
Stage One: You Know you parents know everything. (birth to 10 ish)
Stage Two: You realise you parents don't know everything (10 ish to 13)
Stage Three: You Know your parents don't know anything. (13-19 ish)
Stage Four: You realise you parents might know something, in fact you go to them for advice... (20+)
Good deal of variety to what extend kids will go though but the above does happen.
Like the friend you stop talking to because he strongly objected to your girlfriend/boyfriend/ lifestyle, true friendship and dare I say it, Love may not be recognised in its own time. Anyone ever hear the Mike and the Mechanics song 'The living years' ?
Quote from: Boogeyman on January 09, 2007, 09:14:23 PM
I heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi, and that sorta gets me thinking. Could Abel have taken Devin's soul as a way of "making it up to him"? Keep him alive as a part of Abel or something in exchange for getting him killed by distracting him? That might influence his behavior.
Now
that I've got to read. Do you know roughly whenabouts that was, and if it was Amber's own theory or someone else's? I'll search the entire archive if need be but a rough pointer would handy... was it since you joined that forum, for instance or the result of searching the archives?
Anyway, as for Abel having done this to Devin, I have my doubts. Even if soul manipulation is an innate 'cubi ability rather than a collection of spells passed down from generation to generation, Abel is almost certainly going to have to learn how to make it work rather than being able to do it instinctively.
Quote from: Tapewolf on January 10, 2007, 05:54:43 AM
Quote from: Boogeyman on January 09, 2007, 09:14:23 PM
I heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi, and that sorta gets me thinking. Could Abel have taken Devin's soul as a way of "making it up to him"? Keep him alive as a part of Abel or something in exchange for getting him killed by distracting him? That might influence his behavior.
Now that I've got to read. Do you know roughly whenabouts that was, and if it was Amber's own theory or someone else's? I'll search the entire archive if need be but a rough pointer would handy... was it since you joined that forum, for instance or the result of searching the archives?
Didn't really dig myself, but it may have been tied to strip 572 (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_572.php), which kinda spawned or fueled the "soul as power" theory... Just my quick guess, though.
Abel deflected an attack from Dan I know that technique is a open palm style of Wu-Shu. Watching enough kung-fu flicks I know some of the styles by the way of blocking and attacking. Abel being sarcastic and being honest I like that. Dan has to make the right choice and tell Jyrass about this and hope that their friendship will not be damage because of this.
You know, I'm noticing that, while Dan is reputedly (and evidently) a master adventurer, his skill is not in unarmed combat. In fact, he needed a spork to defeat the Deathknights.
Quote from: Boogeyman on January 09, 2007, 09:14:23 PMI heard somewhere on the old forums that the soul is trapped as a power source within the cubi
His ovo-pack is the seventh spirit?
Quote from: Alondro on January 09, 2007, 11:27:46 PM
*Charline notes* Well, Destania left when Dan was still fairly young. She didn't have much time to teach him. And let us not forget, though a whiny hemophobe who didn't want to sodomized (Bah! It's loads of fun!), Abel was also in the adventuring class and is also 400 years old. I'm quite certain he exceeds Dan's skill levels. Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans. Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing. And our extremely long lives would mean we'd have many being lifetimes to hone our skills! We would become death... the destroyers of worlds... >:3
*Sneaksneaks up and hugs Charline to stop the tirade about death and doom.* Spider hug! :hug
And ShiningShadow? I would NOT believe movies are a good source of info on martial arts of ANY kind. I took Akido when I was young, Modern Arnis up untill a few years ago, and whatever the heck a place called Vilari's teaches. (Vilari's = The McDonalds of Martial arts; Generic as heck and the classes are everywhere :P ) In all the martial arts I took, I have YET to actually see ANYTHING as flashy as the stuff in movies. Even Modern Arnis, whocs creator (Or should I say, adaptor?) was so recent, my teacher trained under him directly, is not all that flashy.
I guess, what I should say is, movies put too much flash into martial arts; flips, spins, taking out 10 people at once.. Any martial arts is pretty much more about getting the job done rather than showing off..WIth the possible exception of Caipoaira. Story goes that Brazilian slaves were planning on breaking free so they developed this combat style to look like a dance so they could practice it under the watchful eyes of guards without getting busted. All the guards thought they were oing were, well, dancing.
*Ends rant/history lesson and snuggles Charline again.* Is it mean to hug an arachnophobe or is it nice since the person in this case is rather evil? :)
Abel may be right, but he is being a complete and utter jerk. Almost all he's done to Dan since they've met is beat him up. A good slap in the face can help drive home a point, but it's almost starting to seem like Abel enjoys hurting Dan. I have lost much of my respect for him.
*Charline goes cat-atonic in the spider hug, whimpering pitifully* Oh noes... he's gonna suck out my insides! :boggle
*Charles hmphs* Serves you right if he does! Anyway, I hate to agree with Charline, but it does make sense that most adventurers wouldn't stand a chance with anything but the most inexperienced or non-violent cubi. Given what we've seen of Abel's ability with multiple swords, how could a poor adventurer hold up? Imagine an adventurer trying to fight Fa'lina, for instance! Erf... urp... no, on second thought don't imagine that. The adventurer ends up rather... entropic, to put it lightly. :I
Quote from: Alan Garou on January 10, 2007, 08:53:22 AMAbel may be right, but he is being a complete and utter jerk. Almost all he's done to Dan since they've met is beat him up. A good slap in the face can help drive home a point, but it's almost starting to seem like Abel enjoys hurting Dan. I have lost much of my respect for him.
A dope slap is probably not going to leave a mark or kill brain cells, but likely to have the same effect. Abel also seems to enjoy destroying the building. I suspect that Alexsi will not appreciate that, either.
Quote from: Alan Garou on January 10, 2007, 08:53:22 AM
Abel may be right, but he is being a complete and utter jerk. Almost all he's done to Dan since they've met is beat him up. A good slap in the face can help drive home a point, but it's almost starting to seem like Abel enjoys hurting Dan. I have lost much of my respect for him.
The funny thing is that I have more issues with Abel suddenly being able to deflect blows like that. Suckerpunching and over-the-top threats are sort of in line with his jerkitude, but this calm deflection looks... just wrong to me.
Come to think of it, the Cubi we know the most are better in battle than ANY of the regular main cast people. Wasn't one of the Cubi weaknesses that they "tend to be highly inexperienced at battles and highly egotistical... thus often leading them to underestimate their opponents"?
At this rate, I'll move over to the "Abel is overpowered" side. *frowns lightly* Too many obvious advantages, too few disadvantages that actually matter (oh, fear of blood - scary!).
All in all, there's a slight imbalance, judging from what I see right now. In his arc, Abel's life is pure Hell, and in the main comic, he's cocky, element-resistant, magic-using, suckerpunching, mindreading, emotionjamming and experienced in martial arts.
Ah well. We'll see how this ends. Maybe the balancing moment for Abel is just around the corner... o.o
Abel is nearly 400 years old.
Abel has, outside the obvious trauma of his youthful life, spent the majority of his time in the SAIA. Where one can learn, as we were shown, a plethora of skills.
And suddenly he's 'overpowered'? As you will, sir.
Quote from: Sid on January 10, 2007, 09:42:49 AMAt this rate, I'll move over to the "Abel is overpowered" side. *frowns lightly* Too many obvious advantages, too few disadvantages that actually matter (oh, fear of blood - scary!).
Hey! Don't knock hemophobia. You can actually faint because an excessive vasovagal reflex produces bradycardia and orthostatic hypotension. Pretty much eliminates any usefulness in a fight.
Yeah. It looks like somebody just poured all the negatives into one, overpowering weakness at the request of the DM.
Quote from: Sid on January 10, 2007, 09:42:49 AMAll in all, there's a slight imbalance, judging from what I see right now. In his arc, Abel's life is pure Hell, and in the main comic, he's cocky, element-resistant, magic-using, suckerpunching, mindreading, emotionjamming and experienced in martial arts.
Also, don't forget that Aary is older, and seems weaker, and Abel's only field experience in adventuring was one where he spent most of his time either vomiting or in the fetal position.
Edit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline. There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.
Don't say that there isn't, because then I'll have to prove that Abel couldn't have actually performed that move.
Quote from: Alondro on January 09, 2007, 11:27:46 PM
Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans. Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing.
I beg to differ. At least some of the pacifists would be interested in exercise, and spending a couple hundred years focusing on aikido, in the pure form, is likely to make you -very- hard to kill.
I really should see if I can find a sensei around here to start learning aikido off...
Who the hell wants to learn just Aikido? Take my advice and go for some Jeet Kune Do with that, and you'll have the whole package.
I don't see how the good Mrs. Williams would have thought that Abel would have moved though. He'd have to spin around for that one, and Abel's posture is kinda... Well, I don't know. And is it just me, or does Dan seem two seconds from crying in that first panel...?
Oh, and Charline... Don't struggle. Just be happy it's not a female spider and try not to squirm too much when he makes a spring roll of you... *Stygian looks serious, but then grins*
Quote from: Janus Whitefurr on January 10, 2007, 10:04:32 AM
Abel is nearly 400 years old.
Abel has, outside the obvious trauma of his youthful life, spent the majority of his time in the SAIA. Where one can learn, as we were shown, a plethora of skills.
And suddenly he's 'overpowered'? As you will, sir.
He's going to turn into Super Saiyan 3 any time now; I'm sure of it!
Then
Majin Buu Regina will attack and they will have a fight to the death which isn't to the death because Lorenda, Dan and Jyrras convince Abel to make a wish that Regina become good!
THE WORLD IS SAFE AGAIN, ALL THANKS TO THE Z-FIGHTERS. HOORAY!
Quote from: Akisohida on January 10, 2007, 08:42:23 AM
Quote from: Alondro on January 09, 2007, 11:27:46 PM
*Charline notes* Well, Destania left when Dan was still fairly young. She didn't have much time to teach him. And let us not forget, though a whiny hemophobe who didn't want to sodomized (Bah! It's loads of fun!), Abel was also in the adventuring class and is also 400 years old. I'm quite certain he exceeds Dan's skill levels. Which also leads me to note that the only cubi an adventurer would easily defeat is one from the pacifist clans or a young cubi of the savage clans. Any of those cubi who are truly wicked, like myself, would have devoted ourselves to the perfection of the art of killing. And our extremely long lives would mean we'd have many being lifetimes to hone our skills! We would become death... the destroyers of worlds... >:3
*Sneaksneaks up and hugs Charline to stop the tirade about death and doom.* Spider hug! :hug
And ShiningShadow? I would NOT believe movies are a good source of info on martial arts of ANY kind. I took Akido when I was young, Modern Arnis up untill a few years ago, and whatever the heck a place called Vilari's teaches. (Vilari's = The McDonalds of Martial arts; Generic as heck and the classes are everywhere :P ) In all the martial arts I took, I have YET to actually see ANYTHING as flashy as the stuff in movies. Even Modern Arnis, whocs creator (Or should I say, adaptor?) was so recent, my teacher trained under him directly, is not all that flashy.
I guess, what I should say is, movies put too much flash into martial arts; flips, spins, taking out 10 people at once.. Any martial arts is pretty much more about getting the job done rather than showing off..WIth the possible exception of Caipoaira. Story goes that Brazilian slaves were planning on breaking free so they developed this combat style to look like a dance so they could practice it under the watchful eyes of guards without getting busted. All the guards thought they were oing were, well, dancing.
*Ends rant/history lesson and snuggles Charline again.* Is it mean to hug an arachnophobe or is it nice since the person in this case is rather evil? :)
I seen my time of martial arts on the discovery channel and sometimes the history channel to get my knowledge of the arts. I'am so sorry to offfend you with my ignorance and I will fill in more of the blanks with my knowledge of things in general in the future. Anywho Abel has to keep his emotions in check when he is sucker puching Dan or anybody in general. I have a bad feeling that someone else will puch him back and be at higher skill in unarmed combat.
A quick question for everyone, how many of you read all the responses in a topic before posting ?
Just wondering, idle curiosity nothing implied.
Quote from: MT Hazard on January 10, 2007, 12:53:35 PM
A quick question for everyone, how many of you read all the responses in a topic before posting ?
Just wondering, idle curiosity nothing implied.
When the comic in question brings up an interesting aspect or question, I do. For comics like this one, I usually speed-read the posts to get a feeling for the overall tendency of the thread (I later read the posts in detail if I want to check if something very specific has already been mentioned). Always assuming that the thread stays halfway on-topic, of course.
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 10:07:53 AM
Edit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline. There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.
Yes, I considered it. And you will notice that I never complained about Abel's horrible tendency to suckerpunch people. Or about Wildy or Fa'Lina going all-out in terms of comic violence. It's just that in this case, it's not just the punchline. It's not just a slapstick motion (sidestepping would have been in the comedy area), it's something that obviously required quite a bit of training, and it gives some plot insight because it's highly likely that Destania taught Abel that. I had not complained about last comic's punchline because I had assumed that it would be more or less inconsequential. Now we see that it's slightly more than that.
Quote from: Janus Whitefurr on January 10, 2007, 10:04:32 AM
Abel is nearly 400 years old.
Abel has, outside the obvious trauma of his youthful life, spent the majority of his time in the SAIA. Where one can learn, as we were shown, a plethora of skills.
And suddenly he's 'overpowered'? As you will, sir.
No offense, but did you actually read what you wrote there? "Abel, a member of a race of magic-using shapeshifters, spent a few centuries studying in a school where one can learn and master all sorts of of skills. But he's not overpowered."
Abel's backstory/explanation is just that. It's not special, and it doesn't make him less overpowered. Every other Mary Sue has a backstory nowadays, and it doesn't make them less annoying.
Compared to the other characters, Abel IS overpowered. Simply BECAUSE he is a 400 year old Cubi who spend possibly 380 of those years inside an academy, apparently studying everything from magic to martial arts, and now is roaming around freely in a world of Beings (or Creatures who stay in low-power mode). Abel may not look overpowered in SAIA, I guess, but compared to the rest of the regular cast, he is. Mab or Pyro (see below) should be able to take him down in a raw fight, but other than that, he's basically untouchable (unless somebody happens to have a bucket of blood handy). Merlitz and Dan couldn't even SCRATCH him, and at least Merlitz definitely tried.
In the same context, Mab technically is overpowered, too. The only thing that keeps her from standing out too much is the fact that she basically never uses her full power (excluding accidents). Her breaking up the fight between Dan and Aary was an overpower-shortcut when you think of it, though. Both her and Pyro definitely have the potential to appear overpowered, but the way they act makes them look more Being-like than Creature-like.
What would people have said if Mab had simply nuked Dark Pegasus and his entire castle in the same way she nuked her old home? Would that make her look overpowered? By your "explanation", she would of course not be overpowered because her backstory explains why she can do it. "Sure, she can and possible will turn mountains into glass craters, but she's not overpowered because there's a valid explanation for it."
Abel just happens to be the most recent cast character, and he's already a better fighter than Merlitz and Dan (*), he's one of the more experienced magic users, and he has mind-reading, emotion-reading/-jamming, shapeshifting (granted, he doesn't exactly love to do it, but he still does it and is apparently quite experienced in it), and possibly some other stuff I forgot.
Granted, none of those are overly new, but this is the first time we actually witness Abel being an experienced fighter (And no, I won't believe that this was just a lucky break - I sure as hell wouldn't be able to do THAT if an enraged adventurer or whoever charged at me!) instead of just relying on cheap shots and magic, as has been hinted at before.
The key factor is the race bit, though. As I wrote elsewhere: "Beings are not your equal. Keep that in mind. You're an Incubus, and that means that you out-everything most Beings. You live longer, you can read minds, you can shapeshift, you can do magic and you can eat emotions and souls." Cubi, compared to Beings, simply are overpowered by definition. Same goes for the Fae/Dragon races, of course. Abel just is the first regular character who actually puts his abilities to use in an environment that's playing in a lower league, so to speak. And
that is what makes the difference in my eyes. And it's the reason why I only now made the remark. Abel didn't really have striking weaknesses, he doesn't really hold back, and now he can also throw Dan across the room without breaking a sweat.
...and I appear to be the only one who thinks that that's a bit imbalanced, so I'll just leave it at that.
---
(*) - "Don't knock hemophobia. [...] Pretty much eliminates any usefulness in a fight." <-- Oh yeah, that TOTALLY made him useless while beating Merlitz, suckerpunching two adventurers and a Dragon (in anthro form), AND sneak-attacking Dan in the SAIA arc. Totally useless, sure thing. Knowing my luck, Abel can and will kill people simply by casting something like "Instant Ice Block" around his victim's head - Look, Ma! No blood! Sure, Abel won't last long in a Lord-of-the-Rings sized, epic end fight, but his weakness isn't as hindering as it appears, and he has shown it.
Quote from: Stygian on January 10, 2007, 11:51:35 AM
Who the hell wants to learn just Aikido? Take my advice and go for some Jeet Kune Do with that, and you'll have the whole package.
Jeet Kune Do (The Way Of The Intercepting Fist, according to Wikipedia) is, as I understand it, a "hard form" focusing on actual fighting.
Aikido, on the other hand, in "pure form" as I suggested, is a much softer, defensive style of martial art.
Both have their place, but in a pacifist situation, a defensive style is more likely to fit the world-view of the participant. Being able to defend yourself without focusing on breaking your opponent is much more acceptable.
Of course, if you must, being able to take out half a room of people is the end aim, however simply being focused in yourself enough to do it is what I understand Aikido to be aimed at.
You're welcome to disagree, of course. But if there were pacifist Cubi visible in the comic, I'd expect them to be far happier with an Aikido style of defense than a Jun Kune Do.
Dan, I'd see more as a JKD type. :-) If he seriously went all-out, rather than simply getting miffed and swiping once, I mean...
Quote from: MT Hazard on January 10, 2007, 04:30:17 AM
Well at least he didn't make the basic mistake of putting his thumb inside his hand when he hit.
"I know they tell ya, you never hit a man with a closed fist, but it is, on occasion, hilarious."
Be glad no Tae-Kwon-Leep (http://beagleweb.com/fun-taekwanleap.html) went on in this.....Though this style is more for Wildy...Cause it come out of no where and hits you...breaking you down like a mattered broken chinese housewife
Sid, with due respect, all Abel appears to have done in this strip is a bit of judo rather than anything magical.
Consider that Abel is actually at something of a disadvantage among other 'cubi - his clan is virtually nonexistent and that means than unlike Dan, he has no backing from them whatsoever. I may be wrong but the way I understand it that means he's pretty minimal in terms of powers. We don't know what his attitude on soul-stealing is like, but I'm not sure I really see him going for it personally, so no extra boost for him there.
That means that he might be a pretty respectable mage but it's probably a matter of him making the most intelligent use of what powers he does have rather than him being able to cast anything really major (like raising all the dead in the world or shifting the moons around a'la Ultima 6).
He has apparently spent a large amount of time learning from Destania how to do as much as he can alone... which suggests to me that he's trying to compensate for some pretty major gaps, most likely because he's virtually clanless.
Of course that might still leave him as a Mary-Sue among Beings, but I'm not convinced it's for the reasons you're thinking of.
Quote from: Sid on January 10, 2007, 02:13:47 PMQuote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 10:07:53 AMEdit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline. There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.
Yes, I considered it.
Hey, hey. I'm on your side. Abel's unbalanced...er, and overpowered, too. Note that in this case, it comes at the left hand of what looks like it might have started out as a standard 3-panel comic.
Quote from: Sid on January 10, 2007, 02:13:47 PMNo offense, but did you actually read what you wrote there? "Abel, a member of a race of magic-using shapeshifters, spent a few centuries studying in a school where one can learn and master all sorts of of skills. But he's not overpowered."
As you point out, it all makes sense, but the result is, again, that Abel is too powerful for the people that he deals with on a daily basis.
I will point out (again) that Aary didn't seem overpowered. I'd lay even odds on either Dan or Merlitz beating her in single combat with the character shields turned off. Also, Fa'Lina is way too powerful, but since she seems to fill the role as one of the Fates or the Quest-giving guy, and as such, rarely interacts with anyone.
Abel, however, doesn't seem the type to take courses in adventuring when courses on grass-growing, paint-drying and Seurat-appreciation are also available, and he doesn't seem to have spent much time outside of SAIA training to be an adventurer. After all, he wasn't going to leave the academy anytime soon, and why waste time on courses that you're not going to use? He might have taken some basic self-defense courses, and that may be what we're seeing here.
Maybe Dan will take Abel out on an adventure, and discover that he's completely useless on offense, and that revelation will come too late, and Dan will have to deal with everything on his own.
Would that balance him? Prolly not.
Quote from: Sid on January 10, 2007, 02:13:47 PM(*) - "Don't knock hemophobia. [...] Pretty much eliminates any usefulness in a fight." <-- Oh yeah, that TOTALLY made him useless while beating Merlitz, suckerpunching two adventurers and a Dragon (in anthro form), AND sneak-attacking Dan in the SAIA arc. Totally useless, sure thing.
In a real fight, where your opponents are trying to kill you, all they have to do is cut a finger, and you're done. You might not even need to see the blood. From what my brother the doctor told me, it's not so much the blood as the injury. Hemophobes could be in the Overlook Elevators, so long as the injury is nowhere near them.
The problem is known as vasovagal syncope (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vasovagal-syncope/DS00806) (and now that I know what it is, I can find out all about it). What happens is that you see the injury, or the blood associated with the injury, and your vagus nerve tells your blood vessels to dilate and your heart to slow down, lowering blood pressure and causing you to faint.
It's a reaction that doesn't even reach the higher portions of your brain; I don't even know if the vasovagal response can be classically conditioned. It's a pretty nasty phobia.
I would hate to have been Dan at that moment...
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 03:55:30 PM
Quote from: Sid on January 10, 2007, 02:13:47 PMQuote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 10:07:53 AMEdit: I think we're missing the most important point of all of this--that it's supposed to be a punchline. There has to be some allowance for comicky-things to happen in a comic.
Yes, I considered it.
Hey, hey. I'm on your side. Abel's unbalanced...er, and overpowered, too. Note that in this case, it comes at the left hand of what looks like it might have started out as a standard 3-panel comic.
That's... a very good point, now that you mention it... *mentally blends out the lower 2/3*
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 03:55:30 PM
The problem is known as vasovagal syncope (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vasovagal-syncope/DS00806) (and now that I know what it is, I can find out all about it). What happens is that you see the injury, or the blood associated with the injury, and your vagus nerve tells your blood vessels to dilate and your heart to slow down, lowering blood pressure and causing you to faint.
It's a reaction that doesn't even reach the higher portions of your brain; I don't even know if the vasovagal response can be classically conditioned. It's a pretty nasty phobia.
Quite interesting, even though I have no idea how it's supposed to work. O.o
Then again, biology is one of my major weak points, so this shouldn't be terribly surprising xD
Wasn't there something about cubi that walk around with both sets of wings out are usually 'incredibly powerful or massive ego' that includes Arry, just becuase she doesn't chose to use her power doesn't mean its not there.
He could be of course just be using the power of plot, the power that allows any character to gain (permanently or temporarily) certain powers, abilities, items etc. Like the action hero would can defuse bombs and do stunts on bikes despite being an 'ordinary cop'. As long as these abilities are plot relevant they can happen.
The 'boot to the head' mp3 is Hilarious.
Well, Alexsi's rep is going to be ruined anyway, if Dan does nothing, since Dan made the mistake of being racist and critical of Jy saying he had feelings for Abel as well, so him not saying anything is a very bad idea no matter which way you look at it. But, if he goes to Jy, explains that Alexsi actually got kidnapped and he was just pretending to be her to fool the reporters, then explain that he's not mad and so forth, then everyone wins!
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 03:55:30 PM
Abel, however, doesn't seem the type to take courses in adventuring when courses on grass-growing, paint-drying and Seurat-appreciation are also available, and he doesn't seem to have spent much time outside of SAIA training to be an adventurer. After all, he wasn't going to leave the academy anytime soon, and why waste time on courses that you're not going to use? He might have taken some basic self-defense courses, and that may be what we're seeing here.
My take on that particular point is that Abel had already -done- every other class, leaving him just the crud at the end, like grass growing, to fill out his time.
After all - he's considered a talented and intelligent Cubi, at least according to his cast page. He's gone through a reasonable timeframe to be at SAIA, and, while there's sure to be more courses he could take, it wouldn't surprise me to find out he's either done them, or has been banned from doing them (see: epic disasters :-)
Quote from: MT Hazard on January 10, 2007, 05:12:35 PMWasn't there something about cubi that walk around with both sets of wings out are usually 'incredibly powerful or massive ego' that includes Arry, just becuase she doesn't chose to use her power doesn't mean its not there.
really powerful or horribly stupid with blatent (sic) ego (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_620.php)
I'm going for horribly stupid, myself. She doesn't seem that powerful.
Quote from: MT Hazard on January 10, 2007, 05:12:35 PMHe could be of course just be using the power of plot, the power that allows any character to gain (permanently or temporarily) certain powers, abilities, items etc. Like the action hero would can defuse bombs and do stunts on bikes despite being an 'ordinary cop'. As long as these abilities are plot relevant they can happen.
Yes. It's called Mary Sue-ing. It's not a literary technique commonly associated with good writing. It makes these characters essentially invulnerable, and uninteresting. Now, I'm not going as far as to say that Abel is a Mary Sue, but he is pretty clearly overpowered.
// whack! //
Hey, it likes me!
after being really stupid about what he says- does anyone think dan will be smart enough to bring a big box of chocolates when he sees jyrras?
QuoteB, b, but inertia is my friend...
DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something :P ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be :)
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 09:11:14 PM
DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something :P ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be :)
an overpowered individual with a phobia of blood. >:3
Quote from: Turnsky on January 10, 2007, 09:13:22 PM
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 09:11:14 PM
DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something :P ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be :)
an overpowered individual with a phobia of blood. >:3
Even Achilles had a heel...or something close to that.
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 09:11:14 PMDMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something :P ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be :)
The characters are not archetypes or stock characters. Even if they were intended to be, they're not. I know when an archetype is staring me in the face, and all of these characters (except maybe Pip or a couple others) are much more robust.
Abel's not the grumpy hermit. That's Fa'Lina.
Quote from: HeroZero on January 10, 2007, 09:15:19 PMEven Achilles had a heel...or something close to that.
Achilles was dipped into the river Styx shortly after he was born. It made him invulnerable everywhere the water touched. His mother was holding him by the heel, so his heel was still vulnerable.
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 09:28:39 PM
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 09:11:14 PMDMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something :P ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be :)
The characters are not archetypes or stock characters. Even if they were intended to be, they're not. I know when an archetype is staring me in the face, and all of these characters (except maybe Pip or a couple others) are much more robust.
Abel's not the grumpy hermit. That's Fa'Lina.
Following an archetype is not a bad thing. Read any "How to" on story writing and it explains the archetypes and how to use them to create a better character that is easier for readers to relate to.
A stock character, on the other hand, is a bad thing because it
is the archetype and I am not calling Abel a stock character.
And since when was Fa'lina grumpy? If anything, she is the eccentric ruler.
I'm also getting tired with you people going on and on about how the cubis in the story (or even your own cubi characters) are so uber because they've had several centuries to learn everything from wielding 8 swords at once to shooting lightning out their ass. Frankly, it's getting old, and the fan characters are even older and also horrible Mary Sues.
I used to think I was a fanboy of Amber, but you lot show that there are even deeper levels of fan geekdom. This doesn't apply to all of you, but if you're trying to come up with an excuse as to why your 500 year old cubi character isn't a Mary Sue after reading this, I'm afraid you are one of the people included.
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 09:28:39 PM
Quote from: HeroZero on January 10, 2007, 09:15:19 PMEven Achilles had a heel...or something close to that.
Achilles was dipped into the river Styx shortly after he was born. It made him invulnerable everywhere the water touched. His mother was holding him by the heel, so his heel was still vulnerable.
That's how I heard it. Anyway, my point was that even the most amazing characters can have a seemingly 'so lame it's silly' type of weakness.
Besides, I don't really remember seeing Abel in a fight with someone his size before. He may just be good at hand to hand.
Also, I've never quite liked tons of fan characters that are somehow the best ever without doing anything, but I think they're a universal thing. My theory is that it's what the person wished they could be.
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 09:47:23 PMFollowing an archetype is not a bad thing. Read any "How to" on story writing and it explains the archetypes and how to use them to create a better character that is easier for readers to relate to.
A stock character, on the other hand, is a bad thing because it is the archetype and I am not calling Abel a stock character.
I never said that archetypes (or stock characters, for that matter) are bad things. They can be good, too. Gandalf the Grey is quite clearly an archetype; so are Beowulf, Othello, Pierce Inverarity, Number Six, &c.
The point here is that the authors know that they are archetypes, and do nothing to disguise that fact, but the story goes on around them. The interesting bits of the story don't come from those characters, but from other elements of the story, possibly even just what the archetypical characters do.
Again, I have nothing against stock characters per se--they can be quite useful. The Butler and Peter Swanwick in The Prisoner were such stock characters, but they weren't bad characters. In fact, had they been more unique characters or had they been removed, it would have detracted from the story.
It all depends on the story.
Edit:
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 09:47:23 PMAnd since when was Fa'lina grumpy? If anything, she is the eccentric ruler.
Oh, she's (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_541.php) plenty (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_428.php) grumpy (http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_425.php).
Besides, the role of eccentric ruler is already taken by Biggs and Mab.
We like to call that a Strawman Argument (or something, I'm too lazy to look it up).
I said that Abel follows an archetypes
You said that the DMFA characters do not follow archetypes
I said that archetypes are not bad things, reinforcing my initial statement
You agree that archetpes are not bad
But you have not, in any way, proven your argument that the characters in DMFA do not follow archetypes.
Quote from: Manawolf on January 10, 2007, 09:48:51 PM
I'm also getting tired with you people going on and on about how the cubis in the story (or even your own cubi characters) are so uber because they've had several centuries to learn everything from wielding 8 swords at once to shooting lightning out their ass. Frankly, it's getting old, and the fan characters are even older and also horrible Mary Sues.
I used to think I was a fanboy of Amber, but you lot show that there are even deeper levels of fan geekdom. This doesn't apply to all of you, but if you're trying to come up with an excuse as to why your 500 year old cubi character isn't a Mary Sue after reading this, I'm afraid you are one of the people included.
i've seen worse attempts at mary sue characters, believe me.
on a serious note, Cubi seem to be just as powerful as everybody else, and from what i've seen. just as mortal.
their lifespan might be up to 9000 years, but that's only if they play their cards right..
i mean, a mow is more indestructable than a cubi, for pete's sake!
there's other various critters on furrae of more or less ability than cubi, if you ask me.
look at it this way, Powerful as Abel is potentially capable of, Alexsi scares him..
as for people playing a character some 500 years+, i've yet to meet a person who can do over 200 years worth of accumulated knowledge. :)
I do have a dragon character over that age, but then again that was only last time I checked, and I'm still ironing out all the details on him. Frankly as long as you people stop god moding on abilities, they will register acceptable on my Mary Sue-o-meter. However, one of you has kept the act up so long that it's older than dirt, and should be under six feet of that dirt already.
Man Abel is good at not using swords in a fight ^ ^; He can become good at stunning blows if he gets the right teacher to avoid making a person bleed.
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 10:27:41 PMWe like to call that a Strawman Argument (or something, I'm too lazy to look it up).
That's the proper term, but it's not an accurate description.
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 10:27:41 PMI said that Abel follows an archetypes
You said that the DMFA characters do not follow archetypes
I said that archetypes are not bad things, reinforcing my initial statement
You agree that archetpes are not bad
But you have not, in any way, proven your argument that the characters in DMFA do not follow archetypes.
I didn't know that you wanted me to. OK. Resolved: that Abel follows the grumpy hermit archetype. I'll take the negative position.
The grumpy hermit archetype (a subset of the wise old man Jungian archetype, and probably better described as the curmudgeonly hermit archetype--feel free to dispute this, I'll probably roll over) does not apply to Abel.
While Abel is antisocial, he is no hermit. He lived with hundreds, if not thousands of peers. The point of being a hermit in such an archetype is that you gain strength from your ascetism, and from the time spent in meditation with yourself/the higher powers. He may have done a lot of meditation while he was in grass growing, but he doesn't seem the meditating type. He doesn't seem terribly ascetic (though he may be a teetotaller), either.
His powers, while exceptional and unbalancing, are far, far less powerful than what we expect from the grumpy old hermit archetype. They're much less powerful than--say--Destania and Fa'Lina. He's not that old, especially compared to some of his peers (Aary is older than him, and she's not that old for a succubus, and he was pinned down by a dragon despite having gotten the drop on him). While Abel is grumpy (and certainly curmudgeonly), he only tends to be that on occasion.
I never said he was old. Now that is a strawman argument.
Hermit merely represent Abel's preference to not have friends and his discomfort in places he is unfamiliar with.
And grumpy people are actually rather nice. It is merely a front they put on to make others uncomfortable and scare them off, preventing them from prying into their lives. They have often suffered a tragic past that makes them feel unwelcomed or unwanted by others.
Quote from: superluser on January 10, 2007, 11:18:27 PM
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 10:27:41 PMWe like to call that a Strawman Argument (or something, I'm too lazy to look it up).
That's the proper term, but it's not an accurate description.
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 10:27:41 PMI said that Abel follows an archetypes
You said that the DMFA characters do not follow archetypes
I said that archetypes are not bad things, reinforcing my initial statement
You agree that archetpes are not bad
But you have not, in any way, proven your argument that the characters in DMFA do not follow archetypes.
I didn't know that you wanted me to. OK. Resolved: that Abel follows the grumpy hermit archetype. I'll take the negative position.
The grumpy hermit archetype (a subset of the wise old man Jungian archetype, and probably better described as the curmudgeonly hermit archetype--feel free to dispute this, I'll probably roll over) does not apply to Abel.
While Abel is antisocial, he is no hermit. He lived with hundreds, if not thousands of peers. The point of being a hermit in such an archetype is that you gain strength from your ascetism, and from the time spent in meditation with yourself/the higher powers. He may have done a lot of meditation while he was in grass growing, but he doesn't seem the meditating type. He doesn't seem terribly ascetic (though he may be a teetotaller), either.
His powers, while exceptional and unbalancing, are far, far less powerful than what we expect from the grumpy old hermit archetype. They're much less powerful than--say--Destania and Fa'Lina. He's not that old, especially compared to some of his peers (Aary is older than him, and she's not that old for a succubus, and he was pinned down by a dragon despite having gotten the drop on him). While Abel is grumpy (and certainly curmudgeonly), he only tends to be that on occasion.
Hrm, i just had a thought..
While Fa'Lina paired Abel up with Dan so that Dan could learn all the cubi basics from him, maybe Fa'Lina wants Abel to learn something in Return from Dan, Too, whether it's something soppy like the value of friendship, social graces, or just how to get real good at DDR. >:3
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 11:51:28 PMI never said he was old. Now that is a strawman argument.
OK. Fair enough. I thought you did, but I was wrong. I'm sorry.
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 11:51:28 PMHermit merely represent Abel's preference to not have friends and his discomfort in places he is unfamiliar with.
And grumpy people are actually rather nice. It is merely a front they put on to make others uncomfortable and scare them off, preventing them from prying into their lives. They have often suffered a tragic past that makes them feel unwelcomed or unwanted by others.
I think that's a different archetype. Say, the Holden Caulfield archetype? It actually fits pretty well, since Abel seems to see himself as a sort of catcher in the rye. I'm not sure that that's really an archetype, though. More of a stereotype.
Dan keeps loosing feathers.... I donno how he still has any left. :p
Quote from: Grenn on January 11, 2007, 01:33:02 AM
Dan keeps loosing feathers.... I donno how he still has any left. :p
superglue
after this many comics dan is more superglue then cat.
*ponders if dan should bring flowers to jyjy too, or if that would be too much*
QuoteThe force is like duct tape, it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together
Quote from: Grenn on January 11, 2007, 01:33:02 AM
Dan keeps loosing feathers.... I donno how he still has any left. :p
just like foghorn leghorn, he either has a spare set, or keeps his numbered for just such emergencies. :D
Quote from: superluser on January 11, 2007, 01:10:54 AM
Quote from: Kasarn on January 10, 2007, 11:51:28 PMHermit merely represent Abel's preference to not have friends and his discomfort in places he is unfamiliar with.
And grumpy people are actually rather nice. It is merely a front they put on to make others uncomfortable and scare them off, preventing them from prying into their lives. They have often suffered a tragic past that makes them feel unwelcomed or unwanted by others.
I think that's a different archetype. Say, the Holden Caulfield archetype? It actually fits pretty well, since Abel seems to see himself as a sort of catcher in the rye. I'm not sure that that's really an archetype, though. More of a stereotype.
Near as I can tell, stereotypes apply to groups where an archetype applies to the individual. We use well known characters to represent common archetypes because are... uh... common and well known :)
Unsurprisingly, I have never read the Catcher In The Rye (because I english r fail at lol) so I can't really comment on that comparison.
Character types in general are difficult to avoid since everything's been written and remade to death. The fact that the human population is reaching a point wherein everything is cliche doesn't help either.
Complaining about cliches is also cliche, and is also cliche, and is also cliche--
So what makes these characters any less good?
Quote from: Ink on January 11, 2007, 03:47:27 AM
Character types in general are difficult to avoid since everything's been written and remade to death. The fact that the human population is reaching a point wherein everything is cliche doesn't help either.
Complaining about cliches is also cliche, and is also cliche, and is also cliche--
So what makes these characters any less good?
Does eatable fit the bill?
yummy yummy yummy i got dan in my tummy and i feel like a daning you....or something.
sleep deprevation usually means the only charicter you understand is lor and pip
hehe, piplor...
QuoteLet me know when the walls stop bleeding
Quote from: Ink on January 11, 2007, 03:47:27 AM
Character types in general are difficult to avoid since everything's been written and remade to death. The fact that the human population is reaching a point wherein everything is cliche doesn't help either.
Complaining about cliches is also cliche, and is also cliche, and is also cliche--
So what makes these characters any less good?
Character types may be, but you've also got to mind the conteeeeeext... *
Says in a sing-song voice and dangles upside down in the dark ceiling, over the doctor*
Well. Yes. That brings it to the point of that statement. You're looking at the bulk, not the conclusion.
Quote from: Roureem Egas on January 09, 2007, 09:01:09 PM
Y'know, I'm starting to think Abel got his sense of humor/sarcasm from Devin. Only, he usually doesn't lay it on as thick.
Actually, I was thinking the exact same thing. I'm also starting to think that Abel may've taken Devin's speech about moving on to heart, as in maybe he used that bit of advice to move on from his experiences in the past.
Putting that bit of speculation aside, I'm a bit impressed with Abel's advice to Dan, and I couldn't help but laugh at the punchline. XD Am I the only one who finds Dan adorable in the second to last panel, what with the big eyes and the awkward, remorseful expression on his face? Anyone?
~Keaton the Black Jackal
Dan will do the right thing and tell Jyrass everything. I know Jyrass will get so angry at Dan he will not speak to him for days or maybe months. Well that's the price you pay for lying towards your best friend. If I know Dan he will do the right thing regardless.