1-10-07 Meet The Wall

[superluser]

Wasn't there something about cubi that walk around with both sets of wings out are usually 'incredibly powerful or massive ego' that includes Arry, just becuase she doesn't chose to use her power doesn't mean its not there.

really powerful or horribly stupid with blatent (sic) ego

I'm going for horribly stupid, myself.  She doesn't seem that powerful.

He could be of course just be using the power of plot, the power that allows any character to gain (permanently or temporarily) certain powers, abilities, items etc. Like the action hero would can defuse bombs and do stunts on bikes despite being an 'ordinary cop'. As long as these abilities are plot relevant they can happen.

Yes.  It's called Mary Sue-ing.  It's not a literary technique commonly associated with good writing.  It makes these characters essentially invulnerable, and uninteresting.  Now, I'm not going as far as to say that Abel is a Mary Sue, but he is pretty clearly overpowered.

[Blast]

// whack! //

Hey, it likes me!

[Brunhidden]

after being really stupid about what he says- does anyone think dan will be smart enough to bring a big box of chocolates when he sees jyrras?

B, b, but inertia is my friend...

[Kasarn]

DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be

[Turnsky]

DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be

an overpowered individual with a phobia of blood. 

[Distracting]

DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be

an overpowered individual with a phobia of blood. 

Even Achilles had a heel...or something close to that.

[superluser]

DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be

The characters are not archetypes or stock characters.  Even if they were intended to be, they're not.  I know when an archetype is staring me in the face, and all of these characters (except maybe Pip or a couple others) are much more robust.

Abel's not the grumpy hermit.  That's Fa'Lina.

Even Achilles had a heel...or something close to that.

Achilles was dipped into the river Styx shortly after he was born.  It made him invulnerable everywhere the water touched.  His mother was holding him by the heel, so his heel was still vulnerable.

[Kasarn]

DMFA is a light-hearted fantasy story and so the main characters are extraordinary and fill an archetype.
Abel is overpowered because he's, like, the grumpy hermit who has great knowledge (or something ).
Don't over analyse it because it's not supposed to be

The characters are not archetypes or stock characters.  Even if they were intended to be, they're not.  I know when an archetype is staring me in the face, and all of these characters (except maybe Pip or a couple others) are much more robust.

Abel's not the grumpy hermit.  That's Fa'Lina.

Following an archetype is not a bad thing. Read any "How to" on story writing and it explains the archetypes and how to use them to create a better character that is easier for readers to relate to.
A stock character, on the other hand, is a bad thing because it is the archetype and I am not calling Abel a stock character.

And since when was Fa'lina grumpy? If anything, she is the eccentric ruler.

[Manawolf]

I'm also getting tired with you people going on and on about how the cubis in the story (or even your own cubi characters) are so uber because they've had several centuries to learn everything from wielding 8 swords at once to shooting lightning out their ass.  Frankly, it's getting old, and the fan characters are even older and also horrible Mary Sues.

I used to think I was a fanboy of Amber, but you lot show that there are even deeper levels of fan geekdom.  This doesn't apply to all of you, but if you're trying to come up with an excuse as to why your 500 year old cubi character isn't a Mary Sue after reading this, I'm afraid you are one of the people included.

[Distracting]

Even Achilles had a heel...or something close to that.

Achilles was dipped into the river Styx shortly after he was born.  It made him invulnerable everywhere the water touched.  His mother was holding him by the heel, so his heel was still vulnerable.

That's how I heard it. Anyway, my point was that even the most amazing characters can have a seemingly 'so lame it's silly' type of weakness.
Besides, I don't really remember seeing Abel in a fight with someone his size before. He may just be good at hand to hand.

Also, I've never quite liked tons of fan characters that are somehow the best ever without doing anything, but I think they're a universal thing. My theory is that it's what the person wished they could be.

[superluser]

Following an archetype is not a bad thing. Read any "How to" on story writing and it explains the archetypes and how to use them to create a better character that is easier for readers to relate to.
A stock character, on the other hand, is a bad thing because it is the archetype and I am not calling Abel a stock character.

I never said that archetypes (or stock characters, for that matter) are bad things.  They can be good, too.  Gandalf the Grey is quite clearly an archetype; so are Beowulf, Othello, Pierce Inverarity, Number Six, &c.

The point here is that the authors know that they are archetypes, and do nothing to disguise that fact, but the story goes on around them.  The interesting bits of the story don't come from those characters, but from other elements of the story, possibly even just what the archetypical characters do.

Again, I have nothing against stock characters per se--they can be quite useful.  The Butler and Peter Swanwick in The Prisoner were such stock characters, but they weren't bad characters.  In fact, had they been more unique characters or had they been removed, it would have detracted from the story.

It all depends on the story.

Edit:

And since when was Fa'lina grumpy? If anything, she is the eccentric ruler.

Oh, she's plenty grumpy.

Besides, the role of eccentric ruler is already taken by Biggs and Mab.

[Kasarn]

We like to call that a Strawman Argument (or something, I'm too lazy to look it up).

I said that Abel follows an archetypes
You said that the DMFA characters do not follow archetypes
I said that archetypes are not bad things, reinforcing my initial statement
You agree that archetpes are not bad

But you have not, in any way, proven your argument that the characters in DMFA do not follow archetypes.

[Turnsky]

I'm also getting tired with you people going on and on about how the cubis in the story (or even your own cubi characters) are so uber because they've had several centuries to learn everything from wielding 8 swords at once to shooting lightning out their ass.  Frankly, it's getting old, and the fan characters are even older and also horrible Mary Sues.

I used to think I was a fanboy of Amber, but you lot show that there are even deeper levels of fan geekdom.  This doesn't apply to all of you, but if you're trying to come up with an excuse as to why your 500 year old cubi character isn't a Mary Sue after reading this, I'm afraid you are one of the people included.

i've seen worse attempts at mary sue characters, believe me.

on a serious note, Cubi seem to be just as powerful as everybody else, and from what i've seen. just as mortal.
their lifespan might be up to 9000 years, but that's only if they play their cards right..
i mean, a mow is more indestructable than a cubi, for pete's sake!
there's other various critters on furrae of more or less ability than cubi, if you ask me.

look at it this way, Powerful as Abel is potentially capable of, Alexsi scares him..

as for people playing a character some 500 years+, i've yet to meet a person who can do over 200 years worth of accumulated knowledge. 

[Manawolf]

I do have a dragon character over that age, but then again that was only last time I checked, and I'm still ironing out all the details on him.  Frankly as long as you people stop god moding on abilities, they will register acceptable on my Mary Sue-o-meter.  However, one of you has kept the act up so long that it's older than dirt, and should be under six feet of that dirt already.

[Doraion]

Man Abel is good at not using swords in a fight ^ ^;  He can become good at stunning blows if he gets the right teacher to avoid making a person bleed.

[superluser]

We like to call that a Strawman Argument (or something, I'm too lazy to look it up).

That's the proper term, but it's not an accurate description.

I said that Abel follows an archetypes
You said that the DMFA characters do not follow archetypes
I said that archetypes are not bad things, reinforcing my initial statement
You agree that archetpes are not bad

But you have not, in any way, proven your argument that the characters in DMFA do not follow archetypes.

I didn't know that you wanted me to.  OK.  Resolved: that Abel follows the grumpy hermit archetype.  I'll take the negative position.

The grumpy hermit archetype (a subset of the wise old man Jungian archetype, and probably better described as the curmudgeonly hermit archetype--feel free to dispute this, I'll probably roll over) does not apply to Abel.

While Abel is antisocial, he is no hermit.  He lived with hundreds, if not thousands of peers.  The point of being a hermit in such an archetype is that you gain strength from your ascetism, and from the time spent in meditation with yourself/the higher powers.  He may have done a lot of meditation while he was in grass growing, but he doesn't seem the meditating type.  He doesn't seem terribly ascetic (though he may be a teetotaller), either.

His powers, while exceptional and unbalancing, are far, far less powerful than what we expect from the grumpy old hermit archetype.  They're much less powerful than--say--Destania and Fa'Lina.  He's not that old, especially compared to some of his peers (Aary is older than him, and she's not that old for a succubus, and he was pinned down by a dragon despite having gotten the drop on him).  While Abel is grumpy (and certainly curmudgeonly), he only tends to be that on occasion.

[Kasarn]

I never said he was old. Now that is a strawman argument.

Hermit merely represent Abel's preference to not have friends and his discomfort in places he is unfamiliar with.
And grumpy people are actually rather nice. It is merely a front they put on to make others uncomfortable and scare them off, preventing them from prying into their lives. They have often suffered a tragic past that makes them feel unwelcomed or unwanted by others.

[Turnsky]

We like to call that a Strawman Argument (or something, I'm too lazy to look it up).

That's the proper term, but it's not an accurate description.

I said that Abel follows an archetypes
You said that the DMFA characters do not follow archetypes
I said that archetypes are not bad things, reinforcing my initial statement
You agree that archetpes are not bad

But you have not, in any way, proven your argument that the characters in DMFA do not follow archetypes.

I didn't know that you wanted me to.  OK.  Resolved: that Abel follows the grumpy hermit archetype.  I'll take the negative position.

The grumpy hermit archetype (a subset of the wise old man Jungian archetype, and probably better described as the curmudgeonly hermit archetype--feel free to dispute this, I'll probably roll over) does not apply to Abel.

While Abel is antisocial, he is no hermit.  He lived with hundreds, if not thousands of peers.  The point of being a hermit in such an archetype is that you gain strength from your ascetism, and from the time spent in meditation with yourself/the higher powers.  He may have done a lot of meditation while he was in grass growing, but he doesn't seem the meditating type.  He doesn't seem terribly ascetic (though he may be a teetotaller), either.

His powers, while exceptional and unbalancing, are far, far less powerful than what we expect from the grumpy old hermit archetype.  They're much less powerful than--say--Destania and Fa'Lina.  He's not that old, especially compared to some of his peers (Aary is older than him, and she's not that old for a succubus, and he was pinned down by a dragon despite having gotten the drop on him).  While Abel is grumpy (and certainly curmudgeonly), he only tends to be that on occasion.

Hrm, i just had a thought..

While Fa'Lina paired Abel up with Dan so that Dan could learn all the cubi basics from him, maybe Fa'Lina wants Abel to learn something in Return from Dan, Too, whether it's something soppy like the value of friendship, social graces, or just how to get real good at DDR. 

[superluser]

I never said he was old. Now that is a strawman argument.

OK.  Fair enough.  I thought you did, but I was wrong.  I'm sorry.

Hermit merely represent Abel's preference to not have friends and his discomfort in places he is unfamiliar with.
And grumpy people are actually rather nice. It is merely a front they put on to make others uncomfortable and scare them off, preventing them from prying into their lives. They have often suffered a tragic past that makes them feel unwelcomed or unwanted by others.

I think that's a different archetype.  Say, the Holden Caulfield archetype?  It actually fits pretty well, since Abel seems to see himself as a sort of catcher in the rye.  I'm not sure that that's really an archetype, though.  More of a stereotype.

[Grenn]

Dan keeps loosing feathers.... I donno how he still has any left. :p

[Brunhidden]

Dan keeps loosing feathers.... I donno how he still has any left. :p

superglue

after this many comics dan is more superglue then cat.

*ponders if dan should bring flowers to jyjy too, or if that would be too much*

The force is like duct tape, it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together

[Turnsky]

Dan keeps loosing feathers.... I donno how he still has any left. :p

just like foghorn leghorn, he either has a spare set, or keeps his numbered for just such emergencies. 

[Kasarn]

Hermit merely represent Abel's preference to not have friends and his discomfort in places he is unfamiliar with.
And grumpy people are actually rather nice. It is merely a front they put on to make others uncomfortable and scare them off, preventing them from prying into their lives. They have often suffered a tragic past that makes them feel unwelcomed or unwanted by others.

I think that's a different archetype.  Say, the Holden Caulfield archetype?  It actually fits pretty well, since Abel seems to see himself as a sort of catcher in the rye.  I'm not sure that that's really an archetype, though.  More of a stereotype.

Near as I can tell, stereotypes apply to groups where an archetype applies to the individual. We use well known characters to represent common archetypes because are... uh... common and well known
Unsurprisingly, I have never read the Catcher In The Rye (because I english r fail at lol) so I can't really comment on that comparison.

[Magic]

Character types in general are difficult to avoid since everything's been written and remade to death. The fact that the human population is reaching a point wherein everything is cliche doesn't help either.

Complaining about cliches is also cliche, and is also cliche, and is also cliche--

So what makes these characters any less good?

[Zedd]

Character types in general are difficult to avoid since everything's been written and remade to death. The fact that the human population is reaching a point wherein everything is cliche doesn't help either.

Complaining about cliches is also cliche, and is also cliche, and is also cliche--

So what makes these characters any less good?

Does eatable fit the bill?

[Brunhidden]

yummy yummy yummy i got dan in my tummy and i feel like a daning you....or something.

sleep deprevation usually means the only charicter you understand is lor and pip

hehe, piplor...

Let me know when the walls stop bleeding

[Stygian]

Character types in general are difficult to avoid since everything's been written and remade to death. The fact that the human population is reaching a point wherein everything is cliche doesn't help either.

Complaining about cliches is also cliche, and is also cliche, and is also cliche--

So what makes these characters any less good?

Character types may be, but you've also got to mind the conteeeeeext... *Says in a sing-song voice and dangles upside down in the dark ceiling, over the doctor*

[Magic]

Well. Yes. That brings it to the point of that statement. You're looking at the bulk, not the conclusion.

[Sunblink]

Y'know, I'm starting to think Abel got his sense of humor/sarcasm from Devin. Only, he usually doesn't lay it on as thick.

Actually, I was thinking the exact same thing. I'm also starting to think that Abel may've taken Devin's speech about moving on to heart, as in maybe he used that bit of advice to move on from his experiences in the past.

Putting that bit of speculation aside, I'm a bit impressed with Abel's advice to Dan, and I couldn't help but laugh at the punchline. XD Am I the only one who finds Dan adorable in the second to last panel, what with the big eyes and the awkward, remorseful expression on his face? Anyone?

~Keaton the Black Jackal

[ShiningShadow]

Dan will do the right thing and tell Jyrass everything. I know Jyrass will get so angry at Dan he will not speak to him for days or maybe months. Well that's the price you pay for lying towards your best friend. If I know Dan he will do the right thing regardless.