2014/01/03 [DMFA #1454] Heavy tidings, man

[Jigsaw Forte]

Considering  how most  creatures  view  beings  as  self  replicating  parcels  of  energy/food , so I  would  gander  on  never .
Also  they  can  only  consume  psychic  energies . A  jump  like  the  one  you  suggest  would  be  like  us  deciding  to  graft  symbiotic  plants  to  our  bodies to  consume  sunlight  and  water  vapor . It's  not  going  to  happen  unless  something  ridiculous  wipes  out  their  food  source .

It can't be that far-fetched if there's enough people thinking "Dimanika ate a star" is a valid way of becoming a Tri-wing.

On some level, all energy is energy.

[HaDDea]

Not sure quite where Zinvth fits into that, and the bulk of Destania's lifespan seems to have been provided by Cyra to prevent her line dying out completely, but yes.  It does seem to cause a lot of trouble.  I think it's because it can provide good results quickly and relatively easily.

I just wonder what's in it for the Soulstealers to protect Zinvth - they seem to have come by their surname honestly enough, if Aliph/DP is anything to go by. Its just that, as has been pointed out by others, Creatures don't normally pay much attention to Beings unless they stand to benefit out of the arrangement. Granted, there are a disproportionate number of Creatures in Zinvth, but still...
Also, the Undead seem to have a particular grudge against the Soulstealer family - though whether that's just due to DP attempting to wipe them out or due to something else, I am not sure.

As for the use of soul energy, I recall that it is known among creatures (or at least some of them) that a side effect of soul energy use for life extension is insanity/instability. Both Destania and DP are showing signs of this. I just find it strange that someone would extend their life if a known side effect was that you destroy yourself in the process; it just makes the process seem like a waste of time and energy.

Sufficiently  powerful  entities  like  Fae  and  Dragons  are  canonically*  not  bound  by  time  and  space. If  Destina  does  anything  Hizell  could  retcon  the  entire  race  away...

... So  I  don't  believe  the  dragons  have  any  involvement  in  the  clan  leader's  death , it's  to  small  scale  for  them. Perhaps  it  was  a  set  of  epic  level  mage adventurers.

If dragons are not bound by time and space, why do they have lifespans? And we know already that Hizell is more than ready to attack he 'cubi race. I think that the dragons have been scaled back/ limited to some degree - they're still stupid powerful, but they seem to have more/different limitations than the Fae. And it's too early to figure out why Owona is dead (it could still be a coup, or perhaps a hand-off akin to what Zezzuva has planned), but if foul play is involved, Hizell may well be at the bottom of it.

[Tapewolf]

... although I do wonder how long it'll take for a Cubi to figure that out, hook themselves up to a hydroelectric generator, and just sit back and wait for the buildup of energy to make themselves a tri-wing.

Strangely enough, that was the premise of 'Project Future'.  They did it by converting electricity into a form of energy that could be consumed like a soul, so that took a lot more R&D.  I gave them a timeline of about 150 years after DMFA.

It doesn't solve the problem that ascension is inherently dangerous, that ascensions seem to be something which the universe is running out of, or that the dragons want to squash all Tri-wings.  In my comic I made the assumption that the dragons are no longer present.

I just wonder what's in it for the Soulstealers to protect Zinvth - they seem to have come by their surname honestly enough, if Aliph/DP is anything to go by. Its just that, as has been pointed out by others, Creatures don't normally pay much attention to Beings unless they stand to benefit out of the arrangement. Granted, there are a disproportionate number of Creatures in Zinvth, but still...

Reputation, I imagine.  IIRC, Amber once said that in a world where base materials can be created magically, reputation can often matter more than wealth.

[meltingface101]

Considering  how most  creatures  view  beings  as  self  replicating  parcels  of  energy/food , so I  would  gander  on  never .
Also  they  can  only  consume  psychic  energies . A  jump  like  the  one  you  suggest  would  be  like  us  deciding  to  graft  symbiotic  plants  to  our  bodies to  consume  sunlight  and  water  vapor . It's  not  going  to  happen  unless  something  ridiculous  wipes  out  their  food  source .

It can't be that far-fetched if there's enough people thinking "Dimanika ate a star" is a valid way of becoming a Tri-wing.

On some level, all energy is energy.

that's  merely  speculation  from  Fluffy . Also  magical  life  extension  is  so  rare  the  consequences  are  only  known  to  a  few  creatures  like  the  Fae .  

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... although I do wonder how long it'll take for a Cubi to figure that out, hook themselves up to a hydroelectric generator, and just sit back and wait for the buildup of energy to make themselves a tri-wing.

... and electrocute themselves and everyone in the vicinity as a result, yes.

Defib on aisle three. ;-]

[meltingface101]

Why  is  everyone  so  apt  to  elevate  Cubi  to  the  ridiculous  degree  that  they  do . In  comic  they  are  dying  race  barring  the  Deus  ex  machina  that  Zezzuva's  new  race  that  may  literally  never  see  the  light  of  day . There  are  to  many  factors  that  prevent  them  from  turning  into  this  set  of  borderline  demigods while  everyone else stands  idly  by . They  are  a  race  of  formless  beings  defined  by  its  dependency  on  others  for  sustenance , and  have  had  the  traits  to  allow  for  them  to  reliably  do  such  for  eons . They  won't  do  anything  like  what  you  say  unless  there  is  something  preventing  them  from  leeching  emotions  off  of  anyone  in  there  presence . This  is  why  I  suggested  mass  extinction  events , there  are  simply  to  many  reasons  for  them  to  continue  acting  as  parasites  unless  there  food  source  is  threatened . The  same  goes  for  demons  and  other  races  that  are  significantly  more  numerous  and  motivated .

Ultimately  the  thing  that  really  puts  the  nail  in  the  coffin is  publicity . The  bulk  of  Furrae  know  them  as  scheming , manipulative  emotional  parasites , because  that's  the  only  way  they  can  get  by . Things  like PF  rely upon  the  top  teir  creatures  suddenly  vanishing  with  all  of  the  problems  of  removing  such  prevalent  powers  who  work  behind  the  scenes  a  lot   never  appearing . The  only  reason  why  Cubi  let  alone  beings  have  not  been  bowled  over  by  races  that  have  no  need  of  them  is  due  to  the  intervention  of  such  creatures . Heck  the  current  plot  arch  revolves  around  Mab  using  her  friends  as  pawns  to  just  to  make  beings  just  to  prevent  such  a  scenario . You  remove  such  creatures  and  things  get  extremely  bloody  for  the  beings , the  cubi , and  the  demons . When  push  comes  to  shove  in  such  a  world  Cubi  will  not  be  capable  of  carrying  their  own  weight  , and  ultimately vanish .

[HaDDea]

TL;DR  :  Main  point  cubi  are  not  remotely  as  powerful  or  capable  as  people  make  them  out  to  be , and  democracy  would  quickly  fail in  Furrae  in  light  of  the  fact  that  a  few  people  are  above  others  in  every  possible  way.

I don't think most of us think that the 'cubi are particularly OP - as has been pointed out in the comic, a 15 year old demon can mop the floor with a fully grown adult 'cubi. The difference is between your run-of-the-mill 'cubi and a Tri-wing, who do pack a serious wallop (though how they compare to dragons is again unknown, and their power seems to wax and wane with clan strength). Any normal 'cubi can theoretically become a Tri-wing, but it takes the absorption of a metric buttload of energy, and no one has been able to properly quantify a buttload yet, so no one knows exactly what has to be done to become a tri-wing, and though many have tried, very few have succeeded.

The reason we are wondering about who got to Owona is because she is a tri-wing, and is the master of a mighty fighting clan, and because of the precautions the tri-wings have taken during and since the dragon-cubi war to protect themselves and their clans from being destroyed. Thus, if Owona has been assassinated, there are serious implications for the tri-wings in particular and the 'cubi in general if the tri-wings' defenses can be pierced.

Why Hizell and the other dragons are paying attention to the lesser creature races and plotting their demise is unknown - in fact, until Hizell showed up, very little about the dragons was known period; we'd seen more of the insectis than of the dragons. Perhaps it is the same as the Fae in that if you annoy them, they go nuclear on you. However, the fact that we still have 'cubi despite them having incurred the dragons' wrath somehow indicates that the dragons are perhaps not as OP as previously thought either.

[meltingface101]

In  the  Abel's  entire  clan  was  near completely  obliterated , leader  and  all  by  a  single  dragon . The  only  victories they  had  were  gained  by  kidnapping  infants , murdering  younger  dragons ,  and  even  then  at  a  massive  cost  to  their  own  numbers .    

Again  it  was  not  a  war  ,  merely  poorly  done  pest  control .

[Kazzellin]

In Abel's [story, an] entire clan was near[ly] obliterated, leader and all by a single dragon.

No, Siar's clan was not. According to Fa'lina, when Siar beckoned her clan to aid in fighting Hizell, he had allies laying in wait. See ASp2#55.

--

At this stage, what I'm wondering is why DP was trying to revive the Dragon God Hizell, when Hizell apparently isn't dead yet? Did DP succeed, or was that retconned out without my noticing? I know it was early-early in the comic, so...

[joshofspam]

In Abel's [story, an] entire clan was near[ly] obliterated, leader and all by a single dragon.

No, Siar's clan was not. According to Fa'lina, when Siar beckoned her clan to aid in fighting Hizell, he had allies laying in wait. See ASp2#55.

--

At this stage, what I'm wondering is why DP was trying to revive the Dragon God Hizell, when Hizell apparently isn't dead yet? Did DP succeed, or was that retconned out without my noticing? I know it was early-early in the comic, so...

Actually, I thought he was trying to resurrect some dark god. I don't think it ever was made clear what he was really trying to resurrect anything more then that.

I kind of wondering if the dark god might have been the spirit of the slain dragon that Cyra killed.

Which brings up an interesting point. Dragons for all their power, aren't immortal like the Fae and seem to be less powerful in the more being like form. Clearly dragons are both heavy hitters and devious plotters. But they aren't the biggest shark in this pond. I think the Tri-wings came a little too close for their comfort and Mab being at the inn definitely made him drop a plan all together. That gives a good statement to Dragon power and Fae power.

[Les]

Actually, I thought he was trying to resurrect some dark god. I don't think it ever was made clear what he was really trying to resurrect anything more then that.

I kind of wondering if the dark god might have been the spirit of the slain dragon that Cyra killed.

Which brings up an interesting point. Dragons for all their power, aren't immortal like the Fae and seem to be less powerful in the more being like form. Clearly dragons are both heavy hitters and devious plotters. But they aren't the biggest shark in this pond. I think the Tri-wings came a little too close for their comfort and Mab being at the inn definitely made him drop a plan all together. That gives a good statement to Dragon power and Fae power.

That's something I've been thinking on for some time.

Dragons and Fae are obviously the two tippy-top most of the top-tier creatures in Furrae, but that in no way makes them equal.   Dragons are leagues more powerful than anything beneath them on the ladder, but Fae are each and every one of them Omniscient, Omnipotent and Immortal and the only limitations on their powers are the ones they place upon themselves for their own inscrutable reasons.

Some time in the past, the Angels' birth-rates dropped dramatically, and they're now dying.  Cyra slew M'chek and uncovered his soul-siphon scheme in the process of becoming Tri-Wing, now it's been noted that it's become manifestly more difficult to ascend to Tri-Wing status.

I think the Dragons are working on a plan to ascend to a level of parity with the Fae, M'Chek's soul-shenanigans were part of that plan, and the sudden difficulty in Tri-Wing ascension is part of some heavy duty Curse magic laid on by the Dragons which (along with the open warfare) was intended to punish the Cubi for spoiling the Dragon's plans... My guess is the Angels stumbled upon a similar plan and their reduced birth-rates are the Dragons spanking them for that as well.

[Prroul]

So the clan leader for the clan with an affinity for 'Rage', whose members are infamous for being the fiercest warriors in all of Cubi-dom, and the only controlling factor on them, just got assassinated.

Hmmm... on the one hand, now you have a whole clan of, basically, berserkers with advanced natural weapon shapeshifting tactics plowing a bloody swath through whatever is between them and what they perceive to be the perpetrator.

On the other hand, sting a bull by his nose, and you can lead him around by it. There's a reason why armies tend to be victorious over mobs, no matter how skilled, ferocious, and personally badass the individuals in that mob might be. And the easiest way to defeat an opponent is to make them stop thinking in a fight and take advantage of their lack of unpredictability.

I'll be honest, if I was wanting to take down the Cubi race in its entirety, this is just the sort of move I'd make. Under Odwala, the clan is a serious thread. Now, they're a bunch of berzerking individuals who can be singled out and taken down with relative ease, assuming you use clever tactics (i.e. assassination, sniping, dirty tricks...).

Going after Taun would also be a high priority, but it is highly likely that Taun has a second in command capable of keeping things disciplined if she gets whacked, so the damage for the short term would ultimately be less. However, I'd also see Clan Taun as a greater threat overall due to their discipline. But hitting the warriors and taking them out means the disciplined soldiers no longer have the shock troops necessary to disorganize an opponent force, and makes taking them out at least somewhat easier.

I see here a pattern of 'extermination of the entire cubi species'. This has a far wider ranging dimension that we are only inadvertently touching at the moment.

[Tapewolf]

Going after Taun would also be a high priority, but it is highly likely that Taun has a second in command capable of keeping things disciplined if she gets whacked, so the damage for the short term would ultimately be less.

From what I've heard, the day-to-day running of the clan is done through a group of commanders or somesuch that she trusts - I would assume they have a chain of command.  Taun herself mostly sticks to the long-range planning.

[HaDDea]

So the clan leader for the clan with an affinity for 'Rage', whose members are infamous for being the fiercest warriors in all of Cubi-dom, and the only controlling factor on them, just got assassinated.

Hmmm... on the one hand, now you have a whole clan of, basically, berserkers with advanced natural weapon shapeshifting tactics plowing a bloody swath through whatever is between them and what they perceive to be the perpetrator.

On the other hand, sting a bull by his nose, and you can lead him around by it. There's a reason why armies tend to be victorious over mobs, no matter how skilled, ferocious, and personally badass the individuals in that mob might be. And the easiest way to defeat an opponent is to make them stop thinking in a fight and take advantage of their lack of unpredictability.

I'll be honest, if I was wanting to take down the Cubi race in its entirety, this is just the sort of move I'd make. Under Odwala, the clan is a serious thread. Now, they're a bunch of berzerking individuals who can be singled out and taken down with relative ease, assuming you use clever tactics (i.e. assassination, sniping, dirty tricks...).

Going after Taun would also be a high priority, but it is highly likely that Taun has a second in command capable of keeping things disciplined if she gets whacked, so the damage for the short term would ultimately be less. However, I'd also see Clan Taun as a greater threat overall due to their discipline. But hitting the warriors and taking them out means the disciplined soldiers no longer have the shock troops necessary to disorganize an opponent force, and makes taking them out at least somewhat easier.

I see here a pattern of 'extermination of the entire cubi species'. This has a far wider ranging dimension that we are only inadvertently touching at the moment.

perhaps... but keep in mind we do not know the nature of Owona's passing. Fa'lina merely said that she had been reported 'slain', not murdered - there is a chance that this may have been an intentional move similar to that of Zezzuva's.

it does seem that the use of an extant tri-wing's power, whether by force or with the leader's consent is a viable and highly successful way of passing on tri-wing status.

Actually, I thought he was trying to resurrect some dark god. I don't think it ever was made clear what he was really trying to resurrect anything more then that.

I kind of wondering if the dark god might have been the spirit of the slain dragon that Cyra killed.

Which brings up an interesting point. Dragons for all their power, aren't immortal like the Fae and seem to be less powerful in the more being like form. Clearly dragons are both heavy hitters and devious plotters. But they aren't the biggest shark in this pond. I think the Tri-wings came a little too close for their comfort and Mab being at the inn definitely made him drop a plan all together. That gives a good statement to Dragon power and Fae power.

That's something I've been thinking on for some time.

Dragons and Fae are obviously the two tippy-top most of the top-tier creatures in Furrae, but that in no way makes them equal.   Dragons are leagues more powerful than anything beneath them on the ladder, but Fae are each and every one of them Omniscient, Omnipotent and Immortal and the only limitations on their powers are the ones they place upon themselves for their own inscrutable reasons.

Some time in the past, the Angels' birth-rates dropped dramatically, and they're now dying.  Cyra slew M'chek and uncovered his soul-siphon scheme in the process of becoming Tri-Wing, now it's been noted that it's become manifestly more difficult to ascend to Tri-Wing status.

I think the Dragons are working on a plan to ascend to a level of parity with the Fae, M'Chek's soul-shenanigans were part of that plan, and the sudden difficulty in Tri-Wing ascension is part of some heavy duty Curse magic laid on by the Dragons which (along with the open warfare) was intended to punish the Cubi for spoiling the Dragon's plans... My guess is the Angels stumbled upon a similar plan and their reduced birth-rates are the Dragons spanking them for that as well.

I do definitely think that the dragon's attack on the Angels and the 'Cubi is based on this - but i am not so sure that the curse on angel fertility/tri-wing capability is necessarily from the dragons, but from the use of soul energy itself. There was a letter from Zezzuva (don't know where to link) that seemed to indicate that there was a cost to using soul energy in that it has a corrupting nature on the one using it due to the nature of what happens to the soul when ripped from its original body. It may be that the use of being and creature souls as an energy source, whether intentionally or unintentionally, may have unknown 'poisoning' effects on all creature races, even the dragons.

[meltingface101]

I  think  its  in  this  thread

http://tapewolf.wildernessguardians.com/stuff/ZezzuvaLetter300.pdf

here  are  the  others  as  well

http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,8656.0.html