Skinny Cubi

[TypoNinja]

Well, there is a limit to how far you can push it.  At the end of the day their metabolism is magic-based, and in the DMFA universe it seems to be easy to create raw materials via magical processes.

See this bothers me, (and I've had this discussion with others so I'm curious where you guys take it) Even in a cosmology that contains magic there still has to be a fixed amount, conservation of energy tells us that 'simple' shape shifting is in fact a far more complex system than it appears at a glance.

Take for example what is presumably one of the most common shape shifts, hiding of the head wings. They can't just go away, they have to go somewhere.

Now the easiest way to account for that is transference to energy, but that's only a relatively(pardon the pun) simple solution since Matter to Energy conversion is ridiculously energetic. So where does the energy go? Worse, when going in the other direction and reforming the wings a Cubi needs to somehow access a similarly large energy reserve and consume it when converting back to matter.

And we know they don't 'save' it somehow otherwise magical combat would be leveling cities, if Cubi were able to bank their excess power from shapeshifing mass away magical combat would consist of a Cubi shrinking an inch and unleashing a godlike blast of energy fueled by a matter/energy conversion.

And you can't just say "It's magic." Even magic has to follow rules, even if we might not understand all of them yet.

I know I'm over thinking this, but this is what I do for fun

[Mao]

But speculation similar to real world - either everything will go in accord to our theories, and then they are workable, or something does not and then we have to improve them,...
It is sort of like science , except we cannot conduct proper experiments LOL

Problems with that:  You're waiting on the word of god (Amber) and that word of god can change overnight either because she changed her mind, or she forgot, or she sneezed and the chain reactions that went from there caused it to change.  Instead, why don't you just sit back and enjoy the show?  I'm all for scientific thought and careful consideration, but when those things lead you to start trying to state something as fact when there is, unfortunately, too many variables you simply can't account for.. it seems to me that you are not only being counter productive but are flat out wasting time.

Beyond that: this is a comic.  A magical realm where dragons and fae with god like powers roam the world.  The more you try and apply the logic of our world on to it, the more you, pardon the reference to vulgarity, effing beat the magic out of it.  Seriously?  I know this isn't a beef with you, but I really think there should be a sub-forum for these crazy speculation threads.  They're not even story discussion as far as I'm concerned.

[Drayco84]

Actually, a sub-forum for crazy/insane speculation threads sounds like an excellent idea...

[VAE]

I know this isn't a beef with you, but I really think there should be a sub-forum for these crazy speculation threads.  They're not even story discussion as far as I'm concerned.

i am for, too, actually!
Although since comic threads easily (d)evolve into speculation, it might be difficult to set a border
(Ohh, i see what you are trying! You want to create situations where such threads die before they begin as the creator will be unsure where to put them! Ebil!)

[Infranscia]

Even fantasy magic needs to follow some form of logic.  And, actually, in a lot of fantasy worlds, arcane spellcasters need to spend a lot of time studying the physics behind their magic and how to affect the world in order to properly cast their spells.  In fact, in things such as FullMetal Alchemist, they explain that they're basically manipulating things on a molecular level.  And when it comes to how much energy this stuff would take, well, I guess we can basically say that it's commonly assumed that one's own mana/aura/spirit/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is very powerful (and frankly, I agree).  To what measurement in energy?  We don't know.

Besides, it's fun to theorise.


Hmm... I wonder how difficult a water-to-wine spell would be considered in DMFA?  Or better yet in Dan's view, water-to-ale.

[TypoNinja]

Hmm... I wonder how difficult a water-to-wine spell would be considered in DMFA?  Or better yet in Dan's view, water-to-ale.

That depends, do we get to simply transmute at no loss, or do we have to pay for the skipped process of brewing as well?

[Drayco84]

^^^
I believe the leading theory on that is that it can be done, but the results taste terrible...
Heck, the whole water-into-wine trick can be done by a simple knowledge of chemistry. The trick is mixing two clear liquids that look like water, but react, forming a wine-colored liquid. (As for certain biblical references, debating that is gonna need another thread.)

And for specifics, FullMetal Alchemist eventually revealed that the life-energy of one world powered the alchemy of the other world. Considering that hundreds, if not thousands, of people die every day, and the population of Edward's world seemed smaller than that of the "other" world... 
And even then, Edward "skipped" some steps in the process, nearly losing his life at a young age and gaining knowledge that would've taken years of study and practice in the process.
And yes, I have bought the whole series plus movie on DVD format. (Though I did have to watch some fan-subbed episodes due to TWO defective collections and crappy Best Buy not having YET ANOTHER set to exchange...)

And now, I must leave before I kill any more catgirls...

[AmigaDragon]

Besides, it's fun to theorise.


Hmm... I wonder how difficult a water-to-wine spell would be considered in DMFA?  Or better yet in Dan's view, water-to-ale.

"Eye of rabbit, harp string hum, turn this water into..." *KABOOM!!*

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Totally off topic.  What's with all the "fan" and "familiar" things in people's sigs?

In the Villa is a thread.

http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php/topic,7164.0.html

You have been enlightened.

[A. Lurker]

And you can't just say "It's magic." Even magic has to follow rules, even if we might not understand all of them yet.

I know I'm over thinking this, but this is what I do for fun

But of course we can say "it's just magic"!

The thing is, since magic doesn't seem to exist in the real world, anything we can say about how its presence would affect the laws of physics is just speculation to begin with. People who take the lazy way out by saying "well, of course the world works exactly like ours, only with magic!" are one of my (thankfully lesser) pet peeves -- if it has magic, it already doesn't work "exactly like ours", and thus it's silly to unthinkingly assume that any of 'our' rules must apply unchanged by default.

I mean, for all we know Furrae actually is just an oddly two-dimensional world populated by lifeforms made up from lines and blobs of color rather than biological cells as we'd understand them. Although I'll concede that that sounds just a touch farfetched even to me...

[VAE]

But remember, a human popped in there accidentally, so the physicses have to be compatible !

[Suwako]

But remember, a human popped in there accidentally, so the physicses have to be compatible !

Does that human need to have been from our universe? With the probability of thousands of realities being out there the world that human was from did not need to be ours.

Also this is a silly discussion for silly people.

[Liatai]

True, true. But it's fun. 

[Suwako]

True, true. But it's fun.  

Can't win.  

[Tangent]

Do you all have Catgirl hunting licenses? There've been several hundred catgirl deaths as a result of this thread alone.

Fortunately, I do have catgirl hunting licenses available; it costs i250 for each catgirl license tag....

[TypoNinja]

Do you all have Catgirl hunting licenses? There've been several hundred catgirl deaths as a result of this thread alone.

Fortunately, I do have catgirl hunting licenses available; it costs i250 for each catgirl license tag....

I'm a Trek nerd, I got the bulk license years ago.

But of course we can say "it's just magic"!

The thing is, since magic doesn't seem to exist in the real world, anything we can say about how its presence would affect the laws of physics is just speculation to begin with. People who take the lazy way out by saying "well, of course the world works exactly like ours, only with magic!" are one of my (thankfully lesser) pet peeves -- if it has magic, it already doesn't work "exactly like ours", and thus it's silly to unthinkingly assume that any of 'our' rules must apply unchanged by default.

Right, but everything has rules, everything has to have rules, even magic. These rules might differ drastically from what we are used to, but there's no doubt they exist. You can't have a chaotic system existing in an ordered reality. Even more simply, able took a magic class, the fact that magic can be taught as a class tells us there are certain constants, limitations, and rules for magic, otherwise there would be nothing to teach.

Does that human need to have been from our universe? With the probability of thousands of realities being out there the world that human was from did not need to be ours.

Yes, or rather at least from one similar enough to ours to be indistinguishable without extensive studies (in terms of the rules it operates on). The human body is a pretty complex machine, putzing with the rules of reality would make us break pretty quickly. Similarly, we can assume that biology is relatively unchanged across the spectrum, since beings seem to eat much the same food we do, Alexis talks of giving free apples to children in one case. Their idea of Cake and ours match up, this means chemical reactions work as we'd expect as well, since Able's cake came out looking fairly tasty, yeast rising and all that. Same for ales/beers. Fermentation of alcohol is a another bit of chemistry and matches up, even more telling, Beings and even Creatures seem to process alcohol the same way we do. This tells us that their physiology is quite similar to ours, close enough to even have the same biological quirks we do, like forehead wounds bleeding a great deal even though the actual wound is minor.

Many people assume that its hard to get solid information from a fantasy world, but simple observations and some logical deductions will leave you with surprisingly large amounts of information.

Also this is a silly discussion for silly people.

Well yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.

[Suwako]

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Irrelevant, since the possible number of alternate realities is infinite or at least near infinite. By this we could determine that a human from that reality did not need to be as sensitive as one in hours. As well that crossing between universes may bestow changes upon the human itself which we have no information on. It is uncertain in both aspects and because this was one of the earlier comics is more random silliness than well thought out scientificly well supported phenomenon.

[AmigaDragon]

Even more simply, able took a magic class, the fact that magic can be taught as a class tells us there are certain constants, limitations, and rules for magic, otherwise there would be nothing to teach.

Abel took only one magic class in the last 400 years? I'm sure he took a multitude of magical subjects in that time, whether he was proficient at most of them or not.

[TypoNinja]

Even more simply, able took a magic class, the fact that magic can be taught as a class tells us there are certain constants, limitations, and rules for magic, otherwise there would be nothing to teach.

Abel took only one magic class in the last 400 years? I'm sure he took a multitude of magical subjects in that time, whether he was proficient at most of them or not.

One that we've seen, it'd be reasonable to assume he took more, since he was proficient enough to polymorph Dan in #691.

The point stands however, be it 'magic 101' or 'Advanced Techniques in Thaumaturgic Manipulations', the fact that classes on magic exist shows us there are consistent traits to it that can be learned/taught. Since there are, you can further conclude that they will for the most part follow the established laws of reality, like conservation of energy, or drag/lift, unless demonstrated otherwise because a system that breaks reality as its nature would never come about naturally*, a system that follows the established laws of realtiy, but has the potential to conflict is more likely however.

*the Fey have mentioned that Furrae exists as a sort of an inter-dimensional middle of nowhere, so nobody cares if anybody breaks it (#841) so its entirely possible that the Fey and/or Dragons set up an inherently unstable system just to see what happened to it. But you can't draw any realistic conclusions from that assumption (plus there's no evidence for it, but that's kind of the point of a grand conspiracy anyway). Mab does seem to have some kind of plan that involves a magic vs technology clash at some point, that seems related, but we wouldn't get much out of speculating along those lines yet since its likely to be covered in future comics.

[A. Lurker]

This entire insistence that any given hypothetical alternate reality has to have the same rules as ours at its root or else it couldn't work at all (based, essentially, on the fact that those are the rules we're the most familiar with) in all honesty rather reminds me of that old joke about a drunk, his lost keys, and a street lamp...

...but going down this road any further looks likely to just end in flames, which I'm just as honestly not interested in. So instead, here's a mow with a cookie. I'm out.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I've got to say, you've now got me interested in the joke. Care to enlighten me? I collect bad jokes...

[TypoNinja]

This entire insistence that any given hypothetical alternate reality has to have the same rules as ours at its root or else it couldn't work at all (based, essentially, on the fact that those are the rules we're the most familiar with) in all honesty rather reminds me of that old joke about a drunk, his lost keys, and a street lamp...

...but going down this road any further looks likely to just end in flames, which I'm just as honestly not interested in. So instead, here's a mow with a cookie. I'm out.

Uhh no, I maintain it has to have similar rules to ours because of observations about the world we've gotten through the comic. Things like Booze showing they have similar chemistry to us, and their state of inebriation appears much the same as ours argues for a similar physiology, red blood shows its likely they have similar biological makeups, forehead wounds bleeding copiously , things of this nature.

Its not that its the rules we are familiar with its that so far they've been conforming to the rules as we'd expect. Given that they seem to follow quite a few of the Laws we are familiar with and that the laws of our reality are greatly interdependent, I don't think its unreasonable to assume their reality operations on the same rules as our, or at least on a close enough set of rules to not be easily distinguishable without advanced study.

Though that's kind of side tracking, I was originally curious about possibly extrapolating some of the principles of magic in the world and ended up distracted while justifying why I thought there had to be consistent rules for it.

Jyrra's was doing some experimenting on it in #370, so I don't think I'm completely out of left field expecting there to be some rules to it. Maybe I'll have to hold out for another comic though   

[VAE]

It would be interesting though if they had ether, or other of the more fancy physics theories of 19th century!

[TypoNinja]

It would be interesting though if they had ether, or other of the more fancy physics theories of 19th century!

Oh, geeze. That'd be a hoot. 

[Tapewolf]

I've got to say, you've now got me interested in the joke. Care to enlighten me? I collect bad jokes...

I think it's something like the drunk dropping his keys in a dark corner but searching under the streetlamp because that's where he can actually see.

[VAE]

I've got to say, you've now got me interested in the joke. Care to enlighten me? I collect bad jokes...

I think it's something like the drunk dropping his keys in a dark corner but searching under the streetlamp because that's where he can actually see.

Oh, i thought it was the one with the drunk strafing around the lamp, trying his keys and then commenting: This tall building and they do not have an elevator....

[Trazz]

Well, now that Piflak's around, we know that 'Cubi CAN in fact get fat =P

[Tapewolf]

Well, now that Piflak's around, we know that 'Cubi CAN in fact get fat =P

Though the jury's still out whether that's actual body fat or not