About the Eee laptops (AKA: Hey, Tapewolf, Sofox!)

[Reese Tora]

Hey, Tape, Sofox, I'm looking at these EEE laptops like the ones you two had with you at AC, and I wanted to get some more info from you two on them(proce, eprformance, advice...).  I'm looking at the ones listed on newegg right now, and I wanted to see how they measured up to what you guys have, and so on.

The ones I've been looking at primarily are these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2030260032%2050001315&bop=And&Order=PRICE

specifically the 16 and 20 GB models

I figured I would use it for note taking, music playing, and maybe load up a few of my low-end games if I got the windows version (or if WINE is available on the linux version) and of course use it for net access and stuff at conventions

I was also looking for details for if I might want to change the distro of Linux if I get the Linux version, the upgradability of the RAM, and some of those details that you guys were discussing at AC about some versions of these being better than others despite being older, as I don't quite remember the specifics.

[Tapewolf]

Hey, Tape, Sofox, I'm looking at these EEE laptops like the ones you two had with you at AC, and I wanted to get some more info from you two on them(proce, eprformance, advice...).  I'm looking at the ones listed on newegg right now, and I wanted to see how they measured up to what you guys have, and so on.

The ones I've been looking at primarily are these:  specifically the 16 and 20 GB models
I figured I would use it for note taking, music playing, and maybe load up a few of my low-end games if I got the windows version (or if WINE is available on the linux version) and of course use it for net access and stuff at conventions

The 701 is cheap and cheerful.  IIRC the 900 has already been discontinued in favour of the Atom-based 901 (though the 701 will remain as the low-end model).  Most of the 901 reviews have called it "the machine the 900 should have been".  If you can get a good deal on a 900 it might be worth it, but I don't know anyone with practical experience of those.  Sofox and I both run the 4GB 701.

The default OS ships has an old version of WINE in its repository.  You might be able to shoehorn a more recent build into it, though.  The idea of buying a linux machine and then sticking XP on it appals me, so I haven't tried that.  Good luck if you want to try it, though.

FWIW, I did try to run Morrowind through WINE on mine once - it wasn't quite fast enough to be sensibly playable.

I was also looking for details for if I might want to change the distro of Linux if I get the Linux version, the upgradability of the RAM, and some of those details that you guys were discussing at AC about some versions of these being better than others despite being older, as I don't quite remember the specifics.

The default Xandros installation is horses for courses.  It boots very very fast, and is quite acceptable even if you put it into Advanced mode.  It also has support for the little 'house' key.  However, it has a very limited software repository.
Also, the partition scheme is a disaster waiting to happen.
IIRC it has a 2GB core partition that is read-only and a 1.5GB writable partition that is overlaid with UnionFS.  The practical upshot is that it will gradually shrink away to nothing as the OS is updated and the space in the core is not reclaimed.
The machine I had at AC had been repartitioned, using a portable HDD to move the OS back onto it.  There is a wiki article which explains how to get rid of the UnionFS scheme, which I followed.

I've stuck Hardy on mine now.  It doesn't support the 'house' key, and it took a few extra tweaks to bring up the Power button and the function keys to turn the wireless on and off, etc.  I have difficulties with the onboard WLAN under this distribution, but I'm sure that will be solved in time.  For now I use an RT76 USB wireless stick when the Atheros doesn't wanna play.  It might work better on the 90x series anyway, I wouldn't know.

Also, Hardy is taking over a minute to boot.  Xandros was up and running by the time Hardy has loaded the splash screen 

Is there anything I've missed?

**EDIT**

Oh yes, if I was buying the machine again, I would be tempted to look at Acer's thing, or the new one from Mandriva.  Okay, so they made some weird design decisions like having the core of the OS on a removable drive, and calling their portal the 'Gayaplex', but having a mini laptop based around a 64-bit MIPS core would be an interesting thing indeed.  (Though you could forget about WINE)

[VSMIT]

I've stuck Hardy on mine now.  It doesn't support the 'house' key, and it took a few extra tweaks to bring up the Power button and the function keys to turn the wireless on and off, etc.  I have difficulties with the onboard WLAN under this distribution, but I'm sure that will be solved in time.  For now I use an RT76 USB wireless stick when the Atheros doesn't wanna play.  It might work better on the 90x series anyway, I wouldn't know.

I've got Ubuntu on a desktop machine, and it just doesn't like any wireless card I put in it.  Hasn't since I installed it.  So something tells me that they're not going to allow wireless compatibility any time soon.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Really?

I've got one that was using a wireless card for about a year, and the only issue it had was the other end kept dying.

Which version of Ubuntu was it? 6.0.4 was a bit dodgy, but worked; later versions should be more easily usable...

[Mao]

So something tells me that they're not going to allow wireless compatibility any time soon.

It's not that they didn't/won't/don't allow wireless compatibility (as that would be silly) it's more likely that something was borked.  This happens in all systems.  Even if you have an old version that is 'no longer' supported.. trust me.  Someone out there has made a fix for it.  It's one the reasons I love *Nix systems so much.  It's also one of the reasons I hate *Nix systems, but that's another discussion.

[VSMIT]

I don't remember what the version number was, but I think it was version 7 of some kind.  Ethernet it would see just fine.  But slap the wireless card in there, and half the time it wouldn't boot up.  I've since updated, but haven't really tried the wireless again, and haven't really needed to.

[Tapewolf]

I don't remember what the version number was, but I think it was version 7 of some kind.  Ethernet it would see just fine.  But slap the wireless card in there, and half the time it wouldn't boot up.  I've since updated, but haven't really tried the wireless again, and haven't really needed to.

Wireless is the big problem Linux is having at the moment, though truth be told I'm having more luck with it than I am on the Mac.  the main issue is that very few manufacturers want to reveal how their cards work, hence no drivers.
Without knowing the make, model and chip in your wireless card, it's difficult to make suggestions, and even then it should probably be done in a different thread, not one about mini-laptops.
Personally, my successes have come by making sure that the card has Linux support before I buy it.

[VSMIT]

I already had the card, from a Windows machine, and put it into the Ubuntu machine so that I could move it if I had to.  But what Mac OS are you using?  My Macbook's having no problems with connecting to a wireless network.

[Tapewolf]

I already had the card, from a Windows machine, and put it into the Ubuntu machine so that I could move it if I had to.  But what Mac OS are you using?  My Macbook's having no problems with connecting to a wireless network.

10.4.  The inbuilt card seems unable to support WPA-2 properly, but that's not quite the point.  What I meant was that it was even more difficult to find a card with support for MacOS than it was to get one that worked on Linux (though when I did, it solved all the WPA-2 issues).

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Heh. It occurs to me that my network, being somewhat limited, doesn't use WPA at all, limiting itself to WEP.

I really should get around to upgrading it...

[VSMIT]

When we set up our wireless network, we tried to set up a WEP key, because that's what my dad was used to.  An Apple Airport, however, doesn't like WEP and defaults to WPA-PSK.  So we were having serious problems until my dad decided to try WPA.  Then it worked.

@Tapewolf: I would think that Apple would want to have a wireless expansion card just because almost nobody makes them for Macs.  I'd be willing to bet that an Airport Express would work, if you had just an ethernet card.

[Tapewolf]

@Tapewolf: I would think that Apple would want to have a wireless expansion card just because almost nobody makes them for Macs.  I'd be willing to bet that an Airport Express would work, if you had just an ethernet card.

I'm hoping it's a software issue that 10.5 will solve, but I'm reluctant to upgrade it yet as it will take Photoshop 7 down hard (which is worth about 2/3 of the cost of the mac itself, IIRC).  At some point I'll get Elements or something else that's compatible with 10.5.  For now, I'm just using a zd1211rw stick which does have a MacOS 10.4 driver.

The situation is more like a guarded truce than a fix, as the entire system tends to go into collapse if anything is changed (e.g. the Mac will take down the router, the router will take down the linux boxes, the linux boxes will take down the Mac etc).

llearch, might it be worth splitting this into Eee-PCs and wireless cards as two separate topics?

**EDIT**
Oh yeah, llearch, WEP takes something like 15 seconds to break, so yeah, I'd upgrade it, just in case someone uses it for child porn or something.

[Reese Tora]

The default OS ships has an old version of WINE in its repository.  You might be able to shoehorn a more recent build into it, though.  The idea of buying a linux machine and then sticking XP on it appals me, so I haven't tried that.  Good luck if you want to try it, though.

Oh, I wouldn't try it, but about a third of the models on the page I linked to come with XP home(bleah, gimme pro!) preinstalled as the OS.  I can only imagine that it'll run much slower using windows compared to a streamlined kernel of *nix.

Of course, the license for windows makes those versions cost $50 more than the equivalent Linux versions... probably not worth it for performance reasons.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

TW: You really think my network is as insecure as all that? WEP is the first layer, and is only there to obscure things. I'm aware it's that easy to break, I just haven't had the week or so of free time to mess about with all the many and varied machines on the network to make them work with WPA.

Mostly the gateway; it's kinda important to keep that one going...

[Tapewolf]

TW: You really think my network is as insecure as all that? WEP is the first layer, and is only there to obscure things. I'm aware it's that easy to break, I just haven't had the week or so of free time to mess about with all the many and varied machines on the network to make them work with WPA.

In that case you're probably okay.  It's just that there's this old saying about the weakest link in the chain..


This is as much a reminder for me as for anyone else, but there is a site here with some optimisations for Hardy Heron that supposedly cut EeePC boot time to about 25-30 seconds.

http://www.array.org/ubuntu/

[VSMIT]

I'm hoping it's a software issue that 10.5 will solve, but I'm reluctant to upgrade it yet as it will take Photoshop 7 down hard (which is worth about 2/3 of the cost of the mac itself, IIRC).  At some point I'll get Elements or something else that's compatible with 10.5.  For now, I'm just using a zd1211rw stick which does have a MacOS 10.4 driver.

I think it would be prudent to contact Adobe and see what they can do with your potential Photoshop issue.  If they value you as a customer, they'll probably do something.  But why would upgrading to Leopard take it down?  I would think that Adobe would put out an update for 10.5 compatibility.

[Tapewolf]

I think it would be prudent to contact Adobe and see what they can do with your potential Photoshop issue.  If they value you as a customer, they'll probably do something.  But why would upgrading to Leopard take it down?  I would think that Adobe would put out an update for 10.5 compatibility.

No, unless things have changed massively over the last six month.  Remember that PS7 is 5 years old or more, and I got mine NOS.
I went over this while issue when I realised the problem was going to occur, and IIRC, the whole infrastructure that PS7 is based on is being deprecated so only fix is to upgrade.
This will cost a tremendous sum, on top of which I never managed to get past PS's horrible UI , but I do need it for high-end PSD conversion and the like.  Most other people in this position have either illicitly obtained a later version, or bought Elements, and Elements is probably fine for my needs.

[shadowterm]

If I was going to by a ultra portable I'd go with this. http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/avcards/a615/ (that specific supplier is out, but you can get it elsewhere.) Mainly due to the 120 Gig hard drive, and other things that make it, in my view, worth the extra cash. The fact that it's still relatively compact makes it even cooler.

[Tapewolf]

If I was going to by a ultra portable I'd go with this.  Mainly due to the 120 Gig hard drive, and other things that make it, in my view, worth the extra cash. The fact that it's still relatively compact makes it even cooler.

Your mileage may vary, but to me one of the key points of an ultra-portable is that it doesn't have a hard disk and is therefore less fragile.  That particular unit is also a little on the pricier side... with the EeePC, and particularly with the Elonex ONE, it's almost disposable if it does get stolen or destroyed.
That said, if you do need that kind of disk space, you can always plug in an external hard disk.

[shadowterm]

True, I guess I wouldn't need THAT much storage on the go. But the PC comes in different models, I'll have to look it up and see if one of the options comes with a flash drive.

EDIT: for $100 less, you can get a four gig flash drive version with Suse Linux, 512 MB of ram, 1GHz processor, and 8.9 inch diagonal screen. Also has aluminum case and magnesium alloy support structure. Not sure what the specs on the Eee PC, but if it's better, that means I may not have to spend as much as I thought. Maybe my decision was misguided by the shiny-ness.

[Reese Tora]

Shadowterm, the closest equivalent in price Eee PC(on newegg, after a mail in rebate) has a 20GB SSD and 1GB of RAM, which is definently better and closest without a mail-in rebate is 16GB and 1GB(but comes with XP home... a linux version would probably cost $50 less)

The price to performance on newegg is skewed, though, as the specs do not reflect the price.  The prices are probably based on what newegg bought them at, which would explain the weird skewing.

I'm definently looking at the Eee PC 900 with Linux and the 20GB SSD now as my top option, and I should buy it before that rebate expires (it's the one I mentioned a couple paragraphs ago) if I am going to get it.

Do you guys know if there's an extended battery available? this one lists with a 4 cell abttery for 3 hours of use, and the 901s that are available list with a 6 cell that provides up to 7 hours of use (but the 901s list at $600, and there are no deals or rebates in sight...)

sneaky newegg, they added in the linux versions of the 901s while I was driving home from work.

[Tapewolf]

Do you guys know if there's an extended battery available? this one lists with a 4 cell abttery for 3 hours of use, and the 901s that are available list with a 6 cell that provides up to 7 hours of use (but the 901s list at $600, and there are no deals or rebates in sight...)

That was the weird lump on the back of mine that wasn't in SoFox's.  It was a 3rd-party one, but it keeps the thing running for a long time, certainly over 5 hours.  I'll have to do a full test at some point, but according to the (admittedly questionable) battery monitor, it looked to give it a 9-hour life.  After 4.5 hours it was down to half-charge (this was with the machine sat mostly idle and the WiFi left on).

I can't remember if the 700 and 900s have the same battery design or if it was changed, so YMMV.

**EDIT**
As for the pricing, the usual trick is that the Win32 and Linux versions cost the same, but you get more flash disk in the Linux version.

[Reese Tora]

mmm, fair enough.

I did a little research in the interum, and I did find some interesting info (wikipedia primarily, but anyway...)

The 700 has a 4400 mAH battery where some of the 900s had 4400 OR 5800 mAH batteries.  the 901 aparently has a better processor and better firmware that equates to better battery life (and it also has a 6600 mAH battery) though the 900s can get a firware upgrade that's supposed to add half an hour of battery life.

and there's the 1000 that may as well be just a small version of a regular laptop and has a slightly worse battery life than the 901(well, larger screen, if at the same native resolution, and larger SDD... or a regular HDD, so it makes sense)

While I could find mentioned OO.org, FF, Skype, email, Wikipedia lookup, and google docs, nothing I found covered the rest of the 40 or so apps that are advertised to come preinstalled on the Eee PC.(nothing beyond that it's educational/entertainment software...)

Also in the vein of software, do any of the above apps include a client to access AIM or YIM, or is there a client for either that I can install myself?

At this point, I'm trying to decide between the 900 with it's lower price, shorter battery life, and slower processor, and the 901 with the higher price, longer battery life, and faster processor.  The processor speed probably won't matter for the apps I'll be running, so the major points are price and battery life, I guess.

[Tapewolf]

While I could find mentioned OO.org, FF, Skype, email, Wikipedia lookup, and google docs, nothing I found covered the rest of the 40 or so apps that are advertised to come preinstalled on the Eee PC.(nothing beyond that it's educational/entertainment software...)

Also in the vein of software, do any of the above apps include a client to access AIM or YIM, or is there a client for either that I can install myself?

In 'Easy Mode' you can get to a terminal by pressing House-T.  From there, if you know Debian/Ubuntu, you can apt-get install other packages, or run them if you know the name already.
Most of the stock KDE3.5 apps come preinstalled anyway, though they are not accessible through the 'Easy' menu system.  There is a way to activate the Start menu without switching the whole thing into 'Expert Mode', though, which is useful.

IIRC it does ship with an IM client of some kind, but I forget which one.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

possibly pidgin. If not, you can always install that, which will talk on any of (from their page):
    *  AIM
    * Bonjour
    * Gadu-Gadu
    * Google Talk
    * Groupwise
    * ICQ
    * IRC
    * MSN
    * MySpaceIM
    * QQ
    * SILC
    * SIMPLE
    * Sametime
    * XMPP
    * Yahoo!
    * Zephyr

...

[Reese Tora]

Ah, found the manuals on ASUS's website include a list of software.  Yeah, it comes with pidgin.  I hope it's a new enough version that AOL hasn't managed to block it from working yet. (seriously, AOL, some people don't like your stoopid UI, get over it. )

A lot of the other software is really neat, too, like a star map and virtual planetarium and stuff, another selling point, IMO... and no blatant shovelware! (well, all the penguin/Tux branded games and stuff, but those aren't likely to phone home like the junk games that HP preinstalls...)

--edit--

ooh, I got my Eee on thursday, been messing with it a little (work has to come first, unfortunately)

It's not quite as fast to boot as some have advertised, but it's still pretty quick at 20-25 seconds.  I have had a few problems, but one seems to be common for 901 users, and the others I can work around.

The common one is that the wireless will get stuck at 'pending' because it doesn't recieve a response to it's DHCP requests, and the fix I have yet to try is rebooting the WAP... I encountered this on my home network, but it cleared up through a different workaround (restarting the computer).  The other palce I encountered it was at my sister's apartment, but I havn't been back there since thursday to try the fix.

The other problems are thus:
The wireless connection will quietly fail after the Eee has been on for a little bit, restarting the connection seems to fix this until next reboot,a nd it may be conencted to the common problem
the games don't seem to have instructions or manuals; not a problem with the obvious clone games like L-Tris and Supertux or the common ones like sudoku and mahjongg, but some of the other games are not obvious.  And, of course, the software manual only says how to get to the games, not how to play them.

Everything else has been pretty straight forward and obvious, like the network setup and so on, or atleast had decent instructions in the manual.