[comic] Gabriel, pg.6 [02-08-'10]

[Turnsky]

There's not really much here I can comment on, except for this little tidbit;

I don't like to draw breasts as hemispheres, nor do I like to place them high on the chest. I see a lot of artists do that, and it drives me up the wall: it's like they're floating. As I understand it, they should only look like that if the figure is wearing a pushup bra, or corset. Am I wrong on this?

I'd say that's an artistic license + attraction thing. They are more prominent/noticeable and therefore more "desireable" if they are high up (and, if closely inspected, seem as if they defy gravity. I'd say that's simply a side-effect.)

At least, that's the way it is to me. I can't say I'm speaking for anyone else...

this is my personal opinion, and a somewhat jaded one at that (from years of dealing with keenspace/comicgen forumites), that "artistic license" only really applies if one is capable of more than one "style".
I know you know this, WF, so forgive me for saying it, or even if the tone's somewhat blunt, it's not meant to be that way (it's just hard to express it in any other fashion), but Breasts, by physical definition, are sacks of fat, gravity affects them, anything firm affects them, they'll try to conform to whatever's resisting their free movement.  In other words: boobs are squishy and soft. 

while i'm at it, this is more an observation than a nitpick, and i'm willing to bet it's "narrative causality" ("it's like this because i said so"), but Theonor's constantly color/form-shifting wings is kind of distracting and may look like you haven't settled on a design/color scheme for him from the perspective of a new reader, it is kinda offputting, however.

Nitpicks aside, you are showing that you're learning things, ontop of this is patience, and it's showing in your linework.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I'm not sure what the right arty words are for what I'm trying to say, here.

You know... feedback doesn't always need to be technical. Most of the technical stuff I can look up in guides and reference books, or I can google for reference images, or I can look at other peoples work and see what they do. What I can't do is take a look at my own art, and judge what's working and what isn't. I'm too close to it, so I can't see the forrest for the trees. So, even just hearing that something looks off is very useful.

True. My point was, however, that I might not be as clear in my description as I was attempting to manage; hence, queries or discussion were welcome, and I'd do my best to clarify the confusion.

You're right about one thing, boxy. I intended the lower arm in panel 2 to be just resting under the bust, not actually pushing it up, but her bicep would have to be about 50% longer then it should be to do that. Also, if her bust overlaps her arms when seen from the front, it would be impossible for the raised arm *not* to push her breast aside. I must have been lazy when I figured out the pose.

Just one thing? Man, I was trying for three... ;-]

I did some sketching this afternoon. About three pages, but I could use feeback on these two in particular:

Pinup [NSFW: Nudity]
The biceps length thing is really noticeable. I think the raised arm-and-boob came out pretty well, though. I think the nip on the right should be higher, though, since she has her back arched and the view has a bit of up shot to it.

No, I think you got it about right.

It's difficult to tell from the sketch, of course, due to multiple lines; if it were inked, it might be easier to tell precisely where the lines were supposed to go, but it certainly looks about right. And, if I might so express myself, this pair look a lot more realistic than the pair on the comic; that pair make me sidle away, because not only are they fake, but they're disturbingly so. This pair, on the other hand, look a lot more realistic.

Profile[NSFW: Nudity]
This is how I imagine Emmie's breasts ought to be shaped, compared to Turn's sketchs. The top has a gentle slope and the underside is roundly curved, and the majority of the mass is below the armpit.

I don't like to draw breasts as hemispheres, nor do I like to place them high on the chest. I see a lot of artists do that, and it drives me up the wall: it's like they're floating. As I understand it, they should only look like that if the figure is wearing a pushup bra, or corset. Am I wrong on this?

On the other hand, I'm probably wrong about how the nipple is placed, as it should sit a little higher up on the chest, and point more upward.

I think you're getting there, now. The sketches are a lot closer to realistic than the strip, if that helps; I don't know if the time spent is something you can do on a regular basis, though...

And if you get someone to stand in that position for you, you'll see that it's not possible to...

Scuse me. *goes and gets his wife to stand in that position*

Yeah.

That had to be the biggest WTF moment I've had on this board.

Wot? I had a query, I went and asked my wife to assist me with it. She obliged, I came back and reported the results.

Seems perfectly sane to me...

As for sagginess, I would expect, if they're fake, for them to be perkier than would normally be possible.

I could say more on this, but it's something that I wanted to bring up further on in the comic. For what it's worth; truth is beauty, and what is truthful is not always what is factual.

Heh. No, I don't expect hers to be real... but, if she were faking it, as I understand it many Succubi do, then I'd expect her to get it a lot more right.

... which gently suggests that while she might have it right, the artist might be needing some work. Which is why we find ourselves here, discussing this wonderfully distracting subject...  ;-]

[WhiteFox]

I don't want to argue about style... if only because I agree with Turnsky. I would like to mention my own thoughts on the matter, however, if only for the fact that I think it's worth consideration.

this is my personal opinion, and a somewhat jaded one at that (from years of dealing with keenspace/comicgen forumites), that "artistic license" only really applies if one is capable of more than one "style"...

Using "style" in defence is like pleading insanity in court. You still did what you did, and you're off the hook, but that doesn't mean you were right to do it, and you're certainly not going get any respect for it.

My opinion on style is that the fundamentals have to come first. Learn the rules, then learn how to break them. I try to work with real human and animal anatomy, and if I ever cite "style" (EG: nipples) as a defence, it's because of how I chose to combine the two elements. Not to excuse a fault with my skills. But in the end, I know I don't know enough of the rules to get away with doing whatever I want.

...Theonor's constantly color/form-shifting wings is kind of distracting...

This is where I wont use "style" as a defence. Here I am, trying to do something with Theo's wings, and I'm well within my rights to do whatever I want with my characters and my art. But if what I'm doing looks like crap, I can do one of three things: Do it anyway, stop doing it, or find a way to do it better.

Which is how "style" ends up getting most abused. People are using individualism as an excuse to do something poorly. And they have the right to. But that doesn't mean anyone else will like it.

But that's what feedback is for. If people don't like it, change it. That might mean taking someone's suggestions, or ignoring all the advice and finding a new way independently, but it still means something has to change.

I think I'm going to keep the color-shifting element, but I need to start picking better colors. Also, I need to draw his wings more consistently. They're not supposed to change in shape at all... except for the bat wing thing. I do have a pretty solid definition as to how and when the wings change in shape and color, though. Strong feelings are higher saturation, I know when the bat wings come out, and there's a logic behind there being two colors for the feathered wings.

... which gently suggests that while she might have it right, the artist might be needing some work.

Very true. But there's more to Emeline's appearance then simply my (in)ability to draw her: Emeliné has made her bust just a touch saggy, but I've been drawing it too saggy, I guess.

The sketches are a lot closer to realistic than the strip, if that helps; don't know if the time spent is something you can do on a regular basis, though...

I don't have a full time job. I get some petty cash from my parents for some odd work, and I bum a room in my brother's apartment. Every day, I walk down to a cafe or fast food place, and sketch/draw/ink for 5-6 hours in the afternoon. I'm kind of bohemian, I guess: live cheap, make art. Time is pretty much the one thing I do have.

[Turnsky]

...Theonor's constantly color/form-shifting wings is kind of distracting...

This is where I wont use "style" as a defence. Here I am, trying to do something with Theo's wings, and I'm well within my rights to do whatever I want with my characters and my art. But if what I'm doing looks like crap, I can do one of three things: Do it anyway, stop doing it, or find a way to do it better.

Which is how "style" ends up getting most abused. People are using individualism as an excuse to do something poorly. And they have the right to. But that doesn't mean anyone else will like it.

But that's what feedback is for. If people don't like it, change it. That might mean taking someone's suggestions, or ignoring all the advice and finding a new way independently, but it still means something has to change.

I think I'm going to keep the color-shifting element, but I need to start picking better colors. Also, I need to draw his wings more consistently. They're not supposed to change in shape at all... except for the bat wing thing. I do have a pretty solid definition as to how and when the wings change in shape and color, though. Strong feelings are higher saturation, I know when the bat wings come out, and there's a logic behind there being two colors for the feathered wings.

[/quote]

hence why i cited the use of "narrative causality" since you have potentially a storyline element behind it, and not so much a "style" element as you say.

[WhiteFox]

DSOF #52

Two months since my last page. Aargh. I won't bore you with the details, but having to move out of an apartment can really become an ordeal.

The comic is a bit of a mess, since I've been working on it in... well, less then ideal conditions. Somehow, I lost 1/2 an inch of page height. Don't know how that happened, but it isn't detrimental to the page overall so I'm not going to sweat it.

Critique and comments appreciated, as usual.

[techmaster-glitch]

Can it be...finally a new DSOF?!?

...Apparently not. The comic won't load for some reason, all I'm getting is a little white box with a red X Curse my apparently-crappy computer setup.

[WhiteFox]

The comic won't load for some reason, all I'm getting is a little white box with a red X

Try it now.

Can anyone else see the comic?

[SpottedKitty]

Got it OK.

Hmm, Felix/Felicia is just not having any luck at all, is she? Nice to see Emmie is actually competent at looking after herself.

Good to hear you're settled in enough to restart the strip. I remember how long it took to get things back to what passes for normal the last time we moved.

[techmaster-glitch]

ah yes, that worked.

Heh. Felix/cia needs to learn a little thing called "subtlety"...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Try it now.

Can anyone else see the comic?

It worked fine for me, both before and after. Or, at least, when I first looked, and then when you asked just now...

[ChaosMageX]

So, I don't get it.  Did Felixia teleport in just as Jade and Theo teleported out?

[WhiteFox]

So, I don't get it.  Did Felixia teleport in just as Jade and Theo teleported out?

Well, you see, I employed an ancient writing technique known as "Character Appears Suddenly out of Nowhere."

It'll be explained. In the comic. Later.

Speaking of which;
DSOF #53: (The title is an in-joke.)

Evidently, all the work I did trying to better my BG's was wasted on architecture but effective for forestry.   As time intensive as the page was, it was fun to draw. The only reason I stopped, I think, was that I learned enough colouring this page that wanted to start drawing #54. And, ya' know, I was a week late.

Sometimes I wonder if people notice the little details I put in the comic, like the lizards in panel #3.

Anyway, Comments and critique appreciated. Especially this time around.

[EDIT, PS:] Bonus points to whoever can guess which comic author I got the idea of a winged frog from. Hint: There were no raccoons in the scene, but Samuel Clemmens was.

[bradypodidae]

John Peters has flying frogs in Gypsy!

I do appreciate attention to detail. Unfortunately, my laptop is woefully inadequate when it comes to screen resolution.

I am thoroughly enjoying the story and the art. One of the benefits I did not know that came with being a denizen of CMF was the introduction to other talent.

I get lucky like that, sometimes.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Heh. I guess Oggy the bog dragon doesn't count, then.

[WhiteFox]

John Peters has flying frogs in Gypsy!

I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few instances of flying frogs in ficiton, but there is one particular author I have in mind. Well, one particular scene of one particular comic book series by one particular author. Chances are it's far to obscure for anyone to recognize.

Further hint: Samuel was talking to the Emperor of the United States in said scene. Neither of them are the main characters in the series.

I am thoroughly enjoying the story and the art.

Glad you're enjoying the show. Thank you for watching.

One of the benefits I did not know that came with being a denizen of CMF was the introduction to other talent.

{!)

Talent? Me? When did that happen?!

llearch: Any other guesses, then?

[bradypodidae]

I enjoy American history, particularly the Civil War, and the Emperor of the United States struck a bell; California 1859. So I cheated and googled, finding an interesting DC comic. Since I did cheat, I will say no more in case someone more reputable wishes to take a guess.



Of course, the safe bets are I'm way off base and completely wrong.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

llearch: Any other guesses, then?

Nothing comes to mind.

[WhiteFox]

So I cheated and googled, finding an interesting DC comic. Since I did cheat, I will say no more in case someone more reputable wishes to take a guess.

Of course, the safe bets are I'm way off base and completely wrong.

I don't call that cheating, that's investigating a lead. So feel free to guess.

The Emperor is probably more obscure then the book, for that matter.

It is an interesting series. There's a lot of history and mythology in it too, if you like that sort of thing.

[bradypodidae]

[EDIT, PS:] Bonus points to whoever can guess which comic author I got the idea of a winged frog from. Hint: There were no raccoons in the scene, but Samuel Clemmens was.

Sandman, Neil Gaiman?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Sandman is not what I'd call obscure.

Anything but.


Nucking futz, but not obscure.

[WhiteFox]

Sandman is indeed the correct answer.

Sandman is not what I'd call obscure.

Nucking futz, but not obscure.

No one I mention it to ever knows the series. Well, a scant few, but always in a I've-herd-of-it-but-haven't-read-it sort of way. Or they're over 50, and read it a long time ago.

Besides, even if the series is only somewhat obscure, the reference certainly was.

I should get back to drawing comics instead of geeking out, though, shouldn't I?

[WhiteFox]

Took me long enough...

DSOF #54

Comic production has been complicated by some brand new hardware; I've replaced my aging eMac with a MacMini. I'm satisfied with the computer, but the (cheap and old) LCD monitor I'm now using has me worried. The colour balance is completely different, and the comic looks completely different. Jade's robe, for example is supposed to be dark crimson and gold. Now it's more of a much lighter pure red, and the yellow is much colder.

There's a lot of discrepancies in the shading, too. The contrast of pg.53's background plants, rocks, and dirt are much higher, which makes them pop out a lot more then I'd like. There are also quite a few places where the shading looks shoddier and hasty, particularly on the characters, and places where there doesn't seem to be any shading at all.

So now I have to figure out if I need a new monitor, or if I have to overhaul all my colour pallets. Aargh. Spite. Wrath. Muffins. I'll have to look at the comic on some other peoples monitors and compare.

Anyway... critique and comments appreciated.

[Tapewolf]

The MacOS has its own internal colour management.  Are you sure both machines are running the same colour profile?

As for the comic, yes, Theo seemed to be a little bit carried away with his vision there.

[WhiteFox]

The MacOS has its own internal colour management.  Are you sure both machines are running the same colour profile?

I went through colour calibration twice. Minor improvement.

The old monitor was a flat-screen CRT. This "new" one is an Acer LCD widescreen with a crappy viewing angle that my parents had lying around. About a third of the screen is notably darker then the rest.

[Tapewolf]

The old monitor was a flat-screen CRT. This "new" one is an Acer LCD widescreen with a crappy viewing angle that my parents had lying around. About a third of the screen is notably darker then the rest.

Ah.

I read it that you had kept the same monitor and the new PC had a different colour temperature.  What you are describing is fairly normal for switching to LCD, which is why I haven't.
The LCD screen I do have has taken on a yellow hue for reasons unknown to me - my guess is that the screen has gone that way due to age.  It was about 3 years old when it started to do that.

EDIT:

Also, bear in mind that most LCD monitors can only display 262144 colours, which won't help you.  If you can let me know the model I'll see if I can find out whether it's a 6-bit or 8-bit display.

[ChaosMageX]

Not enough time to find a new figurehead.  Damn, from how he's talking, it sounds like what Theo really needs for his plan to succeed is a puppet, someone who will play the part of his figurehead, except do whatever he says.
There are several ways to do that, including compensation, trickery, and, since he comes from a clan skilled in psionics, mind control as well.

And regarding your new monitor, I can agree that LCD monitors just generally suck, but I'm not about to go back to bulky CRTs when I eventually attempt to do digital coloring again.

I can't help but wonder how well a plasma screen TV would work as a computer monitor through an HDMI port.  The Panasonic Viera TVs are the best value, many offering 1080p at a reasonable price, and they definitely have a much sharper picture than LCD screens, and true black color.

The one thing I haven't tested is their viewing angle, but I vaguely remember walking through the aisle and their picture quality not changing as I approached them.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

He could well be talking to his figurehead.

On the other hand, if he takes the role himself, there's a certain risk...

[Tapewolf]

I can't help but wonder how well a plasma screen TV would work as a computer monitor through an HDMI port.

I haven't seen one under 32".  That's far too big to be practical as a computer display.  Which is a shame, because the technology looks good.

[hapless]

Well, you should also consider the "burn-in" damage that happenswhen you display static image on a screen for long time.  And in computer usage you surely will have some static parts on the screen, for example most of the toolbars.
Plasmas were originally extremely susceptible to it, and while nowadays the effect is "minimized", I have no idea how far detached from reality that marketing point is.

[WhiteFox]

Not enough time to find a new figurehead.  Damn, from how he's talking, it sounds like what Theo really needs for his plan to succeed is a puppet, someone who will play the part of his figurehead, except do whatever he says.

Seeing as how the figurehead is being set up to be a fall guy, or "adventurer fodder", I doubt Theo would find many volunteers. That being the case, the figurehead mustn't realize he's a figurehead or he might rat out Theo's to save his own hide when things hit the fan. Complicating things further is that not only does the figurehead have to remain ignorant, but so does everyone else in the organization.

The best puppets can't see their own strings.

I was going to mention this in the comic, but there wasn't enough room on the page.

There are several ways to do that, including compensation, trickery, and, since he comes from a clan skilled in psionics, mind control as well.

Wow, someone actually remembered that tidbit about the psionics. Cool.

Theonors psionics, and Clan Aphelals as a whole, are somewhat akin to brainwashing or mental conditioning; over an extended period of time, the effects may break down or become unreliable. Extensive application may make the subject mentally unstable.

The brain is not simply a computer that can be programmed, so precise control is nearly impossible to achieve. Theo can bury or alter memories, but not destroy them. He can make suggestions, but not give commands. The more you push the mind, the sooner it will snap back or just plain snap. Since Theo's projects can have a timeline measured in decades, and politics can be a delicate thing, psionic manipulation is not a long term solution.

Here's a freebie for being observant, though: not all of Theo's psionic abilites are restricted to mental manipulation. They're not simply an extension of a 'Cubi's natural empathic powers (Though I like to think Theo has a stronger natural aptitiude with then most 'Cubi).

He could well be talking to his figurehead.

Ooh. I hadn't considered that one.

Jade, however, wouldn't make a very good candidate for a variety of reasons. Reasons which are, actually, kind of central to the comic, so I'm not going to cover them in depth.

I will say that Theo needs three things in a figurehead: they have to know the game of politics. Specifically, 1) they have to know the rules of the game, 2) they have to be willing to play it, and 3) they have to be very bad at it. Jade has none of these traits. Actually, she's kind of the opposite.

Well, you should also consider the "burn-in" damage that happenswhen you display static image on a screen for long time.  And in computer usage you surely will have some static parts on the screen, for example most of the toolbars.

It's not much of a problem these days, as long as you have a screen saver of some sort and put your computer to sleep when you're not using it. As far as I know, that is.

Also, bear in mind that most LCD monitors can only display 262144 colours, which won't help you.  If you can let me know the model I'll see if I can find out whether it's a 6-bit or 8-bit display.

An Acer AL1716W. I googled around a bit for documentation, but I didn't find anything useful. Also: Acer = teh sucjk.

And regarding your new monitor, I can agree that LCD monitors just generally suck, but I'm not about to go back to bulky CRTs when I eventually attempt to do digital coloring again.

Actually, my brother has a nice one; a Samsung 216BW. The blacks are strong, and the viewing angle is remarkably wide (he bought it to replace the one I'm using now, incidentally). So I know there are decent LCD screens available. If I had the coin for it, I'd get one.

I took a look at my comic on his monitor, and there's the same difference in contrast. So it's not just my monitor, it's the colours I'm using. Cripes... my colouring is bad enough as it is, I really don't need this making it worse.