4.0

[Rakala]

It's finally released! And yes, I am talking about Dungeons and Dragons. I got the book and I've looked over alot of things. It seems to be... not much different, but I haven't read the whole things yet.

[Azriel]

....not much different its a radical change to the game, just look at character classes themselves and how they progress

[techmaster-glitch]

Huh. Found this rant over at the Misfile comic:

I'm going to preface this by saying that I've been playing D&D for over 20 years now. I've played every edition from Basic, AD&D, 2nd edition, 3.0, and 3.5. I've played more other systems than I care to remember, and I've played in bad games with people I don't like just to be able to play. That being said... I think I hate 4th edition.

I was initially pissed off that 4th edition was coming out so soon after 3rd. Wizards of the coast argues that it's been 8 years since edition 3.0, but neglect to point out that they hit us with 3.5 in the middle of that 8 year period and forced us to re-buy all the core rule books, so in reality it's only been a few years since the last edition. That being said, I was willing to give it a chance. I started hearing things about the new edition I didn't like. Messing with the core races and classes and other things that made it feel a bit "un-D&D" to me. I was pretty down on the whole thing when I picked up the preview books. Having read the previews, I actually became cautiously optimistic. They changes were explained and seemed less radical than before and I decided to withhold any further judgment until I'd actually PLAYED the new edition. I bought my new PHB on Thursday and started to become wary once again. The whole thing seems a bit too "video gamey" in feel to me. It felt difficult to create a unique character, and I felt as thought Clerics had lost their uniqueness and purpose and Arcane caster has been TOTALLY screwed. Still, I reserved judgment.

On Saturday, I played it, and my worst fears were confirmed. The party Cleric seemed to have no purpose. There was no reason to bother playing a wizard at all. Later, my feelings on the video game feel of $e were confirmed by the owner of the hobby shop, who said Wizards was trying to win over people from the MMORPG crowd. The pen and paper version of D&D is not a video game. It will never be a video game. There is already a D&D video game. Pen and paper games will never attract swaths of video gamers no matter how many MMORPG terms like tank and healer you adjust in the books. As far as I'm concerned, Wizards is merely alienating their core supporters in a misguided attempt to pursue a group they cannot win over.

I will happily continue playing 3.5 for the foreseeable future. Luckily, in the great "Wizards of the Coast: Quest for more money", I'm sure they'll spring version 4.5 on us in two years time, and hopefully some of these glaring issues will be addressed. Better yet, perhaps they'll scrap most of the concepts in 4.0 in their entirely and make a system that is fun to play and that appeals to people who actually PLAY their games rather than just computer gamers.

Just thought I'd share.

[gh0st]

i never played d&d, i think that it would be kinda cool to try but just by hearing about 4.0 i'm thinking of just starting with 3.5 or 3.0, what would you guys suggest

[Reese Tora]

i never played d&d, i think that it would be kinda cool to try but just by hearing about 4.0 i'm thinking of just starting with 3.5 or 3.0, what would you guys suggest

Find a group that you want to join, find out what they are playing, and go with that.

My personal preference, and the decision of the group I am in, is to stay with 3.5, and for the primary reason being that we have all invested pretty heavily into the 3 and 3.5 books.  4th is definently very different from 3.5 in some ways, but either one will require the same level of spending, and there's an advantage in 4th edition in that Wizards is just starting to print them. (insrtead of ending it)

If you're planning on starting your own group, get the group together first and discuss what edition you're interested with playing with them.  While it;'s only necessary for a group to own one set of books, I find it useful for multiple people to own sets in a group, and your other group members may want to get thier own books, so this has an effect on them.

If you go 3.5, I'd recommend picking up any books you find of interest quyickly, while they are still available.  If you go 4th, you only have a few books available to buy and more will likely become available over a long period of time,a llowing you buy buy at your leisure.

[Darkmoon]

This is why I made my own game.

[Azlan]

It feels like an MMORPG... whoo, I can magic missile forever

In this instance, fire may be the answer.

[Reese Tora]

Just an update, I am apparently playing in a 4th edition game this coming thursday. I may post my thoughts friday.
(my sister's SO has bought the books and I have been 'drafted' to play, not that I mind.)

[Rakala]

Honestly, each system seems to be easier to play so I would start with 4.0 but you do miss out on many classes.

As far as changes to the game, I'm glad they replaced the bard with the warlord. People will actually play the warlord. People will complain about the monk dissapearing but I think the monk should be saved for Oriental Adventures.

[Reese Tora]

cross-posted from BnG...

OK, Since I have now played 4th edition, I will psot my thoughts...

we only actually did one thing involving the rules, one combat (plus a few skill checks) and we were playing a 4th edition modile that had been released before the core books

I was playing a rogue, and, we had a cleric, paladin, ranger, and wizard, and we were ambushed by a group of kobolds.

So far as the general rules go, it was pretty much the same as 3/3.5, they just renamed stuff. I don't know how I feel about the fact they moved the saving throw from the defender to be an attack roll by the attacker (saving throws aparently still exist to end ongoing effects, though)

The classes, this is the big difference, they classes are not in any way shape or form analogs of thier 2nd through 3.5 edition counterparts. Not better or worse, but different. (they're not really comperable, since they start off with about three levels worth of HP compared to 3.5)

Given the nature of the fight, as a sort of primer first combat for new players, I didn't really get a feel for how deadly combat is, and we didn't get to test many of the rules changes (our wizard cast only as many spells as a 3.5 wizard would have been able to at 1st level, and failed his attack rolls(!) for magic missle)

The other stuff, we did was basic skill checks ('spot' 'gather information' and 'diplomacy', renamed for no aparent reason in 4th edition.) which is, again, just like 3rd of 3.5 skill checks.

at this point, I really havn't seen enough of the system to pass judgement, so I'm going to continue to keep an open mind

One definite improvement was moving the description of conditions like blind and invisisible into the combat section of the PHB instead of being in an obscure glossary.

[Lushin]

This is coming from a friend who got the prelease game books. "Oh go they turned it into a WoW tabletop game." That being said I have a few hundred dollars worth of 3.5 books and won't be playing 4.0 anytime soon.

[Rakala]

I must ask this question to all the D&D players, what is the first thing you look at when you buy a new book? I always look at classes first, then races, spells, and any new rules. In that order.