2013/02/22 [DMFA #1380] Two month time limit

[Jasae Bushae]

Wow.... @_@ thats some pretty good indication that its been nearly a week...this only makes it more likly that dan will return before this is resolved (or not since hes very specifically not there)

Unfortunately, Pyroduck's mother is dead.

And actually I meant the phoenix who raised him ^^; http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1345.php Her testimony as an oracle should be just as effective as the one their already working with (though it might just throw both testimonies out the window for all i know ^^; )

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

If he does return, Abel might find it handy to have help from a pro.

Given how well Dan and Abel work together (case in point, the gardening), I'm not really sure Abel would be any better off with Dan present...

[Tylor]

Can that phoenix be Destania in disguise?

[Starcat5]

But...Pyroduck mentioned that Hizel told him he could be acnowledged as his son if he was to kill 1000 cubi and it makes me toss out the wild theory of...Could Pyroduck have a half brother? o.O I mean, who knows how many kids that guy had

Though onto that other focus, it might be possible that his other siblings might be alive as well and have similar requirements as Ducky has in order to be excepted as their fathers child.

My personal pet theory is that all the children "Daddy" claimed were "destroyed" are in fact still alive.

[Jasae Bushae]

im still baffled by the original phoenix testimony since amber said shapeshifters cant copy em ^^;

[Starcat5]

im still baffled by the original phoenix testimony since amber said shapeshifters cant copy em ^^;

Dee said the whole thing was set up as a "Hit". Maybe the Phoenix in question is a Phoenix, and is on the Twink payroll?

[Tapewolf]

im still baffled by the original phoenix testimony since amber said shapeshifters cant copy em ^^;

Yes, but suppose they didn't see the phoenix at all?  If you had a way to patch their memories so they believed they had seen the oracle and been given that advice, physical appearances wouldn't matter.
Destania was able to do something very similar to Abel when he was asleep at the academy by altering his dreams - we can't rule out that she didn't do something like that to them while they were staying at an inn or something.

[Dressari]

im still baffled by the original phoenix testimony since amber said shapeshifters cant copy em ^^;

Yes, but suppose they didn't see the phoenix at all?  If you had a way to patch their memories so they believed they had seen the oracle and been given that advice, physical appearances wouldn't matter.
Destania was able to do something very similar to Abel when he was asleep at the academy by altering his dreams - we can't rule out that she didn't do something like that to them while they were staying at an inn or something.

Wouldn't a mind shield prevent that or alert them at the very least? I'd figure it would.

[Tapewolf]

Wouldn't a mind shield prevent that or alert them at the very least? I'd figure it would.

Not if you're asleep at an inn.  Also I was under the impression that they only had the mind-shields running when they were hunting 'Cubi, not 24/7.  After all, they're not 'Cubi, the ability isn't innate.  They have to cast special spells and keep them maintained, or use deliberate mental exercises.

[Mrs_A_ZeTavia]

I did my own estimate here, and I'll repeat the brief part of it that's relevant to this discussion:

Remember that the Soulstealer party occurred on a Thursday, and the next day Dan made plans to attend SAIA, and then he left the day after, on Saturday.  Later, on the very same day Dan left, Abel mentioned that next Friday would be his 400th birthday.

This means that Dan has been at SAIA for at least 6 days now.  If another day has already passed between the end of the fight with the BOB and the current strip (although there isn't much if any evidence to support that as far as I can tell, but I might have missed something), then Dan has been at SAIA a full week by the time of this strip.

All this talk of timeline and dates in the comic, reminds me of the reason why I'm adding dates (Example: Saturday, May 12, 2032) to some of my pages in my webcomic (still in conception phase, but am writing whatever is solid).

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong if you chose to not do something like that, but personally with my A.D.D. and getting distracted a lot this helps me, as a reminder where I am and to better follow my own timeline I am creating. Especially, since this particular timeline spans through several years, this has been a big help for me.

There are a lot of webcomics, comics or books that don't include proper dates, but can still be followed and understood fine. This is merely something that I am doing as a personal choice.

im still baffled by the original phoenix testimony since amber said shapeshifters cant copy em ^^;

Yes, but suppose they didn't see the phoenix at all?  If you had a way to patch their memories so they believed they had seen the oracle and been given that advice, physical appearances wouldn't matter.
Destania was able to do something very similar to Abel when he was asleep at the academy by altering his dreams - we can't rule out that she didn't do something like that to them while they were staying at an inn or something.

I have to agree that this is quite possible or as another person has mentioned that phoenix could have been given money as a pay off.

Or perhaps, since the phoenix oracle in question could not get a clear read with whatever is blocking things from their sight, it could of just put together whatever it could understand and read fine in a spur of the moment, kinda reading between the lines sort of speak. I mean the B.O.B did interrupt it's lunch break, it could have scrambled for something to say because it was annoyed.

Sometimes people do say the first things that pop into there head on the spur of the moment, believe me I've done that before myself.

[Shadowdancer]

...
hmm...wait...whats to stop them from just bringing them along to visit pyroducks mama and asking her about it so that she can confirm that they dont know? O.o cubi-ness aside, the oracles testimony is they had against him...(unless they also expect him to catch the killer...)
...

I believe Jasae is talking about Pyroduck's phoenix mama (wow, he has three. Never thought of it that way!)

That could be an interesting conversation.
"Where were you on the night of the murder?"  
"I was in the place of heart before that which consumes.."  
"Uh, yeah, sure. Whatever lady!"  

What would Wildy do if she was discredited? I don't want to know. It wouldn't be pretty.  

[joshofspam]

Wouldn't a mind shield prevent that or alert them at the very least? I'd figure it would.

Not if you're asleep at an inn.  Also I was under the impression that they only had the mind-shields running when they were hunting 'Cubi, not 24/7.  After all, they're not 'Cubi, the ability isn't innate.  They have to cast special spells and keep them maintained, or use deliberate mental exercises.

Isn't mucking around memories like that dangerous though?

Sure, she was doing that most likely with Abel the first time she tried to manipulate him. But it seemed like a subtle touch. Invoking a scene from his current memory, bringing in an image of his dead friend to slightly pull the dream in a direction she could manipulate and try to influence his mind the way she wanted. Basically seemingly that Abel wouldn't be able to tell if it was real or not, but it would definitely influence some of his next choice.

The whole Phoenix encounter sounds like something that would require bull doggedly pushing an entire encounter  to make four people think a constructed dream was a memory  and not a dream. Wasn't it hinted by Fa'lina that memory manipulation at even below that is dangerous.

[ChaosMageX]

Wouldn't a mind shield prevent that or alert them at the very least? I'd figure it would.

Not if you're asleep at an inn.  Also I was under the impression that they only had the mind-shields running when they were hunting 'Cubi, not 24/7.  After all, they're not 'Cubi, the ability isn't innate.  They have to cast special spells and keep them maintained, or use deliberate mental exercises.

Isn't mucking around memories like that dangerous though?

Sure, she was doing that most likely with Abel the first time she tried to manipulate him. But it seemed like a subtle touch. Invoking a scene from his current memory, bringing in an image of his dead friend to slightly pull the dream in a direction she could manipulate and try to influence his mind the way she wanted. Basically seemingly that Abel wouldn't be able to tell if it was real or not, but it would definitely influence some of his next choice.

The whole Phoenix encounter sounds like something that would require bull doggedly pushing an entire encounter  to make four people think a constructed dream was a memory  and not a dream. Wasn't it hinted by Fa'lina that memory manipulation at even below that is dangerous.

Honestly, that's what still irks me the most about this whole situation as well.  No matter how you slice it Destania managed to railroad four separate and relatively teratophobic* individuals into receiving and believing specific disinformation from a seemingly reputable source that would drive them to accomplish a predefined task by an exact date.

The dream theory is a possibility, but it wasn't just implied but explicitly stated by Kish'Ta in her letter to me that dream manipulation is somewhat limited.  And let's not forget that in general dreams, especially recent ones, only feel real when you're in them, but it's only after you've woken up that you realize that something was amiss.  It would take some powerful manipulation to get four people to have a shared dream that they would mistake for a real memory after waking up.  That's not to say someone as cunning and experienced as Destania, backed with Cyra's power, couldn't play off the BOB's fears in just the right way to get away with it, but it still seems highly improbable.

I'm more for the theories that Destania was either impersonating a phoenix or bribing a real one into giving the BOB disinformation at the right time.







* This actually means fear of monsters or deformed people.  Kudos to anyone who can manage to find a more appropriate -phobia word for fear of Creatures.  Either way, I'm just using a word that would imply they'd at least try to have their guard up (albeit incompetently) against manipulation by Creatures.

EDIT:
Also, who's to say there aren't mind shield spells that last all night long?  Maybe something along the lines of an enchanted dream catcher?    Sure, it could be broken, but the Cubi would still have to take all the risks of entering their room and breaking it and possibly waking them up in the process of doing so.

[Tapewolf]

Isn't mucking around memories like that dangerous though?

Sure, she was doing that most likely with Abel the first time she tried to manipulate him. But it seemed like a subtle touch. Invoking a scene from his current memory, bringing in an image of his dead friend to slightly pull the dream in a direction she could manipulate and try to influence his mind the way she wanted. Basically seemingly that Abel wouldn't be able to tell if it was real or not, but it would definitely influence some of his next choice.

I don't know, I thought she had that particular dream pretty much under her control.  As an individual she seems to be pretty skilled and powerful.  Anyway, it's just an idea to get around the fact that you can't shapeshift flames like that - if it wasn't real, all those problems disappear.  Though as you say, they're replaced by new problems.

The whole Phoenix encounter sounds like something that would require bull doggedly pushing an entire encounter  to make four people think a constructed dream was a memory  and not a dream. Wasn't it hinted by Fa'lina that memory manipulation at even below that is dangerous.

That was mind-reading, and mind-reading is dangerous because it involves shapeshifting your tentacles throughout every neuron of the target's entire brain without killing them, and somehow temporarily merging your soul with the target's soul.  Hence, if it goes wrong, you die too.  (See Zezzuva's letter)

[ChaosMageX]

That was mind-reading, and mind-reading is dangerous because it involves shapeshifting your tentacles throughout every neuron of the target's entire brain without killing them, and somehow temporarily merging your soul with the target's soul.  Hence, if it goes wrong, you die too.  (See Zezzuva's letter)

Because we're referencing them, we really should give the links to them for the record:

Kish'ta's Letter on Dream Infiltration and Manipulation

Zezzuva's Letter on Soul Mechanics and Mind-Reading

Also, now that I think about, the letters from Kish'Ta and Piflak really should have been hosted on the same server that's hosting Zezzuva's letter, rather than on Image Shack.  Then again, Image Shack has proven itself more reliable than Photobucket.

EDIT: Links to the rest of the clan leader letters that their recipients were gracious enough to post online can be found in this thread.  That also reminds me that unfortunately we never did get to see the letters from Fa'lina or Nact'larn or Mink, if their line-art recipients did actually ask them questions.

[Amber Williams]

What would Wildy do if she was discredited? I don't want to know. It wouldn't be pretty.  

To be discredited as an adventurer is fairly serious business since it pretty much brands you (literally even! The link through the soulstone can also be used to embed a mark upon the individual's forehead branding them a traitor) which pretty much means that no being settlement will trust you.  You basically become an outcast among beings and most creatures are more than happy to take a potshot at a discredited and now-solo adventurer.

It's why staking your rep is no slouching matter to an adventurer.  To do so basically means you are putting your own life on the line.

[Dressari]

What would Wildy do if she was discredited? I don't want to know. It wouldn't be pretty.  

To be discredited as an adventurer is fairly serious business since it pretty much brands you (literally even! The link through the soulstone can also be used to embed a mark upon the individual's forehead branding them a traitor) which pretty much means that no being settlement will trust you.  You basically become an outcast among beings and most creatures are more than happy to take a potshot at a discredited and now-solo adventurer.

It's why staking your rep is no slouching matter to an adventurer.  To do so basically means you are putting your own life on the line.

Huh, are these soulstones optional or are they pretty much requirement for joining a guild?

[ChaosMageX]

What would Wildy do if she was discredited? I don't want to know. It wouldn't be pretty.  

To be discredited as an adventurer is fairly serious business since it pretty much brands you (literally even! The link through the soulstone can also be used to embed a mark upon the individual's forehead branding them a traitor) which pretty much means that no being settlement will trust you.  You basically become an outcast among beings and most creatures are more than happy to take a potshot at a discredited and now-solo adventurer.

It's why staking your rep is no slouching matter to an adventurer.  To do so basically means you are putting your own life on the line.

This is the first thing that actually came to my mind upon reading that: The Scarlet Letter.  I still can't believe I remember that book from high school, but then again it did have a sexy lady as its central character.

But in all seriousness, I can't help but wonder how often this happens.  If it's often enough, one would think that they would simply find each other and band together into a sequestered community for pariahs, like what the Undead did on Trik'na Island.

EDIT:

Huh, are these soulstones optional or are they pretty much requirement for joining a guild?

That's actually an interesting question.  Can people go adventuring without officially joining a guild?  I mean, honestly, these guilds probably aren't the only way beings band together to stand up to creatures.  As Tapewolf pointed out, there can be extremist groups, terrorist organizations, crime syndicates, anti-wing cults, etc.  However, I wonder, are these adventurer guilds basically the only "legal" way to kill creatures in a sense (possibly officially recognized or even subsidized by the local Being governments), and joining them is sort of basically getting a "license to kill" creatures?

[Dressari]

That's actually an interesting question.  Can people go adventuring without officially joining a guild?  I mean, honestly, these guilds probably aren't the only way beings band together to stand up to creatures.  As Tapewolf pointed out, there can be extremist groups, terrorist organizations, crime syndicates, anti-wing cults, etc.  However, I wonder, are these adventurer guilds basically the only "legal" way to kill creatures in a sense (possibly officially recognized or even subsidized by the local Being governments), and joining them is sort of basically getting a "license to kill" creatures?

Actually if I recall, Azlan was a Fae adventurer as he claimed to be. Would he have had to be registered to a guild to suitably dispense "justice" in furrae. And in Dan's case they must've assumed he was an Angel to start with before a Cubi, are they going to change their outlook on that when they discover it.

This is why I'm slowly disliking the adventuring guilds more and more, it seems the more we learn about them the grimmer things become in understanding how the divide between the Adventures and general creatures actually are.

Even some of the "nicer" guilds and more popular guilds perhaps, appear to have very very strict and one sided rule of engagement and investigation that are always in favor of their fellow Beings. Which means innocent parties are likely to suffer simply because of an "I said so so it must be so" ruling. And they certainly have no problem branding their own fellow Beings as sympathizers and marking them for death if it means removing the problem.

I could understand this line of thinking this more if it was a purely Being settlement, PERHAPS I would if it was a mixed / hybrid settlement. But in isolated areas or even off the road areas such as the Inn, they seem to pretty much distribute their authority without regards to consequences.

And it also makes me considerably worried to Mab's plan, she seems to think this idea of hers is going to balance out the state of powers in Furrae. But with little idea on how that is going to happen or play out, all I can feel this is going to do is give a good number of groups of Beings (Adventures guilds, law enforcement, extremest groups...) too much of a reason to persecute the other races simply because they can. I'd really like to ask her: Once the Being's get their spot in the seat of power... is she sure it's going to stop there, will they plan to overthrow creature settlements for the sake of pressing a point.

Honestly it seems that the adventurers are more than well equipped enough to take a good deal of the creatures roaming around Furrae. I just hope Mab's plan doesn't escalate to the point of seeing other races suddenly oppressed because of a sudden change of powers and abusing it.

[Jasae Bushae]

What would Wildy do if she was discredited? I don't want to know. It wouldn't be pretty.  

To be discredited as an adventurer is fairly serious business since it pretty much brands you (literally even! The link through the soulstone can also be used to embed a mark upon the individual's forehead branding them a traitor) which pretty much means that no being settlement will trust you.  You basically become an outcast among beings and most creatures are more than happy to take a potshot at a discredited and now-solo adventurer.

It's why staking your rep is no slouching matter to an adventurer.  To do so basically means you are putting your own life on the line.

Wow, no wonder Wildy was hesitant to agree to that...That was pretty big of her for someone she really doesn't know that well

[Tapewolf]

Honestly it seems that the adventurers are more than well equipped enough to take a good deal of the creatures roaming around Furrae. I just hope Mab's plan doesn't escalate to the point of seeing other races suddenly oppressed because of a sudden change of powers and abusing it.

Yeah.  In a nutshell, that's why I don't believe Mab's plan is anything like as simple as giving Beings guns to help them out.  They don't seem to need it, and in any case, Jyrras has always preferred the company of Creatures to Beings so I'm not convinced that he'd suddenly make something that could be used to kill his friends.

No, what does seem to need to happen is a complete rebalancing of the system to stop all the groups from being at each other's throats, or at least push it down to background noise.  And that makes me suspect that handguns are only the first step in Mab's plan.  The 'mining machinery' could very well have been her idea.

Realistically I can think of two ways to do that.  One of which is to place the entire world under some form of adult supervision, maybe some kind of world government made up from a coalition of all the races.  The other is to try and unite them against some other threat (IIRC Watchmen used that approach, creating a fake alien invasion to distract the US and the USSR from their attempts to start a nuclear war, but it's been a long, long time since I read it)

[Jasae Bushae]

Honestly it seems that the adventurers are more than well equipped enough to take a good deal of the creatures roaming around Furrae. I just hope Mab's plan doesn't escalate to the point of seeing other races suddenly oppressed because of a sudden change of powers and abusing it.

Yeah.  In a nutshell, that's why I don't believe Mab's plan is anything like as simple as giving Beings guns to help them out.  They don't seem to need it, and in any case, Jyrras has always preferred the company of Creatures to Beings so I'm not convinced that he'd suddenly make something that could be used to kill his friends.

No, what does seem to need to happen is a complete rebalancing of the system to stop all the groups from being at each other's throats, or at least push it down to background noise.  And that makes me suspect that handguns are only the first step in Mab's plan.  The 'mining machinery' could very well have been her idea.

Realistically I can think of two ways to do that.  One of which is to place the entire world under some form of adult supervision, maybe some kind of world government made up from a coalition of all the races.  The other is to try and unite them against some other threat (IIRC Watchmen used that approach, creating a fake alien invasion to distract the US and the USSR from their attempts to start a nuclear war, but it's been a long, long time since I read it)

hmm...while i agree whatever jyrras cooks up is probably not a weapon, i personally can't see either of those solutions really working ^^;

the world government idea...isnt that what the whole shadowy council thing is? has representatives from all the species with each Representative speaking for all the peoples  though their very big on the status quo (which is pretty reasonable for any world power to be fond of since change is risky)

as for the watchman concept...firstly that plan called for the destruction of a city that was blamed on an alien invasion so that the panicked humanity would unite to prepare  for a dangerous threat (which seems a bit overly dark for either jyrras or mab to come up with)
which....really wouldnt work beyond the short term because alliances inevitably break apart after a while (plus there seems more or less to be already a certain cohesiveness its just filled with overwhelming prejudice and mistrust) especially when the expected disaster doesnt come
plus...between phoenix, dragons, demons, the beings adventure guild, cubi, twinks, mega mythos and so on...how scarily powerful would something have to  be to pose a serious threat....that wouldnt nuke the world...aside from fae....which mab is....
hmmmm.....................darn, now im starting to consider it....

[Dressari]

Honestly it seems that the adventurers are more than well equipped enough to take a good deal of the creatures roaming around Furrae. I just hope Mab's plan doesn't escalate to the point of seeing other races suddenly oppressed because of a sudden change of powers and abusing it.

Yeah.  In a nutshell, that's why I don't believe Mab's plan is anything like as simple as giving Beings guns to help them out.  They don't seem to need it, and in any case, Jyrras has always preferred the company of Creatures to Beings so I'm not convinced that he'd suddenly make something that could be used to kill his friends.

No, what does seem to need to happen is a complete rebalancing of the system to stop all the groups from being at each other's throats, or at least push it down to background noise.  And that makes me suspect that handguns are only the first step in Mab's plan.  The 'mining machinery' could very well have been her idea.

Realistically I can think of two ways to do that.  One of which is to place the entire world under some form of adult supervision, maybe some kind of world government made up from a coalition of all the races.  The other is to try and unite them against some other threat (IIRC Watchmen used that approach, creating a fake alien invasion to distract the US and the USSR from their attempts to start a nuclear war, but it's been a long, long time since I read it)

hmm...while i agree whatever jyrras cooks up is probably not a weapon, i personally can't see either of those solutions really working ^^;

the world government idea...isnt that what the whole shadowy council thing is? has representatives from all the species with each Representative speaking for all the peoples  though their very big on the status quo (which is pretty reasonable for any world power to be fond of since change is risky)

as for the watchman concept...firstly that plan called for the destruction of a city that was blamed on an alien invasion so that the panicked humanity would unite to prepare  for a dangerous threat (which seems a bit overly dark for either jyrras or mab to come up with)
which....really wouldnt work beyond the short term because alliances inevitably break apart after a while (plus there seems more or less to be already a certain cohesiveness its just filled with overwhelming prejudice and mistrust) especially when the expected disaster doesnt come
plus...between phoenix, dragons, demons, the beings adventure guild, cubi, twinks, mega mythos and so on...how scarily powerful would something have to  be to pose a serious threat....that wouldnt nuke the world...aside from fae....which mab is....
hmmmm.....................darn, now im starting to consider it....

Two words: Zerg rush >.>

[Tuyu]

Yes, but suppose they didn't see the phoenix at all?  If you had a way to patch their memories so they believed they had seen the oracle and been given that advice, physical appearances wouldn't matter.
Destania was able to do something very similar to Abel when he was asleep at the academy by altering his dreams - we can't rule out that she didn't do something like that to them while they were staying at an inn or something.

Or if one of their group was on Destania's payroll...  (Still suspecting Gen.)

[Pvblivs]

Or perhaps, since the phoenix oracle in question could not get a clear read with whatever is blocking things from their sight, it could of just put together whatever it could understand and read fine in a spur of the moment, kinda reading between the lines sort of speak. I mean the B.O.B did interrupt it's lunch break, it could have scrambled for something to say because it was annoyed.

Sometimes people do say the first things that pop into there head on the spur of the moment, believe me I've done that before myself.

But Da said that no oracle would give an answer like that.  She did not indicate that that was something she did not know.  We are basically given that it was no oracle.