Dragons, Humans, (and possibly Destania)

[Eboreg]

I've been thinking a bit so put on your tinfoil hats people. I've often wondered about the relationship between humans and the world of Furrae. The basic backstory is that they died out a long time ago due to a plague and it was only dragons who are old enough to know that so here's my theory. Dragons are interdimensional, almost god-like creatures so it's inevitable that they'd run into humans sometime.

I've always thought of humans as the epitomy of technological creatures in the DMFA multiverse. That got me wondering, what if, humans never existed in Furrae in the first place? What if, in every part of the multiverse, humans have eventually mass-produced weapons that allowed them to easily kill dragons? What if the resulting power balance made dragons uneasy and, being too attached to their supposed immortality and definite political power, they decided to never enter human-populated worlds?

This would explain why dragons circulated horror stories about humans. If any human managed to travel throughout the multiverse, then the stories would do a lot to curb their technology from expanding to other worlds. They probably didn't even need to make things up.

Now comes the craziest part of the theory, what if Destania found out? What if that fear is part of her plan? What if ... okay, I'm going to lie down now, wake me up when the pink unicorns decide to end my ride in the yellow submacopter.

[KiloFoxx]

interesting theory i suppose, but i don't really think it holds water. after all, it states in Demo 101 that Weres have a "null Magic" human forme. and we HAVE seen a Human traverse into the DMFA multiverse. plus there's JyJy's gun that appeared recently, and his "farming equipment" down in his lab. i think that basically bridges the gap between what humans are generally capable of and the DMFA-verse.

though i do NOT doubt that if it *IS* true, and Destania found out, that she would use it against them. i know that i sure as hell would.

[Eboreg]

interesting theory i suppose, but i don't really think it holds water. after all, it states in Demo 101 that Weres have a "null Magic" human forme.

True but that's not the same as "Human".

and we HAVE seen a Human traverse into the DMFA multiverse.

That was one isolated incident, the kind I figured the Dragons were worried of when they made up the stories.

plus there's JyJy's gun that appeared recently, and his "farming equipment" down in his lab. i think that basically bridges the gap between what humans are generally capable of and the DMFA-verse.

I only said that this always happened in human worlds, not that it never happened in ones without humans.

[Lying Foo]

I'm... fairly sure... humans once existed in Furrae, but I do think it's the dragons that killed them, so you may be on to something there.  I have to refer to Fluffy's exposition here:

"Speaking of which, I should likely point this out.  These lists?  They only cover the range of genetic possibility.  Just because these half-breeds are possible... it doesn't mean they exist.  Many races have their own cultures that look down on particular races so they are less likely to ever hook up.  Case in point: the Weres!  They don't exactly like a lot of the other races save for Beings, Phoenix, and Cubi."

That leaves only Dragons and Mythos.  And there's a species of Mythos for anything that reproduces sexually, so they're sort of up there by default, leaving the former a quite salient omission.

S/he continues:

"This is likely due to there insane paranoia.  Then again, I guess it isn't paranoia when they nearly did get wiped out by another race..."

'Nuff said.

That would put the dragons in the interesting position of having wiped out two races and trying to wipe out two more (three if they have something to do with the Angels dying off, which would fit their "plague" MO)... maybe they're just not allowed in most worlds because they're bulls in a china shop?

[Eboreg]

That would put the dragons in the interesting position of having wiped out two races ...

Humans and what else?

[Tapewolf]

Humans and what else?

They wiped out the vampires.  Whether that was intentional or not is another matter.

[SteelWings]

I've just got to ask, what is with all the hate for dragons in the mab-verse. Why are they regarded as an evil race by so many of the DMFA fans? Yeah there was the Dragon-Cubi war but that was a war, both sides did horriable things right? the Cubi wern't the innocent victems who never raised a weapon against the dragons.

I'm a huge fan of the comic but I'm really confused about this, where in the comic is it explained to us that the dragons are a malevolent race?

[Ignuus66]

I've just got to ask, what is with all the hate for dragons in the mab-verse. Why are they regarded as an evil race by so many of the DMFA fans? Yeah there was the Dragon-Cubi war but that was a war, both sides did horriable things right? the Cubi wern't the innocent victems who never raised a weapon against the dragons.

I'm a huge fan of the comic but I'm really confused about this, where in the comic is it explained to us that the dragons are a malevolent race?

Interesting that you mention it, but IMO people always have sympathy for the underdog, even if infact there are no good sides to a war, and Mab has generally only mentioned evil dragons (other than Pyro) along with the fact that Cubi are in the spotlight of the comic, and being either good or evil, opposing them generally makes a thing appear evil. (or in BoB's case, stupid) This, overall, comes together (espcially the underdog part) to make cubi seem like "the good guys" in most people's view.

[Tapewolf]

I've just got to ask, what is with all the hate for dragons in the mab-verse. Why are they regarded as an evil race by so many of the DMFA fans?

http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_841.php

This certainly isn't helping.  For me one of the big disparities is that the dragons are spread throughout the multiverse, the 'Cubi seem to be confined to just one world which the Dragons and/or Fae can destroy on a whim.

[Ignuus66]

I just noticed, there is a human in the backround of comic 842

[joshofspam]

I just noticed, there is a human in the backround of comic 842

I think that was a dimensional shift between the fae universes and that other universe. It doesn't really seem like it is Furrae or it might be a different time in Furrae's history.

It seems Fae can exist in more then one world at any given time. Or they might be able to slip out of normal time and live a few hours in their realm and go back to the exact moment they left normal space time. Funky!

[SteelWings]

http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_841.php

This certainly isn't helping.  For me one of the big disparities is that the dragons are spread throughout the multiverse, the 'Cubi seem to be confined to just one world which the Dragons and/or Fae can destroy on a whim.

But that comic doesn't really make the dragons sound evil, it just puts them up there in terms of raw power with the Fae. Should we consider the Fae evil like the dragons just because they can break a reality on a whim?

I dunno all this anti dragon stuff just makes me want to hug the first scaley so in so I find ^^

[Ignuus66]

The thing about infinite universes hypothesis, is that it means that there are an infinite amount of anything, including an infinite amount of Fae universes, or an infinite amount of universes where there are an infinite amount of smaller universes in them, of which an infinite have an infinite have infinite universes inside of them, and so on and so forth, thus if the infinite amount of universes holds true then it means that there are an infinite (or indefinable) amount of multiverses above/below our universe, meaning there an infinite amount of multiverses where this can hold true.

101 on why physicists hate infinites

[Amber Williams]

Should we consider the Fae evil like the dragons just because they can break a reality on a whim?

I wouldn't fault anyone if they do.  It would be a fair accusation all things considered. 

[Tzenker]

I've just got to ask, what is with all the hate for dragons in the mab-verse. Why are they regarded as an evil race by so many of the DMFA fans? Yeah there was the Dragon-Cubi war but that was a war, both sides did horriable things right? the Cubi wern't the innocent victems who never raised a weapon against the dragons.

I'm a huge fan of the comic but I'm really confused about this, where in the comic is it explained to us that the dragons are a malevolent race?

Well, one reason is that dragons gain power. It's what they do. They have a lot of the advantages of the fae, but while they lack their nigh invulnerability, there doesn't seem to be a real limit to how much power they can gain.
Between that and the fact that the dragon leaders are ancient indeed (possibly as old or older than Homo sapiens), you get some exceedingly ruthless creatures. For a good example: http://missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1217.php
Regardless of what other evil you do on this mortal coil, using souls like that is just worse by far. Regardless of what you might suffer during your life, you have an eternity awaiting you (presumably). Having that essence stolen/enslaved/devoured/converted into magical energy or fashionable furniture strikes me as even worse than annihilating entire races (which dragons do from time to time too). It makes Dark Pegasus look like an amateur, a mere schoolyard bully.

Such acts of Lovecraftian horror aside, dragons seem pretty sinister in general.
I'm thinking they behave like crime bosses (Mob, triad, Yakuza, etc.), although even more so. When Pyroduck went to be reunited with his father, he was told to go kill for him before he would even be accepted.
Pyroduck seems, so far, unique in being a fairly altruistic dragon. The rest seem to be unlikely to go beyond enlightened self-interest (like Bajorie) at best. They're also noted for being two-faced. You can gain a lot from dealing with a dragon, but once the stakes are higher than your worth to them, they're likely to turn against you.

Pyroduck is proof that the race itself isn't evil, but their culture certainly is. Once the elders are removed from power (possibly via tech revolution), dragonkind might start producing some good people. And they do have the potential for tremendous good.

[Jasae Bushae]

personally i think the whole 'race is evil' broad brushing of strokes is a bit silly ^^; inevitably species are made up of individuals and since individuals who are iredeemably bad and evil are exceedingly rare, an entire race of such people is pretty unlikely. ^^;
Not to mention that examples brought up on this page include implications that fae could wreck whole worlds and a call back to the fact that cubi earned a reputation for killing people to consume their souls for power ups (irregardless that this has in the comic been point out to be the act of individuals like destania who would blindly commit genocide and kill relatives of her enemies over petty grudges)

going back to the original topic of this thread though, im going to put forth the theory that furrae never had humans populating it. Instead any humans sighted were in reality world hoppers or shapeshifters of one sort or another faking it for the lols

[Tapewolf]

personally i think the whole 'race is evil' broad brushing of strokes is a bit silly ^^; inevitably species are made up of individuals and since individuals who are iredeemably bad and evil are exceedingly rare, an entire race of such people is pretty unlikely. ^^;

True, but remember that the Dragon race is non-native to Furrae and are spread throughout the multiverse.  If we imagine that the plane of Furrae was set up or commandeered as some kind of eugenics experiment, it's entirely plausible to assume that the vast majority of the Dragons present - especially those not born locally - do not have the best interests of the natives at heart.

(And yes, I'd be rather suspicious of the Fae as well, though they seem to be more restrained from what we've seen.)

FWIW I have no problem with dragons as a whole, and went to extreme lengths while playing Ultima 9 to avoid harming them, but within the DMFA universe I'm not convinced they're the good guys.

[Amber Williams]

True, but remember that the Dragon race is non-native to Furrae and are spread throughout the multiverse.  If we imagine that the plane of Furrae was set up or commandeered as some kind of eugenics experiment, it's entirely plausible to assume that the vast majority of the Dragons present - especially those not born locally - do not have the best interests of the natives at heart.

To be fair, there is only one dragon in DMFA's universe currently who is a non-native.
All the rest are pretty much born locally.

[Mischa]

Should we consider the Fae evil like the dragons just because they can break a reality on a whim?

I wouldn't fault anyone if they do.  It would be a fair accusation all things considered. 

But the Fae are so cuddly!  At least Mab and Nutmeg are, in my opinion.  X3

[Jasae Bushae]

only one dragon who is non native in furrae? O.o *wonders if it is pip*
well that puts things in an interesting perspective ^^
annnd getting around to looking up the dragons page thingy http://www.missmab.com/Demo/dragon.php more or less says what I did (and in retrospect it doesnt even mention their world hoppingness...

now to ponder over the 'fae being evil is a fair accusation' comment...*gets the clever idea to see what the page on fay says* http://www.missmab.com/Demo/fae.php aaaah.....yeah, i can see how that could be taken as an argument one way or another ^^;

and looking at the demonolegy page theres a section on humans O.o...darn, this discussion would probably be resolved if its contents were known XD

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Not to mention that examples brought up on this page include implications that fae could wreck whole worlds and a call back to the fact that cubi earned a reputation for killing people to consume their souls for power ups (irregardless that this has in the comic been point out to be the act of individuals like destania who would blindly commit genocide and kill relatives of her enemies over petty grudges)

It's been mentioned, I believe, that some of the unsavoury reputation the 'Cubi enjoy is the result of enemies spreading rumours to dehumanise them. That and some of the 'Cubi relishing such, and living down to it.

Grain of salt and all.

[Jasae Bushae]

yeah though its less a case of malicious rumor and more a 'bad apple makes all apples look bad' sorta thingy with the likes of dans granny trying to nom the guardian of a city (and accidentally destroyed said city which she was trying to replace the custodian of) aaryanna's whole 'soul nommy kill adventurers' thing at the beginning and the all the crap abels father (whose name escapes me) pulled....
the nastier cases have a really bad habit of overshadowing the nuttier, sillier and more harmless cases like mink XD
http://www.missmab.com/Comics/Vol_1246.php

[joshofspam]

It's sort of interesting when you think of races coming and going in Furrae.

Demons, Cubi and Angels just sort of popped up one day. Humans are said to have one day existed at one point and possibly killed of in a plague. Vampires had a hard time competing in a world with races that are far more powerful then them and shared prey preferences, which all ended when a dragon flattened them "by Accident" one night in a group meeting. Mows now terrorize the world with hugs and eating people possessions.

It has been considered on the forum that Fae or dragons might have something to do with some of these things on purpose. Things like Furrae is some kind of breeding experiment or some kind of weird nature preserve has crossed my mind before. But also I look at the Mythos and can't help but wonder just how little Dragons and Fae have to do with these and especially the humans.

Maybe it's the environment. If we take the nature of magic in this land for what we have learned thus far, would it be way out there to think that possibly humans would be eventually changed by gradual exposure to this environment? Could it be we simply don't see humans anymore because the humans don't appear human enough to see they still have a legacy here?

[Tapewolf]

It's been mentioned, I believe, that some of the unsavoury reputation the 'Cubi enjoy is the result of enemies spreading rumours to dehumanise them. That and some of the 'Cubi relishing such, and living down to it.
Grain of salt and all.

Yeah, that was from the Taun letters, in fact.

To be fair, there is only one dragon in DMFA's universe currently who is a non-native.
All the rest are pretty much born locally.

That would certainly explain why they didn't destroy the universe when the 'Cubi started to get uppity.