19/08/2011 [Amber Birthday] Mary-Sue

[joshofspam]

Their really should be a novelty song playing in the background.

Wow. Stealing Pegasus Ponies. Jacob really is a villain.

[Tapewolf]

Wow. Stealing Pegasus Ponies. Jacob really is a villain.

I was tempted to add something like "And where did the pony come from?" but I couldn't fit it in easily.
I must also add that it was not my idea to dress Abel in Daryil's clothes.

Finally, there is a high res version here:
http://www.project-future.org/strips/comic/Amber2011-HR.png

[Lurkie]

Oh, that's rich!  DP (even if pony-fied) calling someone else a villain?  BWAAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAA!   On the other hand, that sort of melodramatic dialogue is the sort of thing I'd expect from Dark Pegasus.   

[Tapewolf]

Oh, that's rich!  DP (even if pony-fied) calling someone else a villain?  BWAAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAA!  On the other hand, that sort of melodramatic dialogue is the sort of thing I'd expect from Dark Pegasus.  

The original plan was that they were all going to be using a Victorian mode of speech - Dan was going to be running behind Abel with a pitchfork, but we ran out of time.  


EDIT: Regarding the next page, Ren might be offline again, more info when I have it.  It's annoying if this one is late because the last page wasn't terribly important, all things considered.  Whereas the upcoming page brings up the subject of Daryil's trial.

[Chakat Blackspots]

I'm not sure I understand the importance of a Mary Sue.

[Naldru]

I'm not sure I understand the importance of a Mary Sue.

Are you saying that it should be a reference to Marty Stu?  Or if it is a Mary Sue, that there is some hidden knowledge that was hinted by a previous strip that had "Cubi are Shapeshifters" in the last frame.

[Tapewolf]

Are you saying that it should be a reference to Marty Stu?  Or if it is a Mary Sue, that there is some hidden knowledge that was hinted by a previous strip that had "Cubi are Shapeshifters" in the last frame.

I have this unshakable conviction that more people know Mary than Marty.  Hence, since it is a character class rather than an actual person, I will normally go for the female version since I figure there's a net gain in terms of people knowing what it means but taking umbrage over the gender, vs people asking "What's a Marty Stu?"  Strange as it seems, there are some people who don't seem to be able to make the mental connection.

[Cogidubnus]

I don't think Jakob is a Mary Sue, but I do think he's kind of a dick sometimes.

[Tapewolf]

I don't think Jakob is a Mary Sue, but I do think he's kind of a dick sometimes.

It varies on a case-by-case basis.  Here are a few.
In the case of Jacks, everyone else does that, so Jakob has to as well or he won't get the forge working that decade.

If someone is trying to kill Jakob or his friends and allies, I fail to see how being dickish to them is an issue.  Most other Creatures in his position would kill them out of hand, after all.

Within the base, it's mostly banter.  Jakob is snarky about Daryil's antics - Daryil does even more outrageous things to provoke him.  Remember that he also has a fear affinity and does mess with people.

In the case of accessing Niall's memories, relations were strained over the fact that Niall let Dorcan murder someone.  There's the added point that Jakob has a faint but definite disapproval of his son's rakish activities.

What irks me most is the beach scene where Jakob is spraying Ashley with water.  In its original form, it was Niall doing that and Jakob reading.  At the point of colouring, I said to Ren "Hey, Jakob never has any fun.  Let's swap him with Niall!"  And now it's become ammo for the "Jakob is an evil bastard" business  

That said, there are things which Jakob does which are a bit gratuitous, and I have been weeding some of those out of the script going forward.

[Cogidubnus]

That said, there are things which Jakob does which are a bit gratuitous, and I have been weeding some of those out of the script going forward.

One direction you could take it is to embrace it. If people are going to see Jakob as a dick, he might as well deserve the title.

I remember you telling the story about Ashley and the water before, and all I can say is that perhaps it is Jakob's lot in life to be eternally misunderstood. Honestly, I don't think he's evil or even Mary Sue-ish, it's just hard to reconcile his actions with his percieved character sometimes, for me.

[Turnsky]

I think it's more how you portray him as leaning towards the 'holier than thou' savior type whom still tends to brood over his past deeds from time to time.

Also, you do tend to whiteknight (or get defensive, whichever's the case) when somebody points their finger and accuses him of being a twink/marysue/bastard/whichever

so these reactions aren't surprising to see, really. The thing is, are any of jakob's flaws written in for the sake of him having discernible flaws that are more or less biography filler, or are they actual, genuine character traits that tend to change and evolve over time?

[Tapewolf]

I think it's more how you portray him as leaning towards the 'holier than thou' savior type whom still tends to brood over his past deeds from time to time.

That happens a lot in reality, mind.  Thinking about it, I suspect a lot of it was subconciously inspired by my great-grandfather, who lived a life of sin and debauchery, got religion and began a crusade against it on the grounds that he'd been there and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.  

Also, you do tend to whiteknight (or get defensive, whichever's the case) when somebody points their finger and accuses him of being a twink/marysue/bastard/whichever

Yeah.  I forgot to mention in my reply to Cog that I do have a bad habit of self-identifying with Jakob.  Some of his flaws, like the snark are actually inherited from me, so I do have a natural tendency to get riled about those ones.
The other thing with Jakob's snarky remarks is that a lot of that was kept in the script because it was supposed to be funny, and I think I have at least some entitlement to feel a bit disappointed if it has the opposite effect ;-)

so these reactions aren't surprising to see, really. The thing is, are any of jakob's flaws written in for the sake of him having discernible flaws that are more or less biography filler, or are they actual, genuine character traits that tend to change and evolve over time?

Mix of both, but most of them are organic rather than written in artificially.  Jakob, when first being RP'd as, he definitely had a lot of on-paper flaws - the blood business is the chief example of those that still remain.
Some of them are half-and-half... from the outset, the idea in Project Future was to present him initially as being a bit enigmatic and perhaps not especially trustworthy.  But the idea was that most of this was a front that should melt away after the plan has been revealed to Josh.  So in that instance, the idea was hard-coded, but exactly how Jakob went about doing it, that grew organically.  (EDIT:  And the melting away might not have worked so well.)

For the most part, Jakob isn't written as such - I simply know how he would respond (and no, I wouldn't respond the same way in all situations).  The business where he's trying to increase lifespans, that's a tricky one.  It's more like there were about three ideas that all collided at once.  Jakob's attitude that he's trying to repay his past deeds, that's something that was formalised after the fact, rather than being part of the design spec for PF, so to speak.  Quite a lot of him is like that, really.


Oh yeah.  And regarding the delay with Ren, it appears to be a cable fault, i.e. moving furniture around - always a bad idea.  So hopefully he'll have that sorted out shortly.

[Turnsky]

Don't worry i'm not indulging in my usual 'character assassination'  You could say it's almost like delving into Jak's psychology, not only that, but it'd be hypocritical of me to call jak a 'marty stu' when i've got one of my very own i enjoy writing about from time to time. 
I even see similar traits in Bengahl that i can see in Jak. Namely the whole "playing with powers that may or may not have 'earthshattering' consequences when it all comes into fruition". 

[Gabi]

Well, if you start building up an image of a mysterious and not completely trustworthy character and then reveal that it was all fake and the character was someone else entirely and had been deceiving others (including the readers) all along, you can't expect that to make him any more trustworthy or less mysterious. Add to that a shady past, a habit of deceiving others just for the kick of scaring them, a number of controversial activities and a tendency to judge others (while mostly limiting his self criticism to the distant past), and you can see why people have a hard time trusting him.

I'm not saying you should change that. If that's the way he is, that's fine. People can be like that, fictional characters even more so. Just don't expect readers to trust him fully or support him unconditionally.

And for what it's worth, I believe that Jakob means well deep inside. But he should understand that not everyone will realize that, and not everyone will agree with him. And as long as he doesn't let others in and doesn't stop to think of how others will feel about what he does (and the possible results), even if his intentions are good, his actions may not be perceived as such.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

I don't really think of Jakob as a Sue/Stu. But I define the term rather narrowly. I'd only consider someone a Sue if the character's impact on the surrounding world and story isn't something that's in line with the character's abilities or personality.


There are characters who are considerable jerks. That's fine. If everyone likes said jerk, with no justification; or worse a ham-fisted author declaration that the character is sweet and kind and caring despite all the character's actions to the contrary, then we have a sue.


Jakob acts in a lot of ways that I'd find annoying in someone I knew, and especially his demanded mind scan of Niall left a bad taste in my mouth, but we do have some established canon that seems to indicate strong hierarchy in 'Cubi clans, that such demands are to be obeyed at times.

To be honest, the only thing I find sueful is his reign as Cross. I still don't entirely buy that his flim-flammery could have pretty much everyone fooled into thinking that he was this vicious crime lord who ruled with an iron fist, when his body count in total was what? Like 12 over a century?  He does a lot of stuff to exile people to islands, yes, but I just don't really think that he could have established such a reputation with so much of it depending on an elaborate bluff.


But in the grand scheme of things, that's like a 7 out of 100 on the sue-o-meter.

[Tapewolf]

Okay, I was hoping to have the comic by now, but Ren is having problems with his ISP again, now the hardware problem is sorted.  It looked like he was going to be able to bring it in to work, but that didn't work out today for reasons I won't go into.  Hopefully I'll have it tomorrow, one way or the other...

Well, if you start building up an image of a mysterious and not completely trustworthy character and then reveal that it was all fake and the character was someone else entirely and had been deceiving others (including the readers) all along, you can't expect that to make him any more trustworthy or less mysterious.

Very true.

But he should understand that not everyone will realize that, and not everyone will agree with him. And as long as he doesn't let others in and doesn't stop to think of how others will feel about what he does (and the possible results), even if his intentions are good, his actions may not be perceived as such.

That I'm having a little difficulty understanding.  'Let others in' in which sense?

Jakob acts in a lot of ways that I'd find annoying in someone I knew, and especially his demanded mind scan of Niall left a bad taste in my mouth, but we do have some established canon that seems to indicate strong hierarchy in 'Cubi clans, that such demands are to be obeyed at times.

I think in many ways it comes down to the old dilemma (recently rekindled during the Tottenham riots) of whether you'd turn your own child in to the police, or try to protect them.  Jakob is tending more towards the former here.  He certainly wouldn't have asked such a thing for a trivial reason.

To be honest, the only thing I find sueful is his reign as Cross. I still don't entirely buy that his flim-flammery could have pretty much everyone fooled into thinking that he was this vicious crime lord who ruled with an iron fist, when his body count in total was what? Like 12 over a century?  He does a lot of stuff to exile people to islands, yes, but I just don't really think that he could have established such a reputation with so much of it depending on an elaborate bluff.

I certainly agree with that.  It's something I would have approached rather differently if I had written the original story now.  Though to be fair, most of Jakob's power then derived from the secret police and other state apparatus rather than him personally.

[Gabi]

In the sense of being more open and listening to other people's views and opinions.

[Tapewolf]

In the sense of being more open and listening to other people's views and opinions.

Noted.

In other news, Ren managed to email me the art from an internet cafe.  Comic should update tomorrow.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm


I found this just trawling about. Perhaps it could be used to help settle the matter

[Tapewolf]

Okay, it's finally up.  Enjoy.

[AmigaDragon]

I'm not sure I understand the importance of a Mary Sue.

Are you saying that it should be a reference to Marty Stu?  Or if it is a Mary Sue, that there is some hidden knowledge that was hinted by a previous strip that had "Cubi are Shapeshifters" in the last frame.

I have this unshakable conviction that more people know Mary than Marty.  Hence, since it is a character class rather than an actual person,...
Strange as it seems, there are some people who don't seem to be able to make the mental connection.

I'm one of those that don't quite get it without extensive thought on the subject... and give up before getting there (especially if it involves a trip into 'tropes).

[VAE]

I don't really think of Jakob as a Sue/Stu. But I define the term rather narrowly. I'd only consider someone a Sue if the character's impact on the surrounding world and story isn't something that's in line with the character's abilities or personality.


There are characters who are considerable jerks. That's fine. If everyone likes said jerk, with no justification; or worse a ham-fisted author declaration that the character is sweet and kind and caring despite all the character's actions to the contrary, then we have a sue.


Jakob acts in a lot of ways that I'd find annoying in someone I knew, and especially his demanded mind scan of Niall left a bad taste in my mouth, but we do have some established canon that seems to indicate strong hierarchy in 'Cubi clans, that such demands are to be obeyed at times.

To be honest, the only thing I find sueful is his reign as Cross. I still don't entirely buy that his flim-flammery could have pretty much everyone fooled into thinking that he was this vicious crime lord who ruled with an iron fist, when his body count in total was what? Like 12 over a century?  He does a lot of stuff to exile people to islands, yes, but I just don't really think that he could have established such a reputation with so much of it depending on an elaborate bluff.


But in the grand scheme of things, that's like a 7 out of 100 on the sue-o-meter.

Heh, i like and agree with yer definition.. a character that has world revolving around him for no reason. I'd perhaps add one more case - straight out "everyone's happy" type successes as main topic of the story. Powerful characters are OK ,but in either case someone doing flawlessly and easily something he was expected to do from his definition is a rather boring topic for a story XD Kinda like devoting a paragraph to a normal human's strife with shoelaces (except that might be funnier)


As for the Cross bit - i disagree - IMHO it's his crowning moment of awesome.
After all, many real dictators pull out equally weird stuff , and they lack cubi abilities.   And if he had any sort of border control , it'd be quite doable (restricting travel both directions).If the exiles lived in one community, you'd only need to make an example out of one "return customer" who tried to stir trouble, to make the others remember. (Sending back his skull with a soul gem hammered into a neat slot on his forehead?) And if he employed any cubi at all in his secret police, it becomes rather simple to identify people.
Never mind the possible use of magic to obscure areas and regions...

I'm not sure I understand the importance of a Mary Sue.

Are you saying that it should be a reference to Marty Stu?  Or if it is a Mary Sue, that there is some hidden knowledge that was hinted by a previous strip that had "Cubi are Shapeshifters" in the last frame.

Yeah.
He's such a Mary Sue he can shapeshift into a female capable of reproducing unlike all other cubi . XD