12/07/2010 [DMFA# 1174] - Bang

[Traveller]

This made me...very happy.

And yeah.  It was clearly (to me) a sign that she's been carefully plotting and scheming, and just reached the big payoff/reveal that she is fully responsible for.  Fourth wall breaking?  Nah, not really, but if anyone would do that it's the fae, and if any fae could get away with it, it's Mab.

If all the fae were watching events unfold together, I could still see her doing that gesture, to gentle applause and murmured approval.  Hell if we know what goes on up there in the fae kingdom, maybe that's exactly what happened.  They sort of have their own personal fourth wall, anyway.  They're showy enough.

[Cogidubnus]

This comic has left me with only one question.

Why do kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

[Attic Rat]

This comic has left me with only one question.

Why do kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

Because making buttered toast and sprinkling cinnamon and sugar on it takes too long for these modern-day kids, little ipod-entranced web-surfing rapscallions that they are.

So soon - with the One True Weapon in his paws, the balance of power against the world of magic is maintained and genocide is averted. Not a bad day's work... Just so long as Jy doesn't shoot Mab. That would be bad. Very bad.

[Draken]

Considering her wheelings and dealings behind her so called friend's backs, I think she deserves a shot.  Or five.

[Cogidubnus]

So soon - with the One True Weapon in his paws, the balance of power against the world of magic is maintained and genocide is averted. Not a bad day's work... Just so long as Jy doesn't shoot Mab. That would be bad. Very bad.

Wouldn't work anyhow. Fae aren't magic, they're hax.

[Amber Williams]

So soon - with the One True Weapon in his paws, the balance of power against the world of magic is maintained and genocide is averted. Not a bad day's work... Just so long as Jy doesn't shoot Mab. That would be bad. Very bad.

Wouldn't work anyhow. Fae aren't magic, they're hax.

Yeah. Pretty much.  They're buggars like that. 

[Maark30]

So soon - with the One True Weapon in his paws, the balance of power against the world of magic is maintained and genocide is averted. Not a bad day's work... Just so long as Jy doesn't shoot Mab. That would be bad. Very bad.

Wouldn't work anyhow. Fae aren't magic, they're hax.

Yeah. Pretty much.  They're buggars like that. 

So the Fae are the "Mary Sues" of DMFA?

[Unsilenced]

I never got the whole "magic invalidates guns" thing. I understand it from a writing standpoint: It's hard to have epic battles with two different primary modes of combat without having one completely destroy the other. I.E if you had guns and magic in the same battle, it would be hard to claim that one wouldn't completely destroy the other. If you go all magic though you can make it as weak or as powerful as you like. You can blast someone across the room with a bolt of energy and say "yeah well it wasn't actually that bad, he's only bruised." Guns though... well you're either plugged or ya 'aint.  

From a logic standpoint though...

Guns are simple machines really, especially in light of the fact that computers seem to work just dandy. Without dramatically changing the fundamental behaviors of materials, there's no reason why magic fallout would stop guns from working.


/overanalysis.


EDIT: Am I the only one that thinks that a well-executed battle where magic and guns were used by both sides would be epic? Or that a magic gun could destroy everything?

[Attic Rat]

I never got the whole "magic invalidates guns" thing. I understand it from a writing standpoint: It's hard to have epic battles with two different primary modes of combat without having one completely destroy the other. I.E if you had guns and magic in the same battle, it would be hard to claim that one wouldn't completely destroy the other. If you go all magic though you can make it as weak or as powerful as you like. You can blast someone across the room with a bolt of energy and say "yeah well it wasn't actually that bad, he's only bruised." Guns though... well you're either plugged or ya 'aint.  

From a logic standpoint though...

Guns are simple machines really, especially in light of the fact that computers seem to work just dandy. Without dramatically changing the fundamental behaviors of materials, there's no reason why magic fallout would stop guns from working.



/overanalysis.


EDIT: Am I the only one that thinks that a well-executed battle where magic and guns were used by both sides would be epic? Or that a magic gun could destroy everything?

I think I know what you're getting at. There are a lot of stories which suppose that guns and other non-magical devices wouldn't work in a magical world, to provide a balance for the fact that magic doesn't work here in the real world... But this comic includes both. It has devices made with and without magic, and magic made with and without devices.

[terrycloth]

I've seen:
(a) Magic and guns used together as a matter of course. (eg, shadowrun)
(b) Guns slaughter fantasy troops until they realized that a low level spell ('fail weapons') makes guns useless.
(c) Guns slaughter fantasy troops
(d) Magic is invulnerable to guns (you need a +1 or better weapon to hit. That nuke was +0).
(e) Guns work by using magic. (or, soldiers carry 'magic wands' and their dragon-based air support drops magical 'eggs' that explode)

...people have done this sort of crossover is lots of different ways. Since there's no 'real magic' to base the comparison on, you can't say that one or the other is correct.

Oh, and I've also seen where guns just don't work in the fantasy world because gunpowder doesn't explode. (well world) In the 'semi-tech' hexes you could get steam to work but still not gunpowder, I think, so they had steam-powered crossbows or some silliness like that?

[Amber Williams]

I've seen that a lot in a lot of stories.

Admittedly one of the reasons DMFA is somewhat low on tech versus magic is simply SHEER ARTISTIC LAZINESS.  Because it's a lot easier to draw a swirly magical device than a realistic cellphone. And a fancy gryphon carriage than an on-model car.  You can scrawl out a wackity looking sword and no one will really hold it against you, but a lot of people will be more quick to point out if you forget to add a certain part of a gun.

In DMFA, there is both technology and magic...though magic takes a precedence simply because the creatures that have been around longest were using magic first and well...in a lot of ways magic is easier and simpler.  In simple economics, using magic to create a lot of items is a lot cheaper and easier than not. And as a result, technology got a slower start since there wasn't as much a necessity to advance forward since there were/are a lot of magical versions already existing.  And really the main reason technology is now having a boost is well...it benefits magical uses as well.

The big thing though is that scientific curiosity isn't as strong in Furrae as it would be in our world because there isn't as strong a need for it.

As for guns, this is also admittedly a failing on my part in that guns do in theory exist in Furrae already.  Nothing semi-automatic or modern-warfare...in actuality they are more likely magical hybrids or something an adventurer who thinks they have a certain style would use.  But by and large the weapons themselves are nothing to boast about.    That and...go figure...most creatures and forces in the higher ups tend to keep tabs on developments in the "items that can kill people" department.   But as I said, magic tends to make people not really need to delve deep into science because its easier and less work with more or less the same results.

And moreso, I suck mighty hard at drawing guns.  One day I should pick up a book on weaponry I suppose.

[Captain]

At the very least, we know non-magical creatures have no detectable emotions..

Which on an offnote, makes me wonder just how natural M.A.C.E. is (since she was created when Jyrras was specifically trying not to work on magical effects, and with that suspicious potentially 98.7% neutral screwdriver), and if she's also likewise immune to detection from magical wards, like those of Zinvth..

None-magical creatures? aren't beings defined as a nonmagical race? Wouldn't it be more accurate to its because they're artificial/a robot/is literally a flying piece of bubblegum? I'd probably want to stick with artificial they don't even eat after all, of course in a different cannon that doesn't matter at all.

[Unsilenced]

I've seen:
(a) Magic and guns used together as a matter of course. (eg, shadowrun)
(b) Guns slaughter fantasy troops until they realized that a low level spell ('fail weapons') makes guns useless.
(c) Guns slaughter fantasy troops
(d) Magic is invulnerable to guns (you need a +1 or better weapon to hit. That nuke was +0).
(e) Guns work by using magic. (or, soldiers carry 'magic wands' and their dragon-based air support drops magical 'eggs' that explode)

...people have done this sort of crossover is lots of different ways. Since there's no 'real magic' to base the comparison on, you can't say that one or the other is correct.

Oh, and I've also seen where guns just don't work in the fantasy world because gunpowder doesn't explode. (well world) In the 'semi-tech' hexes you could get steam to work but still not gunpowder, I think, so they had steam-powered crossbows or some silliness like that?

Which is kinda absurd if you think about it. Remember kids: If it can burn it can boom. In order for gunpowder AND ONLY GUNPOWDER to not work, there would need to be something about the universe that specifically blocked each type of gunpowder and nothing else. In short, an all powerful hand of god would need to shape the world with the intent to ensure that guns could not be used.

...

And then grenades and caseless rifles would still work because those are a different type of explosive. I guess god could disable those too... but then you've got FABs and the like... and nuclear power is kinda essential to the function of the universe... getting rid of oil is a serious no-no, and that can be made into incendiaries. Aluminum and iron oxide would be out, you can make thermite with those. Ammonium and bleach would have changed properties, least someone make mustard gas. You'd have to make the opposite ends of the periodic table not react so you can't do potassium-water explosions... but once you do that you kinda invalidate all of chemistry so... um... yeah.


Basically you can't stop things from exploding in a universe. Exploding is just rapid oxidation, and oxidation is rather necessary for life.

"No economic niche" is a decent enough reason, certainly one of the better ones I've heard, though if beings can't use magic as much you'd think they'd jump on something that gave them a bit more sting.

[Stig Hemmer]

The version I prefer is that technological artifacts, like guns, are incredibly FRAGILE.  As terrycloth said: Fail Weapon is a low level spell.

Gunpowder wants to explode.  Making it explode prematurely should be easy for a mage.  A magazine of rifle bullets suddenly becomes a fragmentation grenade.  Oops.

This doesn't only hold for guns:  Any engine is full of parts that move at high speeds.  The slightest Transformation of any such part will destroy that engine in a fairly permanent way.

And don't get me started on batteries. 

Now, in Furrae this goes for artifacts made from "average" materials, with some magic in them.  If Jyrras manages to make something of magic-free and thereby magic-resistant materials, the whole picture changes.

As for the creature/being power balance:  Creatures have magic and other sources of power.  Beings have much larger numbers.  You don't need to give each being much power before the balance tips.   

It is the old story of the few strong nobles and the many powerless peasants all over again.  When the revolutions came, the peasants had very poor equipment compared to the nobles.  They still won, as will the beings in Furrae.

[AmberCross]

Actually your entire argument there is based on the fundamental assumption that science works. In a world that's magic only... science WOULDN'T work right. It's kind of like 'magic' being the 'science' of that universe because OUR laws of physics don't apply. There is nothing to say that just because something burns, it can explode because perhaps not that much energy is actually emitted when stuff burns but it catches fire anyway. You don't need nuclear bindings in a world where atoms are held together by tiny springs or (more fitting for a magical analogy) fluffernuffle! Chemistry would not by necessity work the same so it's possible that while aluminum and the other components exist, thermite itself does not.

Your whole argument basically says that it's impossible to create a world in which it's not possible to make natural things dangerous, but that's actually not a proof against what you're trying to argue that gunpowder can't be disabled. In magic worlds, magic is natural but science is not. So science doesn't work, but they have their own 'science' which does.

[Inumo]

Actually your entire argument there is based on the fundamental assumption that science works. In a world that's magic only... science WOULDN'T work right. It's kind of like 'magic' being the 'science' of that universe because OUR laws of physics don't apply. There is nothing to say that just because something burns, it can explode because perhaps not that much energy is actually emitted when stuff burns but it catches fire anyway. You don't need nuclear bindings in a world where atoms are held together by tiny springs or (more fitting for a magical analogy) fluffernuffle! Chemistry would not by necessity work the same so it's possible that while aluminum and the other components exist, thermite itself does not.

Your whole argument basically says that it's impossible to create a world in which it's not possible to make natural things dangerous, but that's actually not a proof against what you're trying to argue that gunpowder can't be disabled. In magic worlds, magic is natural but science is not. So science doesn't work, but they have their own 'science' which does.

AC, that's a typical solution to this issue. However, as is evidenced in DMFA in various locations, magic and science do exist together, and that's what we're talking about.

[Cogidubnus]

I think Amber has already explained adequately why there aren't advanced weaponries in Furrae. Other than cinnamon toast crunch, I'm wondering what the significance of highly natural materials is, exactly.

Bullets that ignore shield spells and the like? Super-high SR armor? I guess we'll find out.

Undoubtedly, it will turn out that a 100% natural screwdriver is the only thing in the universe that can fix Mab's dangerously magical closet door - without whose doory protections the contained essence of the 1980's would escape and run free, covering the land in Saved by the Bell t-shirts and metal bands with questionable taste in haircuts.

[Alondro]

This reminds me of the two-sided approach I've taken to my story submissions for Anthrocon this year.

One take is on the 'science and magic do not mix', though it doesn't have to do with science not working at all, instead that trying to use magic to enhance non-magical devices has unintended and unpredictable responses, especially with high-end electronics since those have microcircuits that operate on quantum principles, so magic does... odd things to them.  And then there are just a few silly examples thrown in for fun.

The other take is the 'magic and science work great together!' angle, in which all sorts of items have magic enhancement.

Either way can work, all you haveto take into account is how you design the magic in your world.  And since magic doesn't seem to exist at all (and therefore no one can say what principles should or should not work since all are nonexistant) as long as you maintain internal consistency, it's all good.   

[AmberCross]

Ah, my bad. I thought Unsilenced was talking about a general type case in response to the 'gunpowder just doesn't work' scenario, not about DMFA in particular. Clearly science does work in DMFA after all what with the ovens and even airplanes... you know assuming that 'give a weasel wings' comic wasn't just a noncanon joke... >.>

[Unsilenced]

Actually your entire argument there is based on the fundamental assumption that science works. In a world that's magic only... science WOULDN'T work right. It's kind of like 'magic' being the 'science' of that universe because OUR laws of physics don't apply. There is nothing to say that just because something burns, it can explode because perhaps not that much energy is actually emitted when stuff burns but it catches fire anyway. You don't need nuclear bindings in a world where atoms are held together by tiny springs or (more fitting for a magical analogy) fluffernuffle! Chemistry would not by necessity work the same so it's possible that while aluminum and the other components exist, thermite itself does not.

Your whole argument basically says that it's impossible to create a world in which it's not possible to make natural things dangerous, but that's actually not a proof against what you're trying to argue that gunpowder can't be disabled. In magic worlds, magic is natural but science is not. So science doesn't work, but they have their own 'science' which does.

*shrug*

Different people have different standards, but when 99% of real world physics and chemistry works and the last 1% fails, my willing suspension of disbelief starts to fall apart.* "Hydrogen bonds to oxygen, but not when they're too close to a 2:1 mix" or "Oil burns... unless it's refined and dispersed into a mist" just seems iffy to me.

Eh. I always nitpick about these kind of things, left-brained engineer that I am. The massive fridge logic that some stories** provoke annoys me endlessly. I can ignore a little bit of root cubed violation, and conservation of energy is overrated anyways, but the moment time travel shows up, I'm out.

*Of course, if you had a universe in which you disabled all real life physics... well you wouldn't be left with much. Your readers wouldn't recognize anything and the story would mean nothing. *Some* consistency is required. Otherwise it's like trying to communicate with someone who speaks an entirely different language over the telephone.

**Not DMFA much mind you. I haven't epic fridged about this comic yet.

[AmberCross]

Well as to that, I figure the only rule you need to change is the rate one. Doesn't matter what ratio it is in that case, it's still going to have a steady/non-explosive burning.

[Naldru]

Just a thought.  If the speed of sound through materials was reduced, wouldn't that stop the rate of the detonation wave going through the material and stop bullets without affecting the ability of materials to burn.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Just a thought.  If the speed of sound through materials was reduced, wouldn't that stop the rate of the detonation wave going through the material and stop bullets without affecting the ability of materials to burn.

No. Some bullets are supersonic. Ergo, the speed of sound is simply "very fast" and not any sort of physical limit.

Of course, you need some force to break that "barrier", but that's because the sound wave builds up and you need to provide energy to move it into a different format, in air. Or so I understand - I'm not an engineer, and I haven't looked into it in detail, but that's a brief guess at why the sound barrier makes a boom and is such a thing to drive faster than.

The other point to note is that smaller objects (like bullets) need much less "extra" energy than larger ones (like, say, a car or a jet).

Which is kinda absurd if you think about it. Remember kids: If it can burn it can boom. In order for gunpowder AND ONLY GUNPOWDER to not work, there would need to be something about the universe that specifically blocked each type of gunpowder and nothing else. In short, an all powerful hand of god would need to shape the world with the intent to ensure that guns could not be used.

...

And then grenades and caseless rifles would still work because those are a different type of explosive. I guess god could disable those too... but then you've got FABs and the like... and nuclear power is kinda essential to the function of the universe... getting rid of oil is a serious no-no, and that can be made into incendiaries. Aluminum and iron oxide would be out, you can make thermite with those. Ammonium and bleach would have changed properties, least someone make mustard gas. You'd have to make the opposite ends of the periodic table not react so you can't do potassium-water explosions... but once you do that you kinda invalidate all of chemistry so... um... yeah.


Basically you can't stop things from exploding in a universe. Exploding is just rapid oxidation, and oxidation is rather necessary for life.

There was the case of the Amber stories, by Roger Zelazny. Posit a universe in which some people can move from one universe to another, by imagining the things around them changing. In such a universe, the gamut of possibilities goes from total anarchy through to ordered silence. At one point you have one of these fed hallucinogenic drugs, and he ends up in Lewis Carroll's back yard talking to the Cheshire Cat, and slicing up two somethings that took out the Jabberwocky in mere moments with the vorpal sword. Which he then folded up and returned...

You also get such interesting things as "A horned orange thing chased a purple thing with a tail across the hills, both fo them wailing in two tones. I nodded. It was just one damned thing after another." - which even I'll admit was a cheap joke, but it made me laugh. And then there's another place where, well, there's a maze. Sometimes you have to walk on the ground, sometimes on the tops of the walls. The maze changes all the time. Sometimes there's no air above head-height. Sometimes there's traps. And all this is purely because the machine in the middle of the maze won't work anywhere else, because the physics is slightly wrong. Or something - it's not clearly explained.

However, the reason that all this comes up is that one of the themes of one of the books is that gunpowder basically doesn't burn in one of the ends of reality. The hero of sorts runs across a pink powder that burns there, though, so is running around making ammo with this pink powder in them that's totally inert on earth, but works in this other place.

This is, of course, going back a few years - they were written in the early 70's. So... nothing new there. *grin*

[Jasonrevall]

EDIT: Am I the only one that thinks that a well-executed battle where magic and guns were used by both sides would be epic? Or that a magic gun could destroy everything?

I think it would be fantastic. In order for it to be fantastic however, I think you would need technology supreme versus ultimate magic. Meaning both sides are at or can reach a very high level of power. Like special suits that can cloak or magic nuke like attacks that can blow up tanks and all that, to make using one or the other like picking apples or oranges.

Pros of guns = faster shooting and less knowledge to go out and kill someone, magic = lighter load to carry and larger area of effect attacks plus knowledge would be your only limit on they types of attacks you can use when engaging. Something along those lines anyway, all in my opinion of course.

It might be hard to write a scenario where this would happen however. I think it could be be done using some kind of inter-dimensional war type deal. Where inter-dimensional beings or those who can travel to and from them would wage war. One using magic as a primary means of attack, the other using technology.

I've seen:
(a) Magic and guns used together as a matter of course. (eg, shadowrun)

Shadowrun did one of the best magic/technology blends I've seen yet. I really did enjoy how it was done.

[Shachza]

I've seen:
(a) Magic and guns used together as a matter of course. (eg, shadowrun)
(b) Guns slaughter fantasy troops until they realized that a low level spell ('fail weapons') makes guns useless.
(c) Guns slaughter fantasy troops
(d) Magic is invulnerable to guns (you need a +1 or better weapon to hit. That nuke was +0).
(e) Guns work by using magic. (or, soldiers carry 'magic wands' and their dragon-based air support drops magical 'eggs' that explode)

(f)  And then you have Technology that is magic, like the Technocracy from White Wolf's old World of Darkness.  Their hyper-advanced technology works because they believe it does.

The ultimate in doomsday weaponry: Spirit Nukes.  Nuclear weapons that are designed to explode that demigod's mind, body, AND soul simultaneously.  Works equally well on the demigod, every one of its minions within about 20 miles, people, terrain, buildings, and even immaterial things like ghosts.  Though they do tend to leave lingering holes to "alternate dimensions."

[Mao]

For those who are wondering: I haven't tearoomed this thread because the comic, to me, appears to have been geared towards inciting speculation.  That said, do try to not get to rabid on this guys, it's a fantasy comic.  If you find yourself unable to suspend your disbelief and not nit-pick the shit out of the comic then I suggest you find something else to read as your enjoyment of this comic is clearly not going to be able to overcome the fact that the artist takes liberties to make the story flow or a gag work.

[Turnsky]

to me it's a simple matter of this:

Magic tends to stymie technological progression because of what magic fundamentally is: Metaphysical manipulation of energy and matter. As opposed to how we folks do things on ol' Terra-Firma.

And as Ambaaargh said: it's easier to draw a glowy bunch of lights than a mechanically accurate firearm or whatnot.

As non-magical mcguffins, Beings haveta either "learn" magic, or become very, very ,very handy with what tools they have. Jy's a genius, mad inventor, and so on, the ability to potentially create powerful non-magical devices has all the ability to shift the balance of power throughout furrae.

Except for the Fae, their abilities aside, to me they're classed as an "Extra-dimensional Species" and therefore not overly native to Furrae. Their presence on Furrae's prolly enough to warrant their seat on the creature council, although personally i'd get the inkling they might've shoehorned their way in regardless.

All in All, what Jy's up to has the potential (there's that word again, can i get a thesaurus?) to place beings on more than an equal footing with other magical critters.

[Amber Williams]

*ahem*


NEEEeEEEEeeeEEEEEEeEeeeeeEEERDS!!

[Turnsky]

*ahem*


NEEEeEEEEeeeEEEEEEeEeeeeeEEERDS!!

it's 1am and i'm on cold & flu meds, i have an excuse. 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

it's 1am and i'm on cold & flu meds, i have an excuse. 

That's a heck of an excuse.


... can I have some? ;-]