9/27/09 [PF #80] Reduce the robot!

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

Why do people always say "You can't do that"?

Ashford quite obviously can have Joshua dismantled, unless the robot body has some hidden defense mechanism tucked away. Why not "You shouldn't do that!" or "Please don't do that!" or something that's actually in accordance with English grammar


Also, I don't quite get where Keaton's (or Joshua's) assessment that the Total conversion beam can't be weaponized. Any store of charged energy can be used to power a weapon, whether it's direct energy assault or to propel a projectile, right?

Hmmm, and I'm wondering. Where is Joshua's consciousness kept? Could his mind survive being dismantled? Cross mentioned that there's a soul crystal as part of the construction, would his "self" or whatever be there?


Last disconnected point. What's that certificate on the wall of/for?

[Garsemor]

Joshua is really pissed in the 5th panel, but who can blame him.

I'm surprised that Ashford would do somthing like that do that, sometimes I wonder if he even has a soul.

[Tapewolf]

Why do people always say "You can't do that"?

Ashford quite obviously can have Joshua dismantled, unless the robot body has some hidden defense mechanism tucked away. Why not "You shouldn't do that!" or "Please don't do that!" or something that's actually in accordance with English grammar

"You can't do that!"  is shorter  

Also, I don't quite get where Keaton's (or Joshua's) assessment that the Total conversion beam can't be weaponized. Any store of charged energy can be used to power a weapon, whether it's direct energy assault or to propel a projectile, right?

Yes, but if the machinery needed to produce the beam is 1km in diameter and takes about 3 hours to charge before firing, it does tend to make it a little inconvenient for anything short of a starship.  What she really means is "it can't easily be weaponised."

Hmmm, and I'm wondering. Where is Joshua's consciousness kept? Could his mind survive being dismantled? Cross mentioned that there's a soul crystal as part of the construction, would his "self" or whatever be there?

Joshua's got a working brain, it just happens to be based on nanotronic circuitry rather than flesh and blood.  The soul gem is a sort of emergency life-raft in case the brain is deactivated.

Last disconnected point. What's that certificate on the wall of/for?

Oh yes, I was going to show that.

http://www.project-future.org/stuff/things/pf80_3.png

And just because I love Keaton's expression here:

http://www.project-future.org/stuff/things/pf80_1.png

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Why do people always say "You can't do that"?

Ashford quite obviously can have Joshua dismantled, unless the robot body has some hidden defense mechanism tucked away. Why not "You shouldn't do that!" or "Please don't do that!" or something that's actually in accordance with English grammar

"You can't do that!"  is shorter 

Also, Josh may be referring to legal limitations on what people are allowed to do.

Or a lack of the appropriate tools; having the cybernetic bodies built with the equivalent of the DS three-point screw thingy would be a helpful way of making sure nobody else could service them, at least for a while. I don't think that particular approach would fit, though, since it's a short-term limitation, and Johan strikes me as more of a long-term planner. That's not to say he wouldn't do such a thing, but his plans would include the fact that other people would start making the tools in short order, and have a second string to his bow, as it were. And a third, and ... heck, it's more of a  harp... ;-]

[Madmann135]

Joshua is still alive... just made from different materials than the other two.  If you boil it down they are all machines just made from different parts and manufactured differently.
...And Joshua is not a simulation, he is more of a recreation.  Joshua is Joshua, kinda like a ghost in a robotic shell (the other two are ghost in organic shells) [Movie and Series reference right there].

Joshua's face in panel 5 shows his feelings towards his current situation and it's a funny face.  She forgot to mention 'Cross' banished the Nagristi clan.

[Roach Lord]

Can't his robotic arms like, BREAK the little things that hold him in the chair?

[Tapewolf]

Can't his robotic arms like, BREAK the little things that hold him in the chair?

Not if they're designed to hold a Demon, no.

[Gabi]

And just because I love Keaton's expression here:

http://www.project-future.org/stuff/things/pf80_1.png

Yes, it's a great expression.

[Pagan]

Last disconnected point. What's that certificate on the wall of/for?

Oh yes, I was going to show that.
And just because I love Keaton's expression here

Huh. I didn't notice her deadpan expression there. Very nice. Why does Ashford have seven degrees?

[Amber Williams]

This update depressed me.  I don't have anything witty or snarky to say even.

I think I'm going to have to stop reading for a couple of months.   I'll troll you guys in December.   

[Ren Gaulen]

Joshua is still alive... just made from different materials than the other two.  If you boil it down they are all machines just made from different parts and manufactured differently.
...And Joshua is not a simulation, he is more of a recreation.  Joshua is Joshua, kinda like a ghost in a robotic shell (the other two are ghost in organic shells) [Movie and Series reference right there].

GitS for the win! And your point is valid. Apparently, Ashford does not seem to view something not made of flesh and blood as a living being, though.

Joshua's face in panel 5 shows his feelings towards his current situation and it's a funny face.

I had a bit of fun with that panel.

[Tapewolf]

This update depressed me.  I don't have anything witty or snarky to say even.

I think I'm going to have to stop reading for a couple of months.   I'll troll you guys in December.  

Well, I can't stop you, but it would be disappointing.  Your critique thus far has been invaluable and I can't help but think that the reason is that I've done something particularly crass here but am too inexperienced to see it.

In terms of darkness, this chapter is one of the darker ones I'll admit, which is probably why I started to experiment with adding a bit more comedy to balance it out.  I don't suppose you would consider hanging on for one more page?

Huh. I didn't notice her deadpan expression there. Very nice. Why does Ashford have seven degrees?

Because he runs the place.  I will say that although he passed those modules on paper, he isn't particularly good at applying some of them.

[LionHeart]

I'm surprised that Ashford would do somthing like that do that, sometimes I wonder if he even has a soul.

Oh, he does. It's mentioned in the story...

[Tapewolf]

Oh, he does. It's mentioned in the story...

I think he meant Ashford, not Joshua...

[Gabi]

Sadly, it takes a soul to do things like that. A very corrupted soul, but a soul nonetheless.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

I would like to third that Keaton's "Why am I working for an idiot again?" expression is made out of win.

Because he runs the place.  I will say that although he passed those modules on paper, he isn't particularly good at applying some of them.

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that while most of the degrees are in something that at least sounds technical and specific, like "Intelligence collation", a degree in "Psychology" seems weird? It's not in clinical or developmental psychology or any subdiscipline. Undergrads major in psychology, but I didn't think they offered degrees for it

And maybe it's my own rampant paranoia, but from Ashford's position, I still understand his freak out. Sure, maybe Project Future is too large and unwieldy to be used like a Death Star. But it's purpose is to produce energy, and it seems to make a lot, and then gets put into an easily transported and stored "battery". If you're making that much energy, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to use said energy to build an army of robots or power up numerous energy weapons. Heck, didn't Jakob mention that he might try to attain Tri-Wing status with the energy produced? I don't know how much of Project Future's output that would take, but anything that can turn already pretty dangerous 'cubi into Tri-wings in great numbers is a potentially extremely dangerous operation.

[Zedd]

Oh my I would hope things brighten up soon

[ChaosMageX]

Hmmm, and I'm wondering. Where is Joshua's consciousness kept? Could his mind survive being dismantled? Cross mentioned that there's a soul crystal as part of the construction, would his "self" or whatever be there?

Joshua's got a working brain, it just happens to be based on nanotronic circuitry rather than flesh and blood.  The soul gem is a sort of emergency life-raft in case the brain is deactivated.

Yes, but how is Joshua's soul tied to the synthetic body in the first place?  Is it some sort physical spell, like the blood seals in Full Metal Alchemist, or is it more metaphysical, relying on the cybernetic brain to provide an energy feedback that allows the soul to persist.
The latter would involve synthetic body's energy patterns replicating those of an organic body, allowing a stream of life energy to flow through through it and tie the soul to it.
Basically, do these synthetic bodies have a chi/ki/chakra/etc network like organic ones do?

I'm thinking that in natural bodies, the soul is kept tied to the body by a persistent energy feedback exchange between body and soul through this network, which explains why a fractured or incomplete soul degrades the body, (unless there's another energy source to counteract that), and why an extra-powerful or looped soul grants high-speed healing and immortality in some cases.

[Tapewolf]

Oh my I would hope things brighten up soon

It cycles fairly rapidly actually.  Dark, bright, dark, bright...

Yes, but how is Joshua's soul tied to the synthetic body in the first place?  Is it some sort physical spell, like the blood seals in Full Metal Alchemist, or is it more metaphysical, relying on the cybernetic brain to provide an energy feedback that allows the soul to persist.

Jakob chose the cybernetic brain technology he did because he found that the panthers and the aircraft had souls in the same way as a living creature.  He found but discarded a few other technologies which were simply automata and not self-aware.  Josh's soul isn't bound to his body by an enchantment, it's been transferred into his new body like a plant being re-potted.

[Noone]

Jakob chose the cybernetic brain technology he did because he found that the panthers and the aircraft had souls in the same way as a living creature.

I thought those were from the human dimension, (which I'm assuming is without magic.) how did they manage to get them? I thought that those were strictly restricted to the living. I don't think a machine, even if it is completely self aware, would have one. At their core, don't they still just follow what their programming directs them to do? (Even if they can learn) Unless they all had someone's soul shunted into them, which I don't think would be a realistic possibility, where did they get them?
Does that also mean that souls can be 'created' with some coding, metal, electricity, and enough work?

[Tapewolf]

I thought those were from the human dimension, (which I'm assuming is without magic.) how did they manage to get them? I thought that those were strictly restricted to the living. I don't think a machine, even if it is completely self aware, would have one.

Ah, there we must differ.  I'm not assuming there's anything intrinsically  different in a human brain, and that any machine which is capable of supporting consciousness will develop a soul.
For all I know, in Furrae, souls are created by some god and explicitly given to sentient lifeforms at their birth, but my assumption is that souls are created as a product of a mind, rather like electricity can be generated by moving a magnet in proximity to a coil of wire.
Alternatively, consider how planets are formed - a sufficiently large mass will attract smaller chunks of matter to it and grow by accretion until it is self-sustaining.  That might be also be an analogy for souls 'just happening' as a function of the universe.

At their core, don't they still just follow what their programming directs them to do? (Even if they can learn)

Well, the same argument could be made -  and has often has been - about the human brain 

Unless they all had someone's soul shunted into them, which I don't think would be a realistic possibility, where did they get them?
Does that also mean that souls can be 'created' with some coding, metal, electricity, and enough work?

If you knew enough about what they were made of and how they were structured, then quite possibly.  How souls work in Furrae is really something you'd want to ask Amber, though - and I wouldn't blame her if she wanted to keep that card close to her chest.  It would kind of spoil the magic, so to speak.

What is true is that the humans didn't know that their creations had souls.

[Madmann135]

I thought those were from the human dimension, (which I'm assuming is without magic.) how did they manage to get them? I thought that those were strictly restricted to the living. I don't think a machine, even if it is completely self aware, would have one.

Ah, there we must differ.  I'm not assuming there's anything intrinsically  different in a human brain, and that any machine which is capable of supporting consciousness will develop a soul.
For all I know, in Furrae, souls are created by some god and explicitly given to sentient lifeforms at their birth, but my assumption is that souls are created as a product of a mind, rather like electricity can be generated by moving a magnet in proximity to a coil of wire.
Alternatively, consider how planets are formed - a sufficiently large mass will attract smaller chunks of matter to it and grow by accretion until it is self-sustaining.  That might be also be an analogy for souls 'just happening' as a function of the universe.

So you are saying a soul is made and earned by each individual through personal experience and so forth?

[Tapewolf]

So you are saying a soul is made and earned by each individual through personal experience and so forth?

I wouldn't say 'earned', that gives the wrong connotations.  More like 'generated and maintained as a natural (by?)product of a functioning mind'.

**EDIT**
Again, I'm not saying this is exactly how it works in Furrae, but it could be.  AFAIK it doesn't contradict anything Amber has shown us so far.  For the purposes of PF, this is Jakob's theory on how it works (and I'm assuming they don't teach the exact source of souls at SAIA, either that or he skipped that class).  Other individuals have other ideas, e.g. Niall tends more towards the theistic approach.

[Brunhidden]

the idea that not all people have souls is somehow logical and scary, after all some people are little more then intelligent animals or just aren't spiritual enough to generate one, and yet a pet can sometimes generate a soul on par with a normal human. by extention residuals of human souls could give a building or vessel something akin to a soul of its own over extended time....

[Tapewolf]

Just as a heads-up, it better suits Ren's schedule for him to work on the strip Fridays, so don't be too surprised if we update Saturdays instead of the de-facto Friday slot for a bit.

[Pagan]

Wait, ya'll aren't supposed to update on Saturdays?

[Tapewolf]

Wait, ya'll aren't supposed to update on Saturdays?

Yes, but the de-facto update night has been Friday for most of the strip's existence.

[ChaosMageX]

I thought those were from the human dimension, (which I'm assuming is without magic.) how did they manage to get them? I thought that those were strictly restricted to the living. I don't think a machine, even if it is completely self aware, would have one.

Ah, there we must differ.  I'm not assuming there's anything intrinsically  different in a human brain, and that any machine which is capable of supporting consciousness will develop a soul.

Souls of Silicon, but souls nonetheless.  Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Still, even if it is possible for a machine to evolve consciousness like sentient beings, how would you explain being able to kill a being by severing the ties between their body and soul, but not being able to do the same to a machine?

I mean, when a being dies of natural causes, the soul can sometimes persist in the body for hours after death and still be edible, but immediately severing the tie between the body and soul can cause immediate death, at least in the case of several other comics I've read.

[Tapewolf]

Still, even if it is possible for a machine to evolve consciousness like sentient beings, how would you explain being able to kill a being by severing the ties between their body and soul, but not being able to do the same to a machine?

Well, we don't know what happens when you do that to a Being, and I'm not sure I want to know, honestly.  It might be that you just end up with a Hollow which dies when it starves.  If you did that to, say, Joshua, it is liable to either crash his brain outright (your instant death example), or leave him computationally intact but without any self-awareness or will, like a Hollow.

[ChaosMageX]

Still, even if it is possible for a machine to evolve consciousness like sentient beings, how would you explain being able to kill a being by severing the ties between their body and soul, but not being able to do the same to a machine?

Well, we don't know what happens when you do that to a Being, and I'm not sure I want to know, honestly.  It might be that you just end up with a Hollow which dies when it starves.  If you did that to, say, Joshua, it is liable to either crash his brain outright (your instant death example), or leave him computationally intact but without any self-awareness or will, like a Hollow.

Oh yeah, that's right, I forgot about hollows, which are basically zombies in the mental sense rather than the physical sense.

So, how do you explain how beings who've sold their souls for power are able to stay high-functioning and not become hollows?

I explain it by saying that there's another darker energy source that's moved in to take the place of the soul.
This is also how beings with damaged souls are able to survive with their damaged soul leeching energy from their bodies and literally rotting them from inside out.
It also explains why artifacts containing soul fragments tend to leech residual emotional energy around them to act as energy sources.
As Abel once said, horcruxes can make great desk lamps if you suck out the soul when it's stuck in an emotional anguish feedback loop.