15/05/09 [WITW #4] I don't think he can fit in a beer bottle...

[Sunblink]

Ahaha, I couldn't resist. I know what Jakob meant.

Still, seven? Wow, aren't you accomplished, Simeon.

[Tapewolf]

Still, seven? Wow, aren't you accomplished, Simeon.

A crossbow can be a pretty nasty thing, even for a Creature...

[Sunblink]

Still, seven? Wow, aren't you accomplished, Simeon.

A crossbow can be a pretty nasty thing, even for a Creature...

"'Now, hold on,' you keep saying. 'Aren't bows and arrows primitive and harmless?' Why don't you ask the dinosaurs? Except you can't, because the cavemen bow and arrowed them to death."
- Team Fortress 2 Update for the Sniper

Just replace "dinosaur" with "Cubi" and you get relevance!

[Jairus]

It's Soula Cola! The only soda made from the souls of vengeful Beings! Bottled fresh by Jakob's Soda, Inc.!

And the soul thingy as worse than death comes up again. And crossbows are quite nasty. Didn't the Roman Catholic Church try to ban them as heretical weapons or something like that because they were actually capable of puncturing knight's armor and killing them?

[Tapewolf]

It's Soula Cola! The only soda made from the souls of vengeful Beings! Bottled fresh by Jakob's Soda, Inc.!

Hold that thought, it'll come in handy.

And the soul thingy as worse than death comes up again.

Yes.  Jakob isn't exactly a bad person, but he's no angel either.  He has done the likes of that before.  However, actually destroying souls is not something he is willing to participate in.

And crossbows are quite nasty. Didn't the Roman Catholic Church try to ban them as heretical weapons or something like that because they were actually capable of puncturing knight's armor and killing them?

I don't know about that, though it sounds like the sort of thing they'd do.  Not that it was great, because if you outlawed them, only the outlaws would have the heretical weapons.
Also, longbows could do that too IIRC.

As for crossbows, the line about that in the original story was kind of poached from The Silver Wolf by Alice Borchardt, which is a rather good story about werewolves in 8th century Rome.


**EDIT**
I forgot to mention, this takes us 1/3 of the way into the backstory.  The next page continues the argument, after that things start to get moving.

[Ren Gaulen]

And crossbows are quite nasty. Didn't the Roman Catholic Church try to ban them as heretical weapons or something like that because they were actually capable of puncturing knight's armor and killing them?

No, the Church proclaimed that the crossbow can be used only against non-Christians.

[Tapewolf]

No, the Church proclaimed that the crossbow can be used only against non-Christians.

Presumably that would be in the war against the Infidels... otherwise, you'd have to kind of stop and ask if they were Christian before killing them 

[Jairus]

No, the Church proclaimed that the crossbow can be used only against non-Christians.

Presumably that would be in the war against the Infidels... otherwise, you'd have to kind of stop and ask if they were Christian before killing them 

*Christian holding a crossbow to some guy's head*
"Before I kill you, I have but one question for you..."
"Oh God please don't kill me!"
"Oh, you're a Christian? Oh, then never mind." *helps the guy up* "Sorry about that, no hard feelings? Hey, you, are you an infidel?"
"What in Allah's name is it to OH ALLAH YOU SHOT ME IN THE CHEST WHY DID YOU DO THAT–" *gets shot again*

Something like that?

[Tapewolf]

I heard from Ren last night that he is liable to be out of contact next week owing to various house refurbishment things.
Since I still don't have the line-art and have heard nothing from him since, it's quite possible that he got dragged into it sooner than he expected.

If I hear anything different I'll post updates here.  If I haven't heard from him by Monday, I'll run a Questions strip and update next week when I get the final lineart.

[Sprocketsdance]

Jakob can be so nice when he's threatening someone    And shouldn't that kid be a bit scared? Then again taking down seven cubi is nothing to sneeze at.. and even though the cross bow may take down a cubi.. but seven? I'm a little suspicious that he has something else up his sleeve..

[Tapewolf]

seven? I'm a little suspicious that he has something else up his sleeve..

He has had a bit of help.

[Gabi]

"'Now, hold on,' you keep saying. 'Aren't bows and arrows primitive and harmless?' Why don't you ask the dinosaurs? Except you can't, because the cavemen bow and arrowed them to death."
- Team Fortress 2 Update for the Sniper

Just replace "dinosaur" with "Cubi" and you get relevance!

You know... if you replaced "dinosaurs" with "mammoths", that sentence would make sense.

As for the Catholic church, that doesn't surprise me. One of the most damaging institutions the world has ever seen.

[Sunblink]

"'Now, hold on,' you keep saying. 'Aren't bows and arrows primitive and harmless?' Why don't you ask the dinosaurs? Except you can't, because the cavemen bow and arrowed them to death."
- Team Fortress 2 Update for the Sniper

Just replace "dinosaur" with "Cubi" and you get relevance!

You know... if you replaced "dinosaurs" with "mammoths", that sentence would make sense.

I know; the historical inaccuracy was completely and totally intentional. Or so I assume, seeing as it's generally common knowledge that cavemen did not exist around the same period as the dinosaurs.

Plus, Valve Corporation's humor is kind of like that.

[Jairus]

"'Now, hold on,' you keep saying. 'Aren't bows and arrows primitive and harmless?' Why don't you ask the dinosaurs? Except you can't, because the cavemen bow and arrowed them to death."
- Team Fortress 2 Update for the Sniper

Just replace "dinosaur" with "Cubi" and you get relevance!

You know... if you replaced "dinosaurs" with "mammoths", that sentence would make sense.

I know; the historical inaccuracy was completely and totally intentional. Or so I assume, seeing as it's generally common knowledge that cavemen did not exist around the same period as the dinosaurs.

Plus, Valve Corporation's humor is kind of like that.

Wait... you mean my coloring book showing Jesus riding a dinosaur isn't telling the truth?

And Valve does indeed have a... strange sense of humor like that.

[AmigaDragon]

You know, their timelines for the dinosaurs and the rest of history is just theory, not proven. I'm waiting for a dino dig to be unearthed with human and other mammal remains mixed in with (or under) the dino bones ... or at least in the same sedimentary layer. Or, among some medieval artifacts, something that was identified as dragon remains that turns out to be NON-fossilized dino remains.

[Jairus]

You know, their timelines for the dinosaurs and the rest of history is just theory, not proven. I'm waiting for a dino dig to be unearthed with human and other mammal remains mixed in with (or under) the dino bones ... or at least in the same sedimentary layer. Or, among some medieval artifacts, something that was identified as dragon remains that turns out to be NON-fossilized dino remains.

I wouldn't bother waiting. The thing about a scientific theory is that it's been tested repeatedly and shown to be true. Primates and dinosaurs alone are separated by millions of years, let alone humans and dinosaurs. Now, something like finding dinosaurs and humans together would throw a major wrench into current understandings of the evolution of life on Earth, but the odds of it happening are really really low. Unless you're joking here.

And something like the concept of a medieval dragon couldn't exist without magic. And if magic was proven to exist, within ten years there'd be an entire scientific field devoted to the study of magic, and in short order the study of magic would be alongside biology, physics, and every other field of science as a science in and of itself. Which would be awesome.

[AmigaDragon]

I'm entirely serious. There are so many scientific "proofs" out there that are based solely on theory (and perhaps circumstantial evidence) but lack any definitive proof.

[Sunblink]

I'm entirely serious. There are so many scientific "proofs" out there that are based solely on theory (and perhaps circumstantial evidence) but lack any definitive proof.

If humans lived in the same era as the tremendous carnivores such as Tyrannosaurus Rex, wouldn't they have completely died out? There would be no contest in the food chain.

[Jairus]

I'm entirely serious. There are so many scientific "proofs" out there that are based solely on theory (and perhaps circumstantial evidence) but lack any definitive proof.

The fact that no one has ever found hominid and saurian skeletons in the same sedimentary layer seems pretty damning to me. And as it is, and as far as I understand it, part of science is that there is no definitive proof. A theory cannot be proved, it can only be disproved. Basically, what we have is evidence, and theories are based on evidence. Evidence can either strengthen a theory, or disprove a theory. That's why it's called the theory of evolution: we don't know exactly how it works, but we can make an educated guess on how it works, based on the evidence collected. And we don't exactly have a lot of evidence for humans and dinosaurs living in the same time frame, and we have a whole lot of evidence that they never existed together. And if such evidence was found, then it would lead to a major shake-up of our current theories.

And as Keaton pointed out, we wouldn't have had much of a chance to evolve if we'd be in competition with the dinosaurs. If I recall correctly, the only mammals at the time were either mammal-like reptiles or small rodent-like animals.

[Cogidubnus]

If humans lived in the same era as the tremendous carnivores such as Tyrannosaurus Rex, wouldn't they have completely died out? There would be no contest in the food chain.

Well Keaton, you could ask the dinosaurs. Except you can't. Because we bowed and arrowed them to death.

*totally steals Keaton's stchick*

[Sunblink]

If humans lived in the same era as the tremendous carnivores such as Tyrannosaurus Rex, wouldn't they have completely died out? There would be no contest in the food chain.

Well Keaton, you could ask the dinosaurs. Except you can't. Because we bowed and arrowed them to death.

*totally steals Keaton's stchick*

HOLY FUCK, HOW DID I NOT REACH THAT CONCLUSION XDD

COG YOU ARE SO AWESOME

[Ren Gaulen]

If humans lived in the same era as the tremendous carnivores such as Tyrannosaurus Rex, wouldn't they have completely died out? There would be no contest in the food chain.

You are right. If the dinosaurs weren't killed by a meteorite, they were EATEN BY HUMANS!

[Tezkat]

Meh. Joking aside... humans throughout history and prehistory have demonstrated the ability to take down creatures much larger than themselves. (There's strong evidence that even paleolithic humans could drop a mammoth.)

Besides, humans would probably have been too small and sneaky to be regular prey for something the size of T rex. A carnivore that big would have had what... a maintenance diet in the hundreds of megacalories per day? That's a few dozen early hominids per week--quite unsustainable as a primary food source, especially given the energy that would have been expended catching them. Honestly, being big is a disadvantage unless food is also big and plentiful, which is probably why the dinosaurs died out in the first place. Well, that and chucking large rocks at them from space.

I'm entirely serious. There are so many scientific "proofs" out there that are based solely on theory (and perhaps circumstantial evidence) but lack any definitive proof.

Huh? By definition, the scientific method only deals with definitive disproofs. It's impossible to prove the correctness of a scientific theory because there can always be another explanation for the facts you observe. A theory becomes accepted when it withstands repeated attempts to falsify it.

For example, you could claim "the sky is blue" as fact--an observation you can easily verify by looking out your window. On the other hand, "the sky will always be blue" is just a theory. You don't know that the sky will still be blue tomorrow. It's just something that you can accept based on a mountain of evidence. Someone who only looked out their window at sunset might produce very a different theory about the colour of the sky. Indeed, those observations disprove the theory that "the sky will always be blue". Thus, you'd need a new theory to account for the fact that the sky changes colour at sunset. Say "a the sky is always blue during the day", or something to that effect. Eventually, someone comes up a theory of optics that explains why the sky is blue during the day and pretty shades of orange and purple at sunset.

And so scientific theory evolves.

Dinosaurs not being contemporary with humans is currently in "the sky appears blue during the day because our nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere selectively scatters visible light in the sub-500nm wavelengths" territory. It's something that you can consider to be true within a high safety margin. On the other hand, "Noah had breeding pairs of Tyrannosaurus rex on his ark" is not something that a reasonable person would be justified in accepting as truth.

So... which of the scientific theories explaining why humans didn't live with dinosaurs are you contesting?

And something like the concept of a medieval dragon couldn't exist without magic. And if magic was proven to exist, within ten years there'd be an entire scientific field devoted to the study of magic, and in short order the study of magic would be alongside biology, physics, and every other field of science as a science in and of itself. Which would be awesome.

What concept can't exist without magic now?

I might add that there have been university departments and peer-reviewed journals dedicated to parapsychology for a century now. I even took a course in paranormal philosophy at university. It's serious business!

[Tapewolf]

You are right. If the dinosaurs weren't killed by a meteorite, they were EATEN BY HUMANS!

Don't be silly.  They were hunted to extinction by modern man as big game, using a temporal portal created by a cat-faced alien.

[Tezkat]

Don't be silly.  They were hunted to extinction by modern man as big game, using a temporal portal created by a cat-faced alien.

So we didn't eat them after hunting them down? I bet they taste kinda like chicken...

[Jairus]

You are right. If the dinosaurs weren't killed by a meteorite, they were EATEN BY HUMANS!

Don't be silly.  They were hunted to extinction by modern man as big game, using a temporal portal created by a cat-faced alien.

"9 used & new from £0.01."

That's... kind of sad, really. How did you learn about this book, Tape?

[Tapewolf]

That's... kind of sad, really. How did you learn about this book, Tape?

Part of my Dad's collection.  To be honest, I didn't notice the price.  I might snag it, actually.
IIRC it was published as "Mastodonia" in the US.

[Tezkat]

Simak did win a rather large number of Hugo and Nebula awards, but he's probably better known by the older generation of SF fans...