02/08/09 [DMFA #969] - Negotiations continue

[Tapewolf]

What's the timing of that (those) panel(s) in 388? Was DP already dead or was it a flashback to some previous time?

We apparently saw the entirety of the first and last encounters between Dan and DP.  That scene did not happen in either of them, ergo it must have come in between the two.  My guess would be the second encounter, but it's just a hunch.

Other than Aary (and of course Dee), there's no indication at this point that anyone has a clue who Destania's child is.

Well, my reasoning is that Dan did one of those hero speeches, e.g. "I am Daniel Ti'Fiona, son of Destania!", and we're seeing the result in strip 388.

How much who told? DP?

Yes.

If he deduced during the last fight that Dan is Incubus, he had no chance to tell anyone, unless someone speaks with the dead.

There were more than two encounters.  I make at least four (First meeting, where Dan basically failed, and in the last meeting where Dan says he's thwarted DP twice before).

Anyway, back to Regina, she knows from Devin that there's a 'cubi in the house, so whether she already knows Dan or not, she'll know now what he is despite hidden headwings. BTW, I'm not sure yet that Kria knows, she only mentioned "incubus level hot". It may imply she knows, but doesn't necessarily outright say she does.

Maybe.  They only know that Dan is a representative of the 'Cubi - they might send an ally (or heck, someone disposable) of a different race.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

If he deduced during the last fight that Dan is Incubus, he had no chance to tell anyone, unless someone speaks with the dead.

Speaking to the dead is easy. It's getting the dead to talk back to you that's the impressive bit...

There were more than two encounters.  I make at least four (First meeting, where Dan basically failed, and in the last meeting where Dan says he's thwarted DP twice before).

Arguably, in that first meeting, Dan _did_ end up thwarting Dead Pegasus. However, he didn't kill him.

In strip 153, Dan says he killed Dead Pegasus once before. So he's killed Dead Pegasus twice in total, now.

I make that only three necessary meetings, not four... depending on how thwarted Peggy was in the first round...

[Tapewolf]

Arguably, in that first meeting, Dan _did_ end up thwarting Dead Pegasus. However, he didn't kill him.

I'm not sure I buy Dan thwarting DP in that story at all.

Shanna and Aliyka smash up the castle, which comes closest to thwarting him.  Meanwhile, Dan ricks his ankle, is kidnapped, his friend dies in front of his eyes, and he is finally shot by DP.  The most heroic things he achieves are hitting a guard on the head, taking Hannah off the wall and attacking DP with a halberd which results in Anna getting a smashed jaw and him getting nearly killed.  DP only halts his scheme in order to get dinner.

Am I missing something?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

"me and my friends", if you will. *cough*

Sort of appropriating what Aliyka did.

[Baal Hadad]

What would happen if DP had had to fight Dan again and realize that he was a cubi now?

I think he had a fairly good clue, if 388 is anything to go by - he knew that Dan was at least possibly an incubus.

What's the timing of that (those) panel(s) in 388? Was DP already dead or was it a flashback to some previous time? Other than Aary (and of course Dee), there's no indication at this point that anyone has a clue who Destania's child is.

I'm just saying since Regina is no doubt unaware that said cubi had confronted DP as a being.

How much he told others is unclear, of course...

How much who told? DP? If he deduced during the last fight that Dan is Incubus, he had no chance to tell anyone, unless someone speaks with the dead. Dan? Yeah, he'd probably spread news in the adventurer bars that DP was dead (again) at his hands. And as far as his 'cubi status, few know that yet. Merlitz's former team thinks that Alexsi (not Dan) is a succubus. Since they didn't notice (didn't check?) "Merbel", perhaps they don't know the mechanics of a 'cubi's shape shifting. If they had checked, would they have even noticed Abel's transformed state (same with dragons and whatever else has shape shifting ability)? Maybe "Danlexsi's" transformation magic was so blatant that they forgot to check anyone else around the inn.
Anyway, back to Regina, she knows from Devin that there's a 'cubi in the house, so whether she already knows Dan or not, she'll know now what he is despite hidden headwings. BTW, I'm not sure yet that Kria knows, she only mentioned "incubus level hot". It may imply she knows, but doesn't necessarily outright say she does.

I always thought it had something to do with the fact that Abel changed naturally, and Dan didn't.  Even if there's nothing inherent in natural shapeshifting vs. full magic transformations, Dan isn't used to it, so he probably didn't know how to keep morphing magic hidden from those who could sense it--if he was even able to do so, since he didn't shapeshift naturally.

That said, I notice Abel didn't do anything to hide the morphing magic from Merlitz's buddies (he's the one who put the spell on Dan, so you'd think he could do something, and certainly would given that they were hired to investigate cubi), but then again, he was so nervous that it probably wasn't the first thing on his mind.  And they all left right after Dan appeared at the bar anyway, so he probably wouldn't even have considered it necessary.

Then again, that might have been part of the reason, now I think of it, why Abel told them all to leave when he did--maybe he sensed that Dan was coming down and was worried they'd sense that he was a cubi in disguise.  That might account for why he was breathing so heavily once they left....  On the other hand, I don't know if Abel cared that much about Dan or was more worried about himself--clearly they didn't notice that HE had morphing magic, so I guess he was able to hide his own shapeshift, but he might have been worried about Dan....  I don't know, maybe some combination of both?  That's something to think about....

[Alterationartist]

This has gotta be the the most thoroughly explored and intelligently discussed comic thread I've heard yet.

[inuhanyo]

Re 388.  Consider the context, and the fact that the first three panels have black borders.  Those panels are in Dan's head.  Not memories, but his imagination showing reasons why he doesn't like the idea of being a cubi.  The first two are imagined reactions to the news that Daniel Ti'fona is a cubi, one by Regina, one by DP.

Merlitz's former team thinks that Alexsi (not Dan) is a succubus.

They noticed the morphing magic from Abel's spell, they didn't notice Abel's own shapeshifting. 

Genesis4:  "You saw her! She had so much morphing magic how can you not tell she's a succubus in disguise."

They are assuming Alexsi is a succubus (and they don't even know her name) based on the morphing magic they sensed and external circumstances.  If or when they come back, they'll find no morphing magic on Alexsi, and I think cubi shapeshifting is subtle enough they'll have to be actively look to find it.

Abel had enough reason to rush them out before his disguise was penetrated.  They all knew Merlitz, after all.  And they had mind shields, so Abel was at risk of blowing his disguise just by being ignorant of some minor fact.

We know Dan has thwarted DP at least twice (118 and 150), and that DP has been resurrected at least three times (941).  The way DP talked, it gives the impression that no small part of Dan's adventuring career has been being DP's Nemesis.

[Tapewolf]

Re 388.  Consider the context, and the fact that the first three panels have black borders.  Those panels are in Dan's head.  Not memories, but his imagination showing reasons why he doesn't like the idea of being a cubi.  The first two are imagined reactions to the news that Daniel Ti'fona is a cubi, one by Regina, one by DP.

At the risk of seeming pushy here, I don't buy that.  Leaving aside that Dan's memories are also in his head, the strip is titled "Memories always tread the line of humour and drama".

Besides which, DP's reaction seems to be one of "oh sh--", which actually benefits Dan by making him panic and putting him off guard.
If he was tormenting himself with imagined scenes, a far more persuasive panel would be Jyrras or Alexsi leading a pitchfork mob to kill him, or him standing over Merlitz' corpse with his tentacles out (this is actually Dan's worst fear) - and it would also be obvious that those are imagined scenes and not flashbacks.

[inuhanyo]

Re 388.  Consider the context, and the fact that the first three panels have black borders.  Those panels are in Dan's head.  Not memories, but his imagination showing reasons why he doesn't like the idea of being a cubi.  The first two are imagined reactions to the news that Daniel Ti'fona is a cubi, one by Regina, one by DP.

At the risk of seeming pushy here, I don't buy that.  Leaving aside that Dan's memories are also in his head, the strip is titled "Memories always tread the line of humour and drama".

Besides which, DP's reaction seems to be one of "oh sh--", which actually benefits Dan by making him panic and putting him off guard.
If he was tormenting himself with imagined scenes, a far more persuasive panel would be Jyrras or Alexsi leading a pitchfork mob to kill him, or him standing over Merlitz' corpse with his tentacles out (this is actually Dan's worst fear) - and it would also be obvious that those are imagined scenes and not flashbacks.

But Dan didn't learn that he was a cubi until well after the last time he killed DP.  And 388 is the first reference to Regina we ever got.  We didn't learn the the blood on her hands was probably Wildy's until the cast page was updated when Regina showed up in the current storyline.  Nearly killing Wildy is only referenced on Regina's updated cast page, so that incident must have happended before the comic even started.

[Tapewolf]

But Dan didn't learn that he was a cubi until well after the last time he killed DP.

I didn't say he did.  However, he knew his mother's name (*) and by the looks of it DP knew her reputation and race, even if Dan himself didn't.  If some winged guy announces that he's the son of a known succubus and that he's going to thwart your evil plan, the leap that said winged guy is also 'Cubi isn't hard to make.

And 388 is the first reference to Regina we ever got.  We didn't learn the the blood on her hands was probably Wildy's until the cast page was updated when Regina showed up in the current storyline.  Nearly killing Wildy is only referenced on Regina's updated cast page, so that incident must have happended before the comic even started.

No argument there.  If memory serves, the entire comic fits within a month of realtime for Dan and co.  The gist of my argument where Regina is concerned was that DP realises that the blue-winged guy who has it in for him is most likely an incubus (before Dan himself realises this).  He then mentions this to Kria, and it trickles down to Regina.  I wasn't suggesting that she was directly connected.



(*) Even if he forgot in a harebrained moment some years later)

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... and that DP has been resurrected at least three times (941).

Twice. This is the third time, and he hasn't been resurrected, yet.

Negotiations continue, y'know... ;-]

[AmigaDragon]

Negotiations continue, y'know... ;-]

And could have gone like this...

[inuhanyo]

... and that DP has been resurrected at least three times (941).

Twice. This is the third time, and he hasn't been resurrected, yet.

Negotiations continue, y'know... ;-]

from 941

Lorenda:  Ugh. Don't mind my mom.  She gets really stressed out whenever she is bringing uncle Aliph back from the dead.

Dan: ... Oh you have got to be kidding me.

Lorenda:  Tell me about it.  You'd think that after the first two times she did it....

Lorenda's last line makes a lot more sense if Aliph has been brought back at least three times, rather than just twice before.  This is why I said that DP had been brought back at least three times.

[Corgatha Taldorthar]

Other people besides Dan might have been able to off DP.

[inuhanyo]

Other people besides Dan might have been able to off DP.

Which is why I'm not claiming that Dan killed DP at least three times, only that DP has been resurrected (and therefore died) at least three times.

Though it is a plausible hypotheses that Dan and DP have had at it many times, with Dan always surviving and DP oftentimes not.  Kria's remarks in 944 "This is the fellow who has been killing Aliph. ... I've always wanted to face off against my brother's slayer..." certainly suggest that Dan has been DP's preeminent foe.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Lorenda:  Tell me about it.  You'd think that after the first two times she did it....

... that, this time, she'd have learnt better.

Or so it seems to me.