Tolerance issues!

[Omega]

Order does not imply happiness. I can be quite happy smoking my children, thanks.

Now see here, sir. I was just trying to say that drugs break lives. If you absolutely must to misunderstand me, then add some kind of joke in your argument, alright. Otherwise I get too serious and t

I'm not gonna have another debate on which are cuter: puppies or kittens.

I don't believe in absoluts, but that doesn't mean I have to agree everything that you think. Yes too much lawful aligment is bad, but the opposite isn't exactly too tempting either, now is it?

[Valynth]

Wow, much racism in these quotes.  No matter how I try to slice it, it seems that you're trying to say "the Chinese are inferior animal-people who will constantly kill themselves if they are allowed freedom."

No. nononononononononononono-no-no-no-no-niiiiie.

You are not getting what I'm trying to tell you. I blame myself. Well, at least basilisk got what I was after.

Your point seems to be that the government is the evil. I'm trying to tell you that the society is created by the people. In other words, you cannot blame the people in charge without blaming the people. China is not ruled by a tyrant (not after Mao anyway). It is ruled by a small group of people who are balancing on the edge of a knife. Make a wrong decision and you got millions of people wanting to kill you. A perfect society is created by perfect people. Not so perfect society is created by not so perfect people.

I'm not a racist. I've proven that to myself time after time after time again. A racist would say that these people suck be cause they're Chinese. I say that these people are Chinese, because they think different from us. Please don't mix the order of these. If I don't like some members of minority, because they are noisy, tend to do nothing and offending everyone else, does not make me a racist. I dislike them because I don't like them as a person, not what they are. Besides, I've never said that I hate Chinese or that they wouldn't be equal to the rest of the world! I said (or at least very much tried to) that there is probably a very good reason why their freedom is limited. If they want it to change, they can damn well do it by themselves.

And my point:  No, no they can't.  The military of China won't let the Chinese masses change the system.  it's not that the Chinese necessarily like their system it's just that they can't do jack about without getting killed/imprisoned by the military junta that runs China.  And how does the military do this?  Brand everyone who disagrees as a traitor/rioter.

And thus the reason China "has so many riots" is explained.

[Cogidubnus]

Yes too much lawful aligment is bad, but the opposite isn't exactly too tempting either, now is it?

That depends - is the lawful alignment engaging in heinous violations of the basic dignity and rights afforded to man, in the name of order?

I do think you are right. There is a balance to be struck. This is not to say that the correct one has been found in China.

[Omega]

I'm not saying that China couldn't do better, but I am saying that you people are complaining on things that you cannot help. Oh sure, you can whine about it all you want, but that's about it you can do.

And me? I'm just the kind of guy who doesn't like to whine and tries to bring opposing point of view to the conversation so that people would not end up just agreeing with each other.

So basicly you think that the people of China are being opressed by their goverment. Geez-a-weez. We better send in the sub to deal with this bad goverment and free the common people. Am I tripping, or does that sound familiar somehow?



If the Chinese want change, they are gonna do it by themselves, no matter the cost. If they don't, they just probably want to make by with what they have, as do I. The change will probably come, but we'll get less bodies if we let it come slowly.

[Cogidubnus]

I'm not saying that China couldn't do better, but I am saying that you people are complaining on things that you cannot help. Oh sure, you can whine about it all you want, but that's about it you can do.

And me? I'm just the kind of guy who doesn't like to whine and tries to bring opposing point of view to the conversation so that people would not end up just agreeing with each other.

So basicly you think that the people of China are being opressed by their goverment. Geez-a-weez. We better send in the sub to deal with this bad goverment and free the common people. Am I tripping, or does that sound familiar somehow?



If the Chinese want change, they are gonna do it by themselves, no matter the cost. If they don't, they just probably want to make by with what they have, as do I. The change will probably come, but we'll get less bodies if we let it come slowly.

Who'se warmongering? I agree with you entirely. I am merely trying to make a point about order, and what it means.

Besides, productivity, in my philosophical debate? It's more likely than you think. There are wars that are not fought on fields, by soldiers and tanks, but of ideas in peoples hearts and minds.

[Valynth]

If the Chinese want change, they are gonna do it by themselves, no matter the cost. If they don't, they just probably want to make by with what they have, as do I. The change will probably come, but we'll get less bodies if we let it come slowly.

...China had a population estimate of around 3 billion people in 1980-90 as of 2007 they have a population estimate of 1.7 billion.  That certain doesn't entail a lot of bodies now does it?

[Jack McSlay]

I have a very simple opinion about China:

China = Matrix

[Brunhidden]

its sad when they ban movies like 'antz' because apparently individualism is considered offensive, dangerous, and treason

[Vidar]

China is changing, and it will continue to do so, but it will come slowly. A lot of chinese have been brought up with absolute respect for authority, and with little respect for the individual. These things are deeply ingrained in Chinese culture, and deeply ingrained things are very difficult to change. If you try to do this too fast, there will be a backlash, and you might end up making things even worse. The current situation in China is far from ideal, but I am hopeful that it will slowly change for the better.

[Omega]

...China had a population estimate of around 3 billion people in 1980-90 as of 2007 they have a population estimate of 1.7 billion.  That certain doesn't entail a lot of bodies now does it?

Oh for the crying out loud. You're just twisting my words whenever you can.

First of all, where did you learn that there was 3 billion people in China two centuries ago?

Second of all, do you think that millions dead by violence in a short amount of time is better than millions dead by old age in a long period of time? People equals bodies, but there's a difference if the bodies are scattered onto streets and battlefields than collected and burried.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Out of interest, Omega, where did you get the two centuries figure?

I mean, I'd be interested to know where his figures for two years ago, and for 19-29 years ago, came from. I just can't see where "two hundred years ago" was listed...

[Mao]

Out of interest, Omega, where did you get the two centuries figure?

I mean, I'd be interested to know where his figures for two years ago, and for 19-29 years ago, came from. I just can't see where "two hundred years ago" was listed...

I think it's a typo maybe?  Likely he meant two decades?

[Omega]

Out of interest, Omega, where did you get the two centuries figure?

I mean, I'd be interested to know where his figures for two years ago, and for 19-29 years ago, came from. I just can't see where "two hundred years ago" was listed...

I think it's a typo maybe?  Likely he meant two decades?

yes -.-

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.


... and the question still remains: where did the numbers come from? And how much guesswork was involved?

[Brunhidden]

... and the question still remains: where did the numbers come from? And how much guesswork was involved?

this is your bum, this is a road map, and waaaay over there is google which you can use to find the official census reports

[Mao]

The problem with that, Brun, is that most people can't tell the difference from the first thing to everything else.

[Brunhidden]

The problem with that, Brun, is that most people can't tell the difference from the first thing to everything else.

well those people can shove it up their hobo for all i care

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... and the question still remains: where did the numbers come from? And how much guesswork was involved?

this is your bum, this is a road map, and waaaay over there is google which you can use to find the official census reports

I'm not asking where _I_ can find these numbers. I'm asking where Valynth found his.

I'm sure, if I looked around, I could find official census numbers. I'm just curious as to what standard of reliability Valynth is quoting from, since that has further repercussions than just if he got it right this time...

[Noone]

Well, for figures that I managed to find here: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/09s1288.pdf

First number is 1990, second is 2000, third is 2008

China . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,148,364 1,268,853 1,330,045

Also a note from the same source:

With the establishment of diplomatic relations with China on January 1, 1979, the U.S. government recognized the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China and acknowledged the Chinese position that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China.

[Omega]

What Kobra and Brunnhinded seems to fail to grasp, is that rest of us are trying to roast Valynth's family jewels! I'm not intrested what it the actual population of China, but where Valynth got this ridiculous number of THREE BILLION PEOPLE in a single nation!

I just want to know what's his source or what babies he's been smoking.

[Zina]

Based on experience, asking Valynth to cite his sources is about when he stops responding...

[Omega]

 


right, moving on....

[Brunhidden]

Based on experience, asking Valynth to cite his sources is about when he stops responding...

we should do it earlier then

[Valynth]

Based on experience, asking Valynth to cite his sources is about when he stops responding...

Mostly because it, at that point, simply dissolves into a shit-storm of "but this guys says that!"  And on the internet, you can find anyone to say anything that looks legitimate, but is a fake.

There's also the point that you have a tendency to ban me when I do.

[Zina]

Asking you to tell us where you got your information is not too much to ask. The fact that you apparently refuse to do so implies that you simply pulled some numbers out of your ass.
Really, if you're going to engage someone in a debate, and you start sprouting out random facts to help your argument, you should be able to back up your 'facts' if they're ever questioned. That's pretty common knowledge.
And when have you ever been banned for citing your sources?

[Valynth]

Asking you to tell us where you got your information is not too much to ask. The fact that you apparently refuse to do so implies that you simply pulled some numbers out of your ass.
Really, if you're going to engage someone in a debate, and you start sprouting out random facts to help your argument, you should be able to back up your 'facts' if they're ever questioned. That's pretty common knowledge.
And when have you ever been banned for citing your sources?

Back in some global-warming discussion.  Infact, I do believe it was you who did the banning.

Mostly because I used the word "bash" to say what my sources did to the "man makes global warming" argument that some were making.  And no warning was ever issued I believe.

Also, it appears I was using faulty data.  Apparently some Chinese didn't report deaths in the earlier census in order to get more rations.  Apologies all around.

AS for the 1.7 billion, I can't find the particular article that mentioned it, but if it is true I wonder how they did that.... with a government trying to keep the population down.

[Zina]

If I recall correctly, that entire thread was warned, since it was getting very heated and hostile. We had asked everyone to tone it down.
You were not banned because of your sources. You were banned because you said "Got any other views I can bash as completely as this?" in a thread where we told everyone to keep it civil and not get hostile. I believe that was explained to you as the reason for the ban. NOT because of your sources. That is just ridiculous.

[Valynth]

If I recall correctly, that entire thread was warned, since it was getting very heated and hostile. We had asked everyone to tone it down.
You were not banned because of your sources. You were banned because you said "Got any other views I can bash as completely as this?" in a thread where we told everyone to keep it civil and not get hostile. I believe that was explained to you as the reason for the ban. NOT because of your sources. That is just ridiculous.

To be honest, I felt it was more silly than agressive (like a Dwarf downing the most power ale in the building then asking "got any more?"), but eh, you made the call I got booted for a few days. *shrugs* live and learn.

[superluser]

Mostly because it, at that point, simply dissolves into a shit-storm of "but this guys says that!"  And on the internet, you can find anyone to say anything that looks legitimate, but is a fake.

Can you point me to a discussion where that, in fact, happened?

I think someone once took me to task for talking about the Stern Report, but I think I just said that you either accepted Stern or you didn't and moved on.  Hardly a shitstorm.

[Zina]

Valynth, You weren't banned for a "few days". You were banned for a whole 24 hours. And -I- did not make the call. All the moderators vote whether or not something is ban worthy. The majority of the mods made the call. I was simply the one that got tagged with the job of handing out the ban.

And if you have any problems with something the moderators do, you are more than welcome to talk to one of us privately and not air your frustrations in a completely different thread a whole three months later.