Quality power supplies (Yes, *yet another* Robbie topic)

[RobbieThe1st]

Hi. As you all probably know, I have been building myself a new computer, and have started two or three threads dedicated to different parts of the operation.
You all have helped me out a lot, and I have ended up taking the advice of various members once I understood everything. So far, these decisions seem to be good, in that everything I have gotten has worked perfectly.

In this topic, I shall be attempting to find myself a newer, more upgradable power supply than my current OCZ SilentXStream 600SXS 600W model(I have been given an opportunity to use this current PSU in a different machine, and get another).

The machine this is going into(Note: I already have all these pieces/are being shipped currently.):

• CPU: AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-core 2.5GHZ
• Motherboard: Asus Crosshair II Formula
• Memory: 2GB Dual-channel(2X1GB) OCZ DDR2 800
• Harddisk(s): 1/2 640GB Western Digital(Perhaps even a third, unknown as of present)
• Video Card: EVGA 896-P3-1260-AR GeForce GTX 260 896MB(Plan to, if needed, get a second and SLI em)
• Case: CoolerMaster WaveMaster

I started my search on Newegg, like always, and found two likely candidates:
Newegg comparison.

Make/model	Price (checkout)	Price (after rebate)	Rated power	Maximum power	Ripple(12V)	Ripple(5V)	Ripple(3.3v)
Corsair TX750W	$119.99	$99.99	750W	900W<	~90.6/103 mV	~8.8 mV	~16 mV
PC P&C 750 Quad Black	$134.99	$99.99	750W	868W	~50mV	~18.6 mV	~20.4 mV

They both look pretty good, although just a tad noisy.

The Corsair has no OCP - it can be run way above its rated capacity(though this may damage components if it is run too high), and at good temps also(Note that trying above the 900w figure caused the testing lab circuit breaker to blow, so it could potentially go above this). It has a high 12V ripple, though still within spec, but a much lower 5V and lower 3.3v ripple.

The PC Power & Cooling has OCP - it *does* have a fixed limit, shutting down at 830W, and again has good temps under maximum possible load. It has a lower 12V ripple than the Corsair, but a much higher 5V ripple, and a bit higher 3.3V ripple.


Now, both models here have a single 12V rail - I thought this safer, because this way I don't have to worry about putting too much load on one set of connectors(aside from wire-ratings). I had heard things about it being better than multiple 12V rails, but I really don't know.

I am looking for something that will be stable 100% of the time under the worst load I can throw at it. I am looking for something that has four 6-pin PCI-E connectors, and has enough other connectors to connect everything else I can possibly find to connect to it(Having extra loose connectors is fine). Thirdly, I am looking for something that is somewhat future-proofed, in that I ought to be able to get at least one major upgrade out of it(which my current PSU certainly did).
My budget is around $120-$150, though it depends on what I find(I don't want a cheap one that is going to fail on me).


Have any thoughts, ideas, constructive criticism, or anything else for me? Post it!

Thanks,


-RobbieThe1st

[VSMIT]

With your current setup, either one will be fine, but if you decide to do any kind of SLI with them, I'd go with a larger PSU.  3-way, definitely, but I'm not sure if a 750 has enough oomph to handle SLI with the GTX200 cards.

With regards to your other components...  You can save money on the video card by going with the MSI GTX260 instead of the eVGA.  Depending on how much the OCZ Memory costs, unless it's the Reaper really cheap, I'd go with Kingston HyperX instead.  Less expensive and definitely reliable.  Just my 2 cents on these, though.  Disregard if you feel them to be unfounded.

Good luck.

[RobbieThe1st]

With your current setup, either one will be fine, but if you decide to do any kind of SLI with them, I'd go with a larger PSU.  3-way, definitely, but I'm not sure if a 750 has enough oomph to handle SLI with the GTX200 cards.

Thats also what I am not sure about. Now, I would like some proper wattage numbers, but what I did find was that a complete basic benchmarking system(cpu, mobo, ram, hd, video card) was running at ~350W under full load with a single GTX260. With that number, I figure that probably no less than 150W is going to the CPU/memory/everything else, so 200W per card would be on the large side of things. With those numbers, it should run two fine, but 3 would be a little iffy with my system.
Now, there may be a large spike when I turn the comp on, but I would imagine that the PSU would handle it fine, considering they can deal with a peak load of 830/900W(what matters more though is the 12V peak).
That's just my reasoning; I would like some real numbers, because I really am *not* sure.

With regards to your other components...  You can save money on the video card by going with the MSI GTX260 instead of the eVGA.  Depending on how much the OCZ Memory costs, unless it's the Reaper really cheap, I'd go with Kingston HyperX instead.  Less expensive and definitely reliable.  Just my 2 cents on these, though.  Disregard if you feel them to be unfounded.

Good luck.

Oops, I forgot to mention - Those other components I already own. I have edited my post accordingly.

Memory wise, I got it off ebay decently cheap, and the video card wasn't much more than the MSI model(And the MSI had a few things missing - Connectors and such, at least according to Newegg reviews). Still, I can't change my mind now..


-RobbieThe1st

[Ryudo Lee]

Here's a 1000W PSU for ya.  I particularly like the Ultra brand because it's modular, and that it's never failed on me.  I have a 550W in my machine right now.

[Tapewolf]

Is 12v ripple going to matter much?
The fans aren't going to care, in fact they'll probably add some.  The only other thing I can think of are the disks, which (a) probably have voltage regulation onboard anyway, (b) are almost certainly servo-controlled.

[Gamma]

Good choices so far.
Another brand to consider would be Mushkin or Antec, if either had a decent one on sale right now.
I have had a mixed bag with the Ultra psu's. A 400watt I have is still going strong but two 500 watts had to be sent in for replacement at least once, but those still work.

I would certainly go no lower then a 750watt, true power, if you ever think of an SLi setup. The GTX cards and the HD4000 series don't require as much power as the first DX10 cards did. Both companies have been doing better in regards to power.
It is slightly possible that you could get away with a 750 but I'd go 850 if possible.
I hate myself, 1.5 years ago I missed a 850 watt Antec for $100! at the Compusa I worked at. No rebate either

Also just as a comparison for ya, my computer runs Fallout3, Assassin's Creed, and Deadspace perfectly fine with the highest quality settings plus AA. Crysis runs around 20fps on average but that's also at highest settings with no AA. Resolution is 1920 X 1080 on all of them. I don't pay much attention to FPS anymore, as long as it plays well.
CPU: Intel Q6600 2.4 GHz
Ram: 2GB Corsair XMS 800
MB:  XFX 680i LT
VID: ATi 2900 512MB
PSU: Mushkin 650watt peak, 550 normal.

FYI, I find it funny that when ATi's 4870 launched it was already close to the high end GTX cards for half the price while beating the 9800s.
That's moot now but at the time it was great.

[VSMIT]

There's also this one, an 850 watt Corsair PSU.

$149.99 before rebate, $129.99 after.

[Gamma]

I only recommended Mushkin cause I have one. Memory manufacturers should stick with memory. PSU's are quite different electrically.

You get a first hand example when you take one apart after wondering about the rattling that caused it's doom. Come to find out the custom PSU, for a custom HP case, literally blew apart one of it's voltage regulators. Fun looking before I stripped out it's custom harness and wired it to an adapter attached to a typical slimline PSU. Machine works fine and dandy now.

[RobbieThe1st]

Is 12v ripple going to matter much?
The fans aren't going to care, in fact they'll probably add some.  The only other thing I can think of are the disks, which (a) probably have voltage regulation on-board anyway, (b) are almost certainly servo-controlled.

What I am worried about are not the fans or the disks, but the Motherboard(CPU power) & GPU, which both use a *lot* off the 12V rail. Now, I know they use their own voltage regulators, however I am not sure how much the systems in my current Motherboard and GPU are able to handle ripple. I suspect that they will handle it fine, but I am not sure enough to just buy it and hope for the best.

Good choices so far.
Another brand to consider would be Mushkin or Antec, if either had a decent one on sale right now.

Antec I have used before and have had decent though mixed results: We have had several TrueBlue 480W PSUs that worked fine, although after a while they seem to have developed an annoying whine(perhaps caps going?). Out of three, we currently have one which still works[hums LOUDLY now], and one unknown) We also have two Earthwatts 50W models which we got to replace the TrueBlue's, and so far neither have failed, however one has developed a very high pitched hum(teen-buzz high), and the second, which I am using right now in the above system seems to be working, although SpeedFan is showing the -5V rail at -8.78V and the -12 at -16.97V! Everything else seems to be fine, and admittedly I haven't tested the above rails with a multimeter... But it seems off.

Mushkin, I have no clue about, however off the top of my head I didn't see any when I was looking for single-rail PSUs 750W=< on Newegg.

It is slightly possible that you could get away with a 750 but I'd go 850 if possible.

There's also this one, an 850 watt Corsair PSU.

$149.99 before rebate, $129.99 after.

I have been looking at this, and it looks pretty good - Upgraded model of the 750 and all. I haven't found any good reviews as to the overload potential of this unit however.



http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1329451
I just found a little info about the GTX 260/280s and power usage:

GTX 260 has a TDP of 182W which is ~15 amps total on 12V (5V current draw should be minimal). Those 15A will be split between the PCIe slot and the 2 connectors, and each source should draw no more than ~6A (75W), so you should be fine as long as you spread the load across your rails.

Now, with a split-rail model we might have trouble, however with a single 60A(rated) rail... dual 260s would only be drawing 30A total, half of the rated.


One last thing:
Modular power supplies - I have heard good things and bad. The good is that you don't have to have all the extra cables if you don't want em, helping to keep your case neat, and perhaps improving air circulation. The bad is that you have a second set of connectors to worry about, which adds resistance(at least, in theory). I have however heard people saying that it really isn't much extra resistance, and doesn't matter. Still, you have a second set of connectors to get broken/overheated and fail. Can anyone shed some light on the matter?


-RobbieThe1st

[VSMIT]

I like modular, but it's hard to find any made by a known manufacturer that are in the rating/price range you want.  The only one I can think of that would definitely work is the Corsair HX1000, which costs ~$260.  Generally modular PSUs are more expensive, with a Thermaltake 850 watt costing ~$230.  Unless airflow is going to be a major problem, and you don't have any way to route cables or hide unused ones, just go with a non-modular PSU.  If you're on a tight budget, don't get modular.  Even if you're not on a tight budget, find the PSU that has the capabilities you want and get that one, whether it's modular or not.

[RobbieThe1st]

I like modular, but it's hard to find any made by a known manufacturer that are in the rating/price range you want.  The only one I can think of that would definitely work is the Corsair HX1000, which costs ~$260.  Generally modular PSUs are more expensive, with a Thermaltake 850 watt costing ~$230.  Unless airflow is going to be a major problem, and you don't have any way to route cables or hide unused ones, just go with a non-modular PSU.  If you're on a tight budget, don't get modular.  Even if you're not on a tight budget, find the PSU that has the capabilities you want and get that one, whether it's modular or not.

Modular power wise, I suspected as much. I am however looking for more clarification as to the real-world downsides of a modular PSU.

I just found a review with power consumption info on a tri-SLI GTX 280. They were talking about 749W under peak load with TRI-sli GTX 280(I assume from reading the article that this is power taken at the outlet, which, at 80% efficiency would be ~600W from the PSU), and even if not TRI-sli GTX 260 would be less, and I think my AMD quad-core processor is goind to take less if not the same than the Intel used in that review.

Unless I miss my guess, a TRUE 750W, so long as its single-rail/properly configured multi-rail and has enough 12V capacity should be able to handle tri-GTX280s
barely, TRI-GTX260s OK, and dual-GTX260s/280s easily.

Also, unless my calculations are messed up somewhere, the Corsair 750/850 ought to be the perfect monster for this setup - Not too expensive, with enough overload capacity to handle any spikes or peaks not in the above review with room to spare.


Could anyone check these calculations & theories?

Thanks,


-RobbieThe1st

P.S. I made this post on my new comp, or what is currently built of it, with No Mouse(Tab, shift-tab, and other firefox shortcuts FTW. I only had to use MouseKeys when I was checking something on Newegg)

[Gamma]

Well my Mushkin is modular but it still has problems. The cables are stiff and very long. They gathered the same type connections together, molex on two cables, sata on one. Three molex on each of it's leads and four satas on that lead so I still had to use all of them and hide the extra. That's probably just a symptom of poor design.
I don't see a bad side to it except the leads, my power requirements may not be enough to cause a failure point with the secondary connectors.

Even overclocking the quad to 3.2 GHz I still had stability but overall heat output was not worth a gain that I would never see. Cryengine 2 games are more limited on my machine by the video card then CPU and those are the only ones that would benefit. Everything else has no problem with 2.4 GHz except encoding and the like. I hardly ever do an encode on my main rig and my PVR is on all the time so I would rather send it the load instead of my loud obnoxious machine. I need a set of quiet fans or just a new case that takes a bunch of 120mms.
Water, pfft.. hell no.

[RobbieThe1st]

Well my Mushkin is modular but it still has problems. The cables are stiff and very long. They gathered the same type connections together, molex on two cables, sata on one. Three molex on each of it's leads and four satas on that lead so I still had to use all of them and hide the extra. That's probably just a symptom of poor design.
I don't see a bad side to it except the leads, my power requirements may not be enough to cause a failure point with the secondary connectors.

In this case then, its just about as good/bad as a regular non-modular PSU.

Even overclocking the quad to 3.2 GHz I still had stability but overall heat output was not worth a gain that I would never see. Cryengine 2 games are more limited on my machine by the video card then CPU and those are the only ones that would benefit. Everything else has no problem with 2.4 GHz except encoding and the like. I hardly ever do an encode on my main rig and my PVR is on all the time so I would rather send it the load instead of my loud obnoxious machine. I need a set of quiet fans or just a new case that takes a bunch of 120mms.
Water, pfft.. hell no.

Personally, I am planning on overclocking my CPU to oh... 3.0GHZ, and then seeing about implementing one of Asus's auto-tune solutions such that it goes between like 2.0 and 3.0ghz dependent on load.
I am going to be using a heatpipe-based, all copper cooler once I am certain that everything works - I have sofar gotten my CPU to 2750mhz(core @ 1.4v) stably, but can't go any higher really with the stock cooler.
I am either going to be using a modified Asus Star Ice which I have, or a Zalman 9700LED which I also have(though can't find).


-RobbieThe1st

[Gamma]

You can't find a Zalman 9700?!
I'm running with a 9500... That things huge, the 9700 is ginormous. I don't think your going to need a new cooler, assuming the fins aren't bent to hell. Hope you have some AC5 too.

[Azlan]

I just found a review with power consumption info on a tri-SLI GTX 280. They were talking about 749W under peak load with TRI-sli GTX 280(I assume from reading the article that this is power taken at the outlet, which, at 80% efficiency would be ~600W from the PSU), and even if not TRI-sli GTX 260 would be less, and I think my AMD quad-core processor is goind to take less if not the same than the Intel used in that review.

The Core2 Extreme x6800 that was used in the review is about an 128 Watts idle and about 179 Watts under load, whereas the Phenom X4 9850 is one of the most power hungry processors I have seen as of late, coming in at 154 Watts idle with Cool'n'Quiet and Speedstep and 232 Watts under load.  Just thought you might want to know.

The 9850 jumps to about 268 Watts at load overclocked to 3.0GHz @ 1.3v.  I can keep it at under 30degrees with my Ultra branded Monsoon II TEC.

[RobbieThe1st]

The Core2 Extreme x6800 that was used in the review is about an 128 Watts idle and about 179 Watts under load, whereas the Phenom X4 9850 is one of the most power hungry processors I have seen as of late, coming in at 154 Watts idle with Cool'n'Quiet and Speedstep and 232 Watts under load.  Just thought you might want to know.

The 9850 jumps to about 268 Watts at load overclocked to 3.0GHz @ 1.3v. 

Um... where did you get these 179/232 watt numbers? According to This at least, it seems to be a 125W processor.
I can certainly see 179/232W at the wall for the whole system however, in fact that might be a bit low, depending on system.
Still... if those numbers were for the same system with only a different motherboard & processor, we may very well be talking an extra 53W of load(~42W @ 80% efficiency / 3.5A extra 12V load).

I can keep it at under 30degrees with my Ultra branded Monsoon II TEC.

That looks like a very nice cooler. I am only hoping/expecting 45C temps loaded with the 9700LED OC'd.

You can't find a Zalman 9700?!
I'm running with a 9500... That things huge, the 9700 is ginormous. I don't think your going to need a new cooler, assuming the fins aren't bent to hell. Hope you have some AC5 too.

Yea, it is pretty big. We bought it perhaps 9 months ago, and I put it in a box until I got this computer(which I expected to get long before)... I just can't find the box. I have narrowed it down to one area, but its still going to take a bunch of sorting to find.

I have a little bit of a tube of AC5 left from previous setups, I sure hope it will be enough. If not, I guess I am going to have to buy some more.


-RobbieThe1st

[Azlan]

Um... where did you get these 179/232 watt numbers? According to This at least, it seems to be a 125W processor.
I can certainly see 179/232W at the wall for the whole system however, in fact that might be a bit low, depending on system.
Still... if those numbers were for the same system with only a different motherboard & processor, we may very well be talking an extra 53W of load(~42W @ 80% efficiency / 3.5A extra 12V load).

Yes, sorry, I did not make that very clear.  It is a total system power consumption based on a stock test system:

Phenom 9850
2 x 1GB Ultra DDDR2-800
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe (AMD 790FX)
PNY GeForce 8800 GTS 320MB
2 x Maxtor MaxLine III 250GB in RAID 0 Mode
AOpen DUW1608 16X DVD+/-R DL
Enermax EG651P-VE-24P 550W EPS12V

I just happened to have this data from an evaluation system received back in March, same with the x6800, though I did not obtain that system's data myself.