$10,000,000,000,000

[Rakala]

Well, the national debt of the US has finally reached ten trillion dollars. http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ 

[Alondro]

This is why I favor imperialism!

If yer in debt to somebody, take over their country!  Then the debt just goes away!   

[Tapewolf]

That's impressively awful.

[Brunhidden]

and almost every penny of it was under the jurisdiction of ronald regan (reganomics, wheeeee), george bush 1, and george bush 2 (blowing stuff up is expensive? nah, lets just throw some more stealth bombers full of caviar at it. that fixes everything)

[rabid_fox]

Stealth caviar sounds awful. Disappointment in your mouth without you knowing anything about it.

That number is too big. I don't understand it.

[Brunhidden]

part of the reason its too big is beaurocracy- for a long time when the government had to buy something for government purposes, like a chair for a DMV and suchlike, there would be an insane ammount of papers being sent back and fourth, signed in triplicate, saved on someones desk for aging, and then eventually arriving at the correct persons desk with the correct signitures. this process just cost enough man hours of salary to inflate the cost dramatically, resulting in the study that found the US government (particularly the military, which has epic paperwork) would pay upwards of thirty dollars for a box of screws or sixty dollars for a toilet seat. now think of how much that costs to buy a few thousand guns, a couple tons of uranium, and a few gunboats


but moreso then that look at the most recent bushes spending habbits- the american government is STILL sinking millions into stealth bombers and planes that are ten times as advanced but we are not allowed to use for fear of others seeing what secret tech we have.... do the terrorists and insurgents have easily bombed factories or military bases? no. we spend millions on black hawk helicopters, the finest anti-tank weapon the world has ever seen.... to the terrorists and insurgents have tanks? maybe one or two, which are probably so full of sand and rust they serve as little more then statues. but at least we can afford to send troops in with full combat armor and armored humvees, right? oddly enough no, that's where they skimped out on, and is shown to be the thing that would actually save lives....


yes, tax cuts to the rich, reward american business for slashing jobs and sending them oversees so that the american worker only works at walmart, flush the taxpayers money down on wars when social security and medicare die..........yeah, great job ruling what USED  to be the most powerful country in the world

[Alondro]

Actually, Social Security spending already costs over $600 billion annually.  It's one of the biggest single government expenses.  Very likely it has already passed the point of feasibility.  The only way to keep it going will either be to push the retirement age to the low 70's or drastically increase taxes.

Frankly, as a scientists, I'll never retire and die in my lab, forever preserved by the decades of inhaling formaldehyde.

So if Social Security completely fails I could care less.   

[Cogidubnus]

I'm reminded of an adage I heard.

"If you owe a man a hundred dollars, he has power over you. If you owe him a million dollars, you have power over him."

Perhaps not applicable in this circumstance, but the talk of ridiculous amounts of debt brought it to mind.

[Noone]

I think much of the recent rise in debt can be attributed to the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act, which I think comes out to a rough cost of 850 billion, 150 billion of which will go to useless pork barrel spending in it's 450 pages of dense legal bile. Anyways, I suppose the worst that can happen is that it's simply 850 billion down the drain, and at best... it will actually breathe life into the credit market again. Of course, I'm pretty sure that the nation is juggling between two unacceptable extremes and examples of the past, on one hand, there is the great depression mistake of helping the economy too little too late, but there is also the fact that the banks that are being backed up will continue to exhibit policies that would reflect an utter failure of concepts in investment 1.01, much as they did in Japan, (and Switzerland too I think). Fortunately, there are some strings attached to hopefully prevent that from happening, but whether or not they will actually help anything is something I cannot predict.
But who am I kidding? At this point, I'm quite sure that us Americans are going to be in trouble no matter what we do. Personally, I'm certain that continuation of bad foreign policy will harm us more than bad domestic policy, though our recent administration has done an admirable job of epically failing in both regards. One of the government's biggest expenses has been the war, and it would at least START to set things right if it were ended. Throw down another 850 billion, I guess that is minor compared to the rest of the unjustifiable debt that we have, useless wars, bad economic policies, and runaway inflation. I suppose 10 trillion isn't so bad compared to 9.4 trillion, right? 

[Reese Tora]

This is why I favor imperialism!

If yer in debt to somebody, take over their country!  Then the debt just goes away!   

What do you do when you are the country you owe money to?

Anyways, I suppose the worst that can happen is that it's simply 850 billion down the drain, <snip>

The worst that can happen is that this brushes the problem under the rug, props up an economy that's missed it's recessionary period, and we do this dance again in a few years.

[Lady Buggery]

For the love of god that's terrible...I'm moving back to the old world stat *gets on viking warship to Denmark*

[Mao]

I'll just stay up north and pray that the vortex from the sinking ship that is the US economy right now doesn't take mine with it.  Idle hope, I know, but let me have that much.

[Noone]

The worst that can happen is that this brushes the problem under the rug, props up an economy that's missed it's recessionary period, and we do this dance again in a few years.

I would actually say that is a better case scenario than the one I was projecting, because it's entirely possible that the 850 billion dollars spent on trying to revive the economy will fail entirely, banks continue to invest poorly, the toxic securities that the government buys don't turn profitable, the credit market doesn't get revived, and the economic slump continues. The only thing that changes in such a scenario is that the government wasted 700 billion, and 150 went into pork, the debt interest gets higher still, and.... umm... then I bring out my Mayan apocalypse calendar...

[Brunhidden]

For the love of god that's terrible...I'm moving back to the old world stat *gets on viking warship to Denmark*

ive got friends in sweden who say i would love it there, wife and i have decent plans to pack up

[superluser]

For those who have swallowed McCain's ``shrink government'' tripe,



we added $459.5B to the debt in FY 2007 (that's what the graph is for, as well).  Given that we're not going to touch Social Security, Medicare or Defense, and that interest is what we're already paying on the debt, what portion of the remaining $802B can be cut to balance the budget?

[Brunhidden]

perhaps the united states government could figure out how to MAKE money?

[Lysander]

Sadly that's probably impossible.   

[Lady Buggery]

For the love of god that's terrible...I'm moving back to the old world stat *gets on viking warship to Denmark*

ive got friends in sweden who say i would love it there, wife and i have decent plans to pack up

My boyfriend lives in Denmark, homghomg we'd so be neighbors! Kinda by boat/chunnel/plane.

[Jack McSlay]

I woudn't be hoping too much to see the taxes stay the same. other countries with similar quality public services usually have higher taxes than those of USA. A similar crisis to that of 1930 calls for measures about as drastic. higher taxes are likely to happen.

[Dagardo]

Well, the national debt of the US has finally reached ten trillion dollars.

That is too much damn money.

[Brunhidden]

Well, the national debt of the US has finally reached ten trillion dollars.

That is too much damn money.

how much money is ten trillion? its so much money bill gates will say "damn, thats a lot of money"

[Tapewolf]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7660409.stm

[Noone]

Eek, that is worse than I thought! I certainly do not enjoy the idea of a possible 11 trillion dollar debt. I honestly have to wonder who the government keeps borrowing from... I would think investors would stop doing so after the first 5 trillion. Unfortunately, I don't think the number is going to drop without some drastic changes in the government's administrative tendencies.

[Tapewolf]

I honestly have to wonder who the government keeps borrowing from.

China, as I understand it.

[Brunhidden]

I honestly have to wonder who the government keeps borrowing from.

China, as I understand it.

and what happens to china when the debt owed to america cant be paid? i think we JUST saw what happens with subprime lending....

[Tapewolf]

and what happens to china when the debt owed to america cant be paid? i think we JUST saw what happens with subprime lending....

If I were you, I'd be more worried about what happens to the US when China owns it lock, stock and barrel.

[Noone]

There actually are a few possibilities:
1: China keeps getting a steady flux of income from the debt interest. Actually, this may be a valid reason for investing more now that I think about it. If they assume that America won't default on their debt (and it is a BAD BAD thing for governments to collapse like that), they have an easy source of steady income in this fashion, and the more that is invested, the merrier. And yes, it is far more likely for some average person to declare bankruptcy than it is for a government to do the same, though the thought has been going through my head with alarming frequency.
2: The debt (hopefully after Bush's term, because I can't imagine it dropping before then), starts to drop, America spends about... possibly 12 years paying off the debt, possibly more, possibly less(I'm not a psychic so I can't predict the future). In which case, China, and other investors get their money back, while having made a substantial amount from interest.
3: Bad quirk: the value of the dollar plummets, there is massive inflation, and investors who invested in such a manner would get completely hosed, of course, hyperinflation still leaves the US economy in shambles.

I guess it's that really, weighing the possibility of collapse against the possibility of a steady income. Obviously, the situation doesn't look like it's going to be corrected any time soon, which makes investment all the more risky.

[Tapewolf]

1: China keeps getting a steady flux of income from the debt interest. Actually, this may be a valid reason for investing more now that I think about it. If they assume that America won't default on their debt (and it is a BAD BAD thing for governments to collapse like that), they have an easy source of steady income in this fashion, and the more that is invested, the merrier. And yes, it is far more likely for some average person to declare bankruptcy than it is for a government to do the same, though the thought has been going through my head with alarming frequency.

To put it in context, Iceland looks like it already may be insolvent (*).  When Ireland announced it was guaranteeing all savings about a week ago, its credit rating dropped to a 1-in-4 chance that it may default, which astonished me.
When the UK government's rescue plan was announced yesterday, our rating was listed as 1-in-20.  I'd be very, very interested to know what the US' rating is.


**EDIT**

(*) Fun fact - UK local councils appear to have collectively invested in excess of £500m £600m £700m £842m (1.4 billion dollars) in Icelandic banks which have now failed.  Whoops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7660438.stm

[superluser]

I honestly have to wonder who the government keeps borrowing from...

Mainly from itself, strangely.

The majority of Treasury Securities are owned by the US Government, I believe as a method of preparing to fund Social Security.

The majority of the rest is owned by foreign governments.

and what happens to china when the debt owed to america cant be paid? i think we JUST saw what happens with subprime lending....

That's actually a very easy question to answer: The US repudiates the debt.  There will be howling when it happens, but ultimately, no one can force the US to pay, and the rest of the world will just have to suck it.

This is why China (as well as any other country) will not suddenly turn and demand all of the US's debts to be repaid.  They know they'll lose the gambit.

[Noone]

I'd be very, very interested to know what the US' rating is.

Well, according to a wiki article, the US credit rating is 91.27, and is, as of March 2008 the 10th safest country to invest in in the world. Of course, I am quite skeptical of it's accuracy, since if the US is the 10th SAFEST to invest in, I would love to see how unstable investing in another country would be. Actually, maybe looking at such a thing might make my eyes explode, so maybe not.

This is why China (as well as any other country) will not suddenly turn and demand all of the US's debts to be repaid.  They know they'll lose the gambit.

But if that is the case, why do they continue to invest in the US deficit? If it's continually rising, and it is as of this post, 10.23 trillion, why would they continue their bad investment instead of just cutting their losses? I suppose an extremely unrealistic gauge of the situation could lead to continued bad investment, or a possibly realistic hope that the U.S. will shape up, or perhaps for some other reason which could have to do with the United States handling on foreign policy. (maybe China wants us to continue the war in Iraq, but I have no idea if that's true or not.) There has to be some reason they continue investing, even if it's not a logical reason. 

That's actually a very easy question to answer: The US repudiates the debt.  There will be howling when it happens, but ultimately, no one can force the US to pay, and the rest of the world will just have to suck it.

That very well might happen, and I'm afraid of the repercussions of such a stunt to be honest. Bush has already gotten many countries angry with continued violations of international law. This is a very good example of such a stunt that got Canada very upset with the US, and I'm sure I can dig up plenty more examples of horrid misconduct by the US government. Repudiating the debt might just trigger an explosion of the worst kind.