Atheism is a religion

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

The true test of a person character is how they act when the lights have gone out.

Like an animal.

Er. Uh. *shifty look* Er... Look! It's the Goodyear Blimp! *skips out while everyone else is looking the wrong way*

[Mao]

The true test of a person character is how they act when the lights have gone out.

Like an animal.

Hmm.. why does the song 'Closer' by Nine Inch Nails suddenly come to mind?

[Alondro]

The true test of a person character is how they act when the lights have gone out.

Like an animal.

Yay!  Furries!   

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Hmm.. why does the song 'Closer' by Nine Inch Nails suddenly come to mind?

The Mario version?

[rabid_fox]

There'll always be someone to tell the dying man to stop praying and there'll always be someone to tell the dying man to start praying.

He dies anyway.

[Vidar]

There'll always be someone to tell the dying man to stop praying and there'll always be someone to tell the dying man to start praying.

He dies anyway.

I would never tell someone to stop praying, lest they do it in my house, or specifically at me.

[Alondro]

There'll always be someone to tell the dying man to stop praying and there'll always be someone to tell the dying man to start praying.

He dies anyway.

I would never tell someone to stop praying, lest they do it in my house, or specifically at me.

*prays for Vidar*   

[rabid_fox]

There'll always be someone to tell the dying man to stop praying and there'll always be someone to tell the dying man to start praying.

He dies anyway.

I would never tell someone to stop praying, lest they do it in my house, or specifically at me.

*prays for Vidar*   

*prays AT Vidar*

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

*prays for Vidar*   

*prays AT Vidar*

"Oh glorious Vidar, whose metric capacity we are not worthy to calculate, whose sublime intelligence is so far above our own that we poor benighted souls must merely stand in awe, whose feet we are not sufficient to clean with our dirty, dirty tongues, hear us in our hour of need..."

[Jairus]

*prays for Vidar*   

*prays AT Vidar*

"Oh glorious Vidar, whose metric capacity we are not worthy to calculate, whose sublime intelligence is so far above our own that we poor benighted souls must merely stand in awe, whose feet we are not sufficient to clean with our dirty, dirty tongues, hear us in our hour of need..."

"... can you tell us the name for the section between the triglyphs on a classic Greek Doric temple frieze?"

And then Vidar's booming voice emerged from heaven: "Oh, don't grovel! If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people groveling. And don't apologize! Every time I try to talk to someone, it's "I'm sorry" this, and "forgive me" that, and "I'm not worthy"!"

... Sorry, couldn't resist a Monty Python joke. The answer is "metope."

[Vidar]

*prays for Vidar*   

*prays AT Vidar*

"Oh glorious Vidar, whose metric capacity we are not worthy to calculate, whose sublime intelligence is so far above our own that we poor benighted souls must merely stand in awe, whose feet we are not sufficient to clean with our dirty, dirty tongues, hear us in our hour of need..."

Oh, please shut up. You're making me blush, even though all of it is true. 

Also, that would be praying to me, rather than at me.
What I mean with people praying at me is more something like some nutter screaming "In Jesus Name, I Pray! You will go to Hell, in Jesus name I Pray!!" etc. For a perfect example of this, go to youtube and search for "god warrior".
I hate that.
Fortunately, I'm not confrontational enough to attract such idiots.

"… can you tell us the name for the section between the triglyphs on a classic Greek Doric temple frieze?"

And then Vidar's booming voice emerged from heaven: "Oh, don't grovel! If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people groveling. And don't apologize! Every time I try to talk to someone, it's "I'm sorry" this, and "forgive me" that, and "I'm not worthy"!"

… Sorry, couldn't resist a Monty Python joke. The answer is "metope."

Monty Python rules.
* hums "Always look on the bright side of life"* 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Also, that would be praying to me, rather than at me.

Correct. Alondro prays for you, rabid_fox prays at you, and I pray to you. I thought it was fairly obvious...

[Vidar]

Also, that would be praying to me, rather than at me.

Correct. Alondro prays for you, rabid_fox prays at you, and I pray to you. I thought it was fairly obvious...

In retrospect it was. Please continue, so I can tell you to stop doing that. 

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

In retrospect it was. Please continue, so I can tell you to stop doing that. 

"Oh, great Vidar, whose matrices I am unworthy to calculate, and yet whose operating parameters I will, eventually, design, whose shiny blinken forehead light is just so shiny, who can operating in conditions of deepest darkness thereby, who  wears his pyjamas inside out and nobody will argue with him about it, whose eyes watch the moogle, whose dance routine exceeds that of the Riverdance crew combined, whose IQ is immeasurably positive, if barely so, and whose red wings flutter most graciously, look down upon your servant and grant us our wish, which is...


... which is....


... Nuts. Now I've forgotten what it was I was wanting."

[Tapewolf]

"... Nuts. Now I've forgotten what it was I was wanting."

Dead things?  Extra teeth?

[Rakala]

Has anybody heard of this new religion that's the opposite of agnosticism? Instead of not believing in things that can't be proven, they believe in all things that can't be disproven. They devote a different day of the year to each religion. It's a really weird concept.

[Vidar]

Has anybody heard of this new religion that's the opposite of agnosticism? Instead of not believing in things that can't be proven, they believe in all things that can't be disproven. They devote a different day of the year to each religion. It's a really weird concept.

Ehrm, you do realise that thise video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqJpZOljjG8 is satire, right?

[Brunhidden]

that is criminal abuse of cryptology

[Rakala]

Surprisingly that is not the source I got it from.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

I just realized If you don't believe in God, where do you put my faith in?  Science, Men, or nothing.  It would made it hard not to get up, when one is alone in desperate times.

PBH

[rabid_fox]

Last night, I had sex with your religion.

[Jairus]

Last night, my karma ran over your dogma.

[Prof B Hunnydew]

That's just Bad karma

Good Karma

[Prof B Hunnydew]

anthropic theory

When we analyze the constants of natural forces(atomic forces, and gravity, etc.), we find that they are "tuned" very precisely to allow for life.  If the nuclear forces is increase, stars would burn out too fast to give rise to life. or decrease the strength and then stars will not ignite at all.  If gravity is increased, then universe heads to the big crunch quickly.  Gravity decreased the universe expands rapidly to a big dark end.  In fact, there are scores of "accident" involving the cantants of nature that allow life.  Many parameters are all "fine-tuned" to allow for life. So either, we left with the conclusion that there is a God of some sort who has chosen our universe to just right to allow life, or there is billion of parallel universies,(multi-verse), many many of them dead.  As Free Dyson has siad "The universe seemed to know we were coming."

The Anthropic Principle, the weak version simply states that our universe is fine-tuned to support life (because we are here in the first place).  The strong version states that our existence wa by -produce of design or propose.

PBH

[Reese Tora]

anthropic theory

When we analyze the constants of natural forces(atomic forces, and gravity, etc.), we find that they are "tuned" very precisely to allow for life.  If the nuclear forces is increase, stars would burn out too fast to give rise to life. or decrease the strength and then stars will not ignite at all.  If gravity is increased, then universe heads to the big crunch quickly.  Gravity decreased the universe expands rapidly to a big dark end.  In fact, there are scores of "accident" involving the cantants of nature that allow life.  Many parameters are all "fine-tuned" to allow for life. So either, we left with the conclusion that there is a God of some sort who has chosen our universe to just right to allow life, or there is billion of parallel universies,(multi-verse), many many of them dead.  As Free Dyson has siad "The universe seemed to know we were coming."

The Anthropic Principle, the weak version simply states that our universe is fine-tuned to support life (because we are here in the first place).  The strong version states that our existence wa by -produce of design or propose.

PBH

Of course the problem with the anthropic principle is that... there is actually quite a lot of wiggle room for parameters where life in some form could exist.

Also, while the parameters may be perfect for life as it exists NOW, that is because life evolved in that environment, if the parameters were different, that only means that we would not have life as we know it, not necessarily no life.

It's like assuming that a race track was made specifically for a car when that car was really made with performance characteristics that are meant to allow it to perfectly dominate the track.  If you have a differnt track, you get a different car (the difference between NASCAR and the Baja 1000 makes a pretty good example)(yes, the car is designed, but the same example can be made for many species that are evolved to fit a niche outside of which they can no longer survive, the niche is not designed for them, their environment shaped them to fit itself)

This does not preclude a designer who could have designed everything, but there's still no reason to assume there is.

[Faerie Alex]

If you look at the history of race cars, you can see that they actually have "evolved." For instance, from the early Formula 1 cars like this to modern cars like this one. Yes, as you say, there is a designer, but it follows the same basic principles: good qualities are kept, bad ones aren't, new ones are tried, repeat.

[Reese Tora]

If you look at the history of race cars, you can see that they actually have "evolved." For instance, from the early Formula 1 cars like this to modern cars like this one. Yes, as you say, there is a designer, but it follows the same basic principles: good qualities are kept, bad ones aren't, new ones are tried, repeat.

Yeah, but you'll never get the deep creationists to acknowledge the 'evolution' of design that these kinds of things go through.
(then again, you can't even get them to acknowledge that they have no clue how to apply the second law of thermodynamics, either...)

[Yugo]

Closed systems, baby. And the only truly closed system is the universe itself.

[Cvstos]

Creationists always try to use the second law,
to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw.
The second law is quite precise about where it applies,
only in a closed system must the entropy count rise.
The earth's not a closed system' it's powered by the sun,
so [censored...]
That, in a nutshell, is what entropy's about,
you're now down with a discount. -MC Hawking

[Vidar]

I just realized If you don't believe in God, where do you put my faith in?  Science, Men, or nothing.  It would made it hard not to get up, when one is alone in desperate times.

PBH

This might end up initiating a discussion over the virtue of faith.
I can't speak for other atheists, but I have some faith in science, because it works. It's not perfect, mistakes are made, and sometimes it's outright wrong about something, however, science has shown us more about the universe than any religion has revealed.
I don't have absolute faith in science, and I consider everything it says critically, in so far as I can. Even scientists don't have absolute faith in their own scientific theories. For instance, right now, there is a sattelite orbiting the earth, called "Gravity Probe B" which has the purpose of finding things in gravity that are not explained by current scientific theories. They actively try to disprove their own theories, and in doing so, improve them.

To me, faith is an obstacle, and not a virtue. Some people might get some comfort out of faith, but far too often it is used as an excuse to stop thinking critically, and simply go for the answer "goddidit". I'm opposed to this answer, not just because I don't believe it, or because of my 'lack of faith', but mainly because it doesn't explain anything.

anthropic theory

There's an article on the front page of slashdot right now, that suggests that the anthropic principle has been rendered shaky at best. The margins for a workable universe are apparently a lot broader than supposed by the anthropic principle. Of course, this is all hypothetical, because we can't observe other universes at the moment.

On creationist arguments: I've heard a number of them (2nd law of thermodynamics, irriducable complexity, various probability arguments, using the bible as the absolute truth), and they're all easily debunked as nonsense. The 2nd law of thermodynamics applies only to closed systems, and the earth isn't a closed system, and even in a closed system there may be pockets where entropy decreases, like in stellar formation.

There is a long (over an hour, iirc) youtube video of Ken Miller, one of the scientists who testified against the Dover board in the court case "Kitzmiller vs Dover", in which he explains in detail why Intelligent Design is bunk. He also explains what irriducable complexity is, and why it doesn't work, with the creationist favourite, the bacterial flagellum, as his example of why it is false.
I suggest that everyone who has an interest in science clears some time for this, because it really is worth seeing.