[comic] Gabriel, pg.6 [02-08-'10]

[Kipiru]

I simply love the shading in the top right panel- really nice.

[!KCA]

What does a regenerating shapeshifter need a glass eye for?

[Tapewolf]

What does a regenerating shapeshifter need a glass eye for?

I don't think (s)he does.  IMHO it was Turnsky's way of describing an artistic glitch in panel 3 of page 32.
I can sympathise - getting eyes to look right is a major PITA for me.

[Alteisentier]

What does a regenerating shapeshifter need a glass eye for?

I don't think (s)he does.  IMHO it was Turnsky's way of describing an artistic glitch in panel 3 of page 32.
I can sympathise - getting eyes to look right is a major PITA for me.

I think it's more of a break down than a glitch

[Turnsky]

What does a regenerating shapeshifter need a glass eye for?

I don't think (s)he does.  IMHO it was Turnsky's way of describing an artistic glitch in panel 3 of page 32.
I can sympathise - getting eyes to look right is a major PITA for me.

i can't, truth be told, it screams impatience to me, sure i've inadvertently done a "crosseyes" before in the past, but not like "Mr Chameleon" there =p

Honestly? Whitefox missed it in sketch, ink, and color.. that's impatience.  
also, in the latest?.. note how he missed shading the very first panel.. it's easy to see whitefox is rushing to get these out. quality over quantity is the name of the game, here.. take the time to work on these properly, Whitefox, you'll benefit in the long run if you do.

[WhiteFox]

What does a regenerating shapeshifter need a glass eye for?

I don't think (s)he does.  IMHO it was Turnsky's way of describing an artistic glitch in panel 3 of page 32.
I can sympathise - getting eyes to look right is a major PITA for me.

i can't, truth be told, it screams impatience to me, sure i've inadvertently done a "crosseyes" before in the past, but not like "Mr Chameleon" there =p

Honestly? Whitefox missed it in sketch, ink, and color.. that's impatience.  
also, in the latest?.. note how he missed shading the very first panel.. it's easy to see whitefox is rushing to get these out. quality over quantity is the name of the game, here.. take the time to work on these properly, Whitefox, you'll benefit in the long run if you do.

I would like to note one or two things. Shading is usually the stage where I"m pinching the bridge of my nose, gritting my teeth in frustration, the comic is overdue and I want to post the damn thing and be done with it. So, yeah, it's usually the first thing to get rushed. At the same time, I"m kind of attached to sticking to a schedule. That's very important to me, and I think a major part of being professional about comics. Still... you're right. I'm going to cut back to posting once a week instead of twice, unless by some miracle I produce enough to get a backlog of strips.

However... The "glass eye" was deliberate. Pg. 32, panel 3, was specifically meant to clearly show that. It looks off in panel 4 because in my original page concept both eyes were going to be visible, one of which was supposed to be "off". Instead, only one eye is visible from the angle I drew it at, and by itself it looks funny.  It's actually a major plot point, and a significant element to Felix's character.

I am not very good with inking, either. Really. I'm using Micron Pens instead of steel tip ones, and they're very different. Easier, yeah, but I don't like the results as much. As well, ay hands get shakey halfway through a page sometimes, and even under the best of conditions, well, I'm a very sketchy artist in general. Plus, as a diabetic, I get arthritis sometimes if I don't take care of myself.

So, Tape is right. I am being pretty impatient. I need to put more effort into the inks, and my shading is downright sloppy. But I just want it to be known, for the sake of those following the story, that the eye was not a mistake.

Turnsky, thank you for your comments. I really mean that, this kind of feedback is important to me.

[Alteisentier]

looks more like a human tf sequence, but still good.

Uh, sorry, but... I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain?

Well.. It goes a something like this..

[Turnsky]

I'm using Micron Pens instead of steel tip ones, and they're very different. Easier, yeah, but I don't like the results as much. As well, ay hands get shakey halfway through a page sometimes, and even under the best of conditions, well, I'm a very sketchy artist in general. Plus, as a diabetic, I get arthritis sometimes if I don't take care of myself.

it is a poor tradesman that blames his tools, i have a benign tremor in my hands (i.e, my hands shake a little even if i'm trying to hold them still) and whenever i've done standard inking, i've used felt tips like the microns, for years, even.

Steel tip technical pens will not improve how you draw, AT ALL. I've heard this excuse used for acquisition of a tablet, you just need to work out decent line control, that's all.. Patience is key, as i've said before, you don't wanna turn out like that git who draws 'antihero for hire', right?

[WhiteFox]

I'm not blaming my tools. I'm flat out saying I'm not very good with them. I suck. At inks.

I find the microns easier to use because there's less fuss. You don't have to keep them clean, you don't have to reload-and-dab (Or the alternative load from a brush) them constantly. But I find that you have to keep a minimum amount of pressure or they wont flow at all, and I usually end up holdingh them with a white knuckled vice grip. It's a habit I'm finding very hard to break. Also, I hate having to switch between three different pens. (A .45mm, a .1mm, and a 1mm for panels)

I like the steel tip pens because I can get a better control over the line weight depending on how much pressure you use. You can get sharp, tapering lines that are great for things like hair, or muscle definition. Not to mention, they're cheaper. I bought a bottle of india ink two years ago, and it hasn't run out yet. For the same price, I could have gotten two microns. New nibs are 1.60 apiece, while microns are 3.50 each (Canadian).

My dificulties in inking, however, don't change depending on the tools. Either way, I have times where I have to redraw lines three times, which get taken out in digital. Fine details get screwed up a lot, and I'm never sure what to ink and what not to. Like, hair. I can never decide between just defining the locks in ink, or going all out and shading the strands. Or muscle definition. I can't seem to pick between shadows or hard lines in a lot of cases. As you say, though, it's all a matter of patience and practice. And I'm working on it.

I've chatted with Mark Shallow over IM. It takes him two hours to do a page, start to finish. I definitely have more time to spend on my comics then that.

[WhiteFox]

Lessons learned.

Turnsky, I have to apologize. I'm running my mouth off, explaining my faults, and I sound like I'm making excuses, defending myself, and arguing, when all I need to say is "You're right, thank you."

So... you're right. Thank you.

Alteseintier, your advice is very useful to me. However, I'd appreciate it if you left out the "lol" comments. They really aren't necessary.

So.

DSOF #33, redux.
The previous version is still online, here.

-Shaded panel one.
-Adjusted the size of Felix's eye in panel two. And, yes, he has a pretty large eye.
-As far as I can make out, the thumbs shouldn't be visible from that angle in panel 1 and 2.
-Panel 4 has much stronger shadows now. The only part of the room that's lit is the desk itself. There shouldn't be any shadows cast from the arms of the couch since the whole couch is in shadow.
-Added content to all the papers visible, and adjusted the placement in panel 4 to make it more consistent. The large one on the ground is a map, hence all the crease marks.
-Added something to panel 4 to avoid an even bigger continuity break.
-Fixed the lighting on Felix in the last two panels: it's coming from directly above and a bit in front of him. (Pot lights in the ceiling.)

I could make more improvements, but not without spending more time on the page then I'd like to. Especially when I'd like to get started on #34. The shadows in panel 5 and 6 are hard edged, and there's a few other tweaks that would be much easier to fix on paper.

BTW: Thanks for the "Ikea lol" comment, Alte. Theo's a college student after all, and I wanted his room to reflect that (E.G., Page 4). The couch is the same one as in page 9, just better drawn. No, the armrests aren't straight. There's no back to the couch to make room for wings.

[Turnsky]

i'll just answer this one, you've made some good points here. Enough for the "fair 'nuff" box, anywho.

I'm not blaming my tools. I'm flat out saying I'm not very good with them. I suck. At inks.

I find the microns easier to use because there's less fuss. You don't have to keep them clean, you don't have to reload-and-dab (Or the alternative load from a brush) them constantly. But I find that you have to keep a minimum amount of pressure or they wont flow at all, and I usually end up holdingh them with a white knuckled vice grip. It's a habit I'm finding very hard to break. Also, I hate having to switch between three different pens. (A .45mm, a .1mm, and a 1mm for panels)

it just seemed a cop-out when you took what you said at face value 'tis all. Either way, microns are relatively pressure sensitive too (those nibs do flex) you can get some real nice effects out of them, some folks might say "get a brush pen", i'd say "don't" brush pens are a pain, and they fray oh so freaking easily.
You just need to work on your linework, 'tis all.. try taking some time out from getting a comic out, and see what happens when you lavish some attention to the lines, you'll find the more you do that, the faster one gets.

I like the steel tip pens because I can get a better control over the line weight depending on how much pressure you use. You can get sharp, tapering lines that are great for things like hair, or muscle definition. Not to mention, they're cheaper. I bought a bottle of india ink two years ago, and it hasn't run out yet. For the same price, I could have gotten two microns. New nibs are 1.60 apiece, while microns are 3.50 each (Canadian).

Can't argue with you there, them little beasties are expensive.

My dificulties in inking, however, don't change depending on the tools. Either way, I have times where I have to redraw lines three times, which get taken out in digital. Fine details get screwed up a lot, and I'm never sure what to ink and what not to. Like, hair. I can never decide between just defining the locks in ink, or going all out and shading the strands. Or muscle definition. I can't seem to pick between shadows or hard lines in a lot of cases. As you say, though, it's all a matter of patience and practice. And I'm working on it.

and that's the main thing, as for hair, defining the locks in ink is better since you can mess around with definition of hair body when it comes to the color/shading stage.

I've chatted with Mark Shallow over IM. It takes him two hours to do a page, start to finish. I definitely have more time to spend on my comics then that.

ye god, i knew he just crapped them out, but dayum..

also, word to the wise: Thick pen for characters/foreground, thin for distant/background.. you don't wanna make the same mistake i did down the road:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/ffc20071022wip.jpg

varying line width depending on what you're drawing helps, as seen here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/ffc20080811wip.jpg foreground/background elements clearly discernible from eachother.

also: Avoid drawing forests at any given opportunity, they're murder on the hand 

[Tapewolf]

also: Avoid drawing forests at any given opportunity, they're murder on the hand 

I'm planning a 12-page arc set in a forest.  Since the backgrounds on mine are mainly done 'in post' as it were, my plan is to assemble a set of 6-10 basic trees and build up the background that way.  It's an experiment which I still need to try - if it sucks I'll have to rethink it.

I've probably asked this before, but Whitefox, out of interest, how long does the colouring stage take on DSOF?

[Turnsky]

also: Avoid drawing forests at any given opportunity, they're murder on the hand 

I'm planning a 12-page arc set in a forest.  Since the backgrounds on mine are mainly done 'in post' as it were, my plan is to assemble a set of 6-10 basic trees and build up the background that way.  It's an experiment which I still need to try - if it sucks I'll have to rethink it.

I've probably asked this before, but Whitefox, out of interest, how long does the colouring stage take on DSOF?

Treees 

[Tapewolf]

Treees 

So, you replicated them and tweaked them?

The effect I'm aiming for is something like this:
http://missmab.com/Comics/Abel_43.php

...because my own tree designs all suck and Amber's were easy to reverse-engineer.

[Turnsky]

Treees 

So, you replicated them and tweaked them?

The effect I'm aiming for is something like this:
http://missmab.com/Comics/Abel_43.php

...because my own tree designs all suck and Amber's were easy to reverse-engineer.

oh no.
i hand inked & shaded every single one of those trees.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/ffc20070706wip2.jpg

well, as hand-inked as a wacom tablet can get.

[Tapewolf]

oh no.
i hand inked & shaded every single one of those trees.

Ah, I wasn't entirely sure.  I was going to say, "If they're replicated you did a great job of altering them".  In the shading I can see a lot of similar patterns, but I guess that's because they're the same kind of shape 

EDIT:

One glitch with yours is that it seems to have both a full covering in the treetops and grass.  That doesn't usually happen unless you're in some kind of clearing, which doesn't seem to be the case.  Though of course the flora might be different on that world.

Might be a bit early in the year, but I should probably head up the mountain and study the forest floor again.

EDIT EDIT:
Maybe we should give WF his topic back too 

[WhiteFox]

EDIT EDIT:
Maybe we should give WF his topic back too 

Are you kidding? This is all gold. I wish I had conversations like this all week long.

I've probably asked this before, but Whitefox, out of interest, how long does the colouring stage take on DSOF?

The process goes like this:
-Block color fill. Magic Wand every shape on the page that's the same color, and Fill. This takes about ten minutes at most.
-Shading/highlighting. Usually with a large brush to paint in large areas swiftly, and a small brush to do details like facial shadows. I use the lasoo tool when I need a clean edge, like eye highlights. This stage can go very quickly too, unless I'm pushing the quality. A page can take from half an hour to 4 hours.
-SFX. Especially fire, which involves laying down color and blending it with the smudge tool. Most of this is similar to the shading/highlighting. This can take anywhere from 10 mins to an hour, depending on how good I want it to look and how much practice I have doing it. I usually like to take as much time as I need to make the fx look good.

If I'm not too fussy and not pushing myself, I can get the whole thing done in about 1hr, 20 mins.

Trying new techniques, however, can add four or five hours of work. Sometimes I have to abandon the attempt, and cop out, like the magic effects in Page 21, panels 3 and 4. Sometimes the outcome isn't ideal, like when I tried a new way to line and color Aliannara's knotwork, in Page 29, panel 4.

I've chatted with Mark Shallow over IM. It takes him two hours to do a page, start to finish. I definitely have more time to spend on my comics then that.

ye god, i knew he just crapped them out, but dayum..

Bearing in mind, that was when he was drawing Adventurers! It might be different now, but I'm inclined to think he's just more familiar with his tools now, rather then taking more time.

I do like AFH and Adv! (I RP'd on the Adv! boards for a while) for some things. The writing, story, and characters are pretty good, and I'm willing let art quality slide (Good story can make up for bad art, but good art can't make up for bad story).

In the end, I don't have a problem with people who take it easy. But anything worth doing is worth doing well, and the only way to learn is to push yourself. Anything less is complacency.

also, word to the wise: Thick pen for characters/foreground, thin for distant/background.. you don't wanna make the same mistake i did down the road:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/ffc20071022wip.jpg

varying line width depending on what you're drawing helps, as seen here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v625/Turnsky/Sketches/ffc20080811wip.jpg foreground/background elements clearly discernible from eachother.

also: Avoid drawing forests at any given opportunity, they're murder on the hand 

Actually, Theo's next lair is taking place in a forrest. I'm doomed.

Line weight is very significant for readability and depth cuing. Readability being how easy it is for some one to tell what's on the page (EG: This page having poor readability), and depth cuing being anything that tells the viewer how far away something is.

I pay more attention to saturation to do both. If the BG colors are desaturated, it looks farther away and the characters stand out more. As it is, I use light lines for details and heavy lines for outlines. I should start using lighter lines for B.G.s too.

I know I can sound a bit arrogant when I start getting into technical stuff about art... Both my parents are artists, and I grew up with all this. Still... just because I know about it doesn't mean I can do it. Which is why I'm better at critiquing art then making it.

(By the way, I find the word "critique" is misunderstood. People usually think a critiques are harsh, but really they're just very, very, impartial. And technical. And thorough. Which is why, these days, I send a PM to people before I post comments.)



I did a whole bunch of knotwork to practice with inks. I'm probably going to make them part of my warm-up exercises from now on. As a note, an "interlacing" is anywhere one path crosses over another. Also, I use "path" to describe the knot's path to avoid confusion between the lines of the knot, and the ink line itself.

A lot of these are a little messed up because I didn't want to spend too much time on the layout stages of drawing the knot. These are done as an exercises in inking, after all.

Quatrefoil
.01 Micron Pen. Actual size: 2.5 cm square.
This one is kind of messed up. Two or three spots where I had to go back over the line.

Circular panel
.50 Micron Pen. Actual size: 5 cm square.
This one is really messed up. One spot where I goofed up on the interlacing, and many places where I didn't take enough time with the previous stages (spots where I've circled the entire interlacing). The lowest circled interlace looks bent: that's because I goofed on the previous stage. There're many places where I got sloppy with the inking, especially where the path that goes under another path gets drawn over the lines (the spots where I've circled only part of the interlacing). After this one, I started skipping the third step, which at times can give better results.

Trefoil
.01 Micron pen. Actual size: 2.5 cm wide.
I got really careful with the pen this time. The interlacings look much better, but the width of the path varies quite a bit. Consistent path width is very important for a good looking knot.

3 Trefoil Panel
.01 Micron. Actual size: 2.5 cm at the widest.
This one looks really wonky because I rushed the first stage of the knot. I think I did a much better job on the inking this time around, though.

4 Trefoil Panel
Dip pen, 102 Hunt Nib. Actual size: 2.5 cm at widest
Had to get used to dip pens again, I hadn't used them in a while. Quite a few spots where the linen goes wiggley, and a lot of lines got drawn over the interlaces.

2X3 Panels
Left: Dip pen, 102 Hunt Nib. Actual size: 1.8cm x 1cm
Right: .01 Micron. Actual size: 1.5cm x 0.8cm
Side by side comparison. I think the left one came out much better, and the fact that the right one is smaller doesn't make much difference.

I'm going to have to finish the tutorial I was working on for these. They're too much fun.

In the end, I think I like the dip pen much better. It doesn't require much pressure at all to get the ink to flow, and keeping my grip light keeps my lines smoother, gives me better control, and doesn't cramp up my wrist after 3 minutes. I don't mind taking the time cleaning the nibs takes.

Probably the best thing I learned from this is to change the position of my wrist so I can see where the bloody heck the pen is going.

Duh.

Most of the places where lines got over drawn, or I set the pen on the wrong spot was because my thumb was blocking my view.

Anyway, comments and suggestions appreciated. If anyone knows any good exercises or tutorials for improving inking, I'm all ears.

Well, eyes. Since I'm reading this.

You know what I mean.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Your link for the circular panel is wrong - you didn't update it from 01 to 02...

Other than that, I'm watching, but I have no comments...

[Turnsky]

*holy text, batman!*

with tapering lines, it's always cool to have the line thicken the closer it is, and taper as it goes further away, this especially looks good with rounded things, and gives off depth..

as for foxfire, i can spend about 2-5 hours on the sketch alone.. this may be because i also 'script' the comic on the fly, but really, even if i had a script, there are moments where it's just hard to express it properly.. i dedicate a day if need be to the inks, only because in the past I've had compliments on how foxfire can stand on its own based on flat coloring alone, i like to give the inks the attention they deserve..

ideally you'd wanna dedicate at least 3-4 hours for a reasonable page, we all like to get it done quick, but sometimes "patience is a virtue" rings true in most regards.

[WhiteFox]

In total, DSOF takes about 2 hrs for panels and pencils; 1.5 for inks; 40 mins for scanning, panels, header, text, and cleanup, and 2 hours for coloring and shading.

Of course, every minute I rush on the pencils adds two to the inking. Every minute on the inks I shave off adds two to coloring and cleanup. And in the end, everything ends up shoddy.

I'm repeating myself now, tho.

[GabrielsThoughts]

My web-comic can take as much as 5 hours over the course of three days to draw. One hour to ink. and 3-5 hours to color.

On page 32, the only indication that your character had hair was illustrated only in the 4th panel making him appear hairless before trans-morphing or whatever into a harrier gray thing before leaving the room. 

[Turnsky]

In total, DSOF takes about 2 hrs for panels and pencils; 1.5 for inks; 40 mins for scanning, panels, header, text, and cleanup, and 2 hours for coloring and shading.

Of course, every minute I rush on the pencils adds two to the inking. Every minute on the inks I shave off adds two to coloring and cleanup. And in the end, everything ends up shoddy.

I'm repeating myself now, tho.

oooh, i see how you do it now.

you sketch each panel in sequence, with graphite, on separate pages..
you then ink over them, erasing afterwards..
after which you scan, organise them into the one file, cleanup, then color.

[WhiteFox]

oooh, i see how you do it now.

you sketch each panel in sequence, with graphite, on separate pages..
you then ink over them, erasing afterwards..
after which you scan, organise them into the one file, cleanup, then color.

No... it's all on one sheet of paper.

[WhiteFox]

Involuntary hiatus over.
DSOF #34
Considerable delay caused mostly by real life, and trying to get better with Photoshop.

Rather then going into details, I'll just say I wish I'd done everything better and leave it at that.

[techmaster-glitch]

Theo's got some interesting stuff...a marriage picture? That's very interesting...

Also; six more comics and you can apply for your own subforum!

[Tapewolf]

I'm a little confused by the last panel.  Is (s)he photostatting the picture or something?

[WhiteFox]

I'm a little confused by the last panel.  Is (s)he photostatting the picture or something?

Second last panel, Felix is looking despondent and forlorn.
Last panel, he's turning off whatever it was he turned on in the last panel of #33. More on that thingamajig later.

Theo's got some interesting stuff...a marriage picture? That's very interesting...

If you think that's interesting, you must love the comment Felix makes in the last panel.

(If you don't see a comment in the last panel, it's because you're not looking hard enough. 
{bwa ha-ha- ha haa... )

Also; six more comics and you can apply for your own subforum!

Oh, yes. I've had that thought bubbling in the back of my head for a fair while now.

[EDIT] Changed the thread title. D'oh.

[WhiteFox]

New comic. Yay.

DSOF #35: His Remories Recall Him.

I'm proud of the fact that I took the time to polish things a bit, instead of posting on Friday. Course, I'm not too happy about the piles of suck all over everything that I couldn't get rid of. I think the colors really killed me on this one: The Guy in panel 4/5/6 blends in too closely with the background, and Theo's head has always looked off (The entire rest of his body is an entirely different saturation and shade). Also, I seem to have lost any ability to render fire I had (which is a shame, as I really liked the look I got in #22).  I'm halfway ready to give up on doing the line work on paper entirely, but I'm still clinging to that one.

On the other hand, I thought the comic title was pretty clever.

Within the next couple of strips, I'm probably going to work out some character design revisions. Partially because I've learned a few things (EG: the color of Theo's head and Jade's horns make it difficult to make a background that contrasts well with the character) and because I never like the concept that characters appearances never change.

Also, it used to bug me that it seemed like I was jumping back and forth between Jade/Theo and Felix. Then it occurred to me that doing that emphasized that these events were happening simultaneously. I think it helps with the tension, too.

Aside from all that, comments and critiques appreciated. I already know what I have to say about it, I'd kind of appreciate a second opinion.

[Edit] Holy Cannoli, I just saw the comic on my brothers PC. It looks compltely different. Especially the green on the ground in panel one: On my monitor, it's barely visible, and on his it stands out like a sore green thumb. Dammit.

[WhiteFox]

*Glances up* Man, I have to stop posting when I'm tired.

Anyway.

DSOF #36: If you keep doing that, it'll stick like that.

The inking for this page was done entirely in Photoshop. *Sigh* After all that fuss with learning ink...

I love working on paper, I love pencils, and I love ink. I really love ink. But it just so happens that I really suck with ink. So, until I get better with it, I'm going to have to ink in digital. Blarg.

[Tapewolf]

Ah, an inter-clan squabble.