Homosexuality in animals

[techmaster-glitch]

Uhm, what about freedom of speech?

Actually had a project on this recently. Now, there is the freedom of speech. The question is; is there also freedom...of hate speech?

I'm just saying, there is a point when it goes too far. Too much of a good thing and all that.

If someone disagrees with homosexuality, that's fine. It's their own choice what they want to do. When they start carrying crusades and beat on about "all gays go to hell" and that shit, that is where the line must be drawn.

[Rakala]

Freedom is speech is not "Say whatever you want." What freedom of speech does is it protects certain kinds of speech.

[Alondro]

Ah I see.  And who gets to decide what speech is allowed and which isn't?  Some enlightened social elite?  I'm sure they would never choose only to fine those who happened to be against things they favored, while allowing their buddies to rant and rave constantly, and then make excuses for or ignore any violence that does occur.

Freedom to express one's opinion is the very core of the freedom of speech right.  You cannot start restricting the expression of public opinion without undermining the entire social philosophy.

It's amazing people can't see the dangerous precedent something like this sets.  When a government starts imposing fines for nonviolently expressing beliefs, you're not far away from birthing a communist or fascist regime.

[techmaster-glitch]

When a government starts imposing fines for nonviolently expressing beliefs, you're not far away from birthing a communist or fascist regime.

Wait, so Canada's going to become communist/facist?

Oh snap!

See the map, they're hoverin' right over us
Tell you the truth, it makes me kinda nervous

Always hear the same kind of story
Break their nose and they'll just say "sorry"
Tell me what kind of freaks are that polite?
It's gotta mean they're all up to somethin'
So quick, before they see it comin'
Time for a pre-emptive strike!

...I think I'm getting way off the original topic

[Alondro]

When a government starts imposing fines for nonviolently expressing beliefs, you're not far away from birthing a communist or fascist regime.

Wait, so Canada's going to become communist/facist?

Oh snap!

In 1932, who thought Germany would threaten the world?  In 1998, who thought terrorists could destroy the World Trade Center?  I reiterate what I have said countless times, learn REAL history, learn how quickly democracies can disintegrate, and how little it takes for freedoms to be snatched away.  When the masses are weak-willed, it only takes the proper charisma and trickery to lead them whichever way one wishes. 

Once a precedent is set, everyone who's been waiting for the right opportunity will pounce upon it.  Just look at the loopholes that are exploited to get criminals off the hook.  Those things never worked long ago, until one single case succeeded and set the precedent.  Common sense goes right out the window.  No one ever questions whether perhaps a mistake was made in the judgement.  The legal precedent is all that matters.  And each time is one step closer to edge of the cliff.

[Anepo]

Yes, but animals don't have souls, so it's still only a sin for people to be gaying it up all the livelong day.

HOW can you prove that animals dont have a soul? do they not feel love? do they not feel hate? do they not feel disappointment? id say they had a soul. Every liviing thing imo has a soul. Although it depends on the brain how primitive you are along with your bodys instincts. but the soul could always be there. Just the body has simpler thoughts.

This is why i HATE catholics and others "animals go to hell because they dont have a soul" Oh really? if thats all they go to hell for? Then NOBODY gets into heaven NOBODY!

which is worse? not having a soul or stealing something or perhaps killing something? So its ok to kill animals because they go to hell anyway and we will go to heaven because they dont have a soul?

yea im blowing it all out of proportion but hope you get my point.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Question, Anepo. How do you know animals feel love?

[Valynth]

In 1932, who thought Germany would threaten the world?

Actually, Hitler always said his main goal was to conquer the world, but everyone thought "he was just joking."   The Europeans then decided to just appeased him until he had enough resources to declare war and win against the European powers outright.  The U.S. tried to stay out of European political affairs until we were attacked by the Japanese.

It's one of the reasons we in the U.S. refuse to become isolationists again, nobody else is willing to snip the psychotic dictators in the bud and they will actually rally to the defence of genocidal maniacs if the U.N. is any precedent.

Actually had a project on this recently. Now, there is the freedom of speech. The question is; is there also freedom...of hate speech?

I'm just saying, there is a point when it goes too far. Too much of a good thing and all that.

If someone disagrees with homosexuality, that's fine. It's their own choice what they want to do. When they start carrying crusades and beat on about "all gays go to hell" and that shit, that is where the line must be drawn.

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

That's been the U.S.'s stance on this matter.

[Tapewolf]

Question, Anepo. How do you know animals feel love?

They do feel grief.  If you have a pair of dogs together from puppies, when one of them dies, the other will lapse into depression and IIRC often stops eating.  Dogs support embarrassment as well.

Now there is of course the question of whether they really do feel it or whether they just act as if they do, but that opens up a whole other can of worms, e.g. "How do I know a other humans feel love?"

As for animals not having souls as part of Catholic doctrine, I have no idea where that even came from.  The Bible has at least one reference to doves having souls.  Though it could be a metaphor of course.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Now there is of course the question of whether they really do feel it or whether they just act as if they do, but that opens up a whole other can of worms, e.g. "How do I know a other humans feel love?"

Oh, come on, Tapewolf. How can I trap him with the fun ones if you keep sidestepping them for him? ;-]

[rabid_fox]

Yes, but animals don't have souls, so it's still only a sin for people to be gaying it up all the livelong day.

HOW can you prove that animals dont have a soul? do they not feel love? do they not feel hate? do they not feel disappointment? id say they had a soul. Every liviing thing imo has a soul. Although it depends on the brain how primitive you are along with your bodys instincts. but the soul could always be there. Just the body has simpler thoughts.

This is why i HATE catholics and others "animals go to hell because they dont have a soul" Oh really? if thats all they go to hell for? Then NOBODY gets into heaven NOBODY!

which is worse? not having a soul or stealing something or perhaps killing something? So its ok to kill animals because they go to hell anyway and we will go to heaven because they dont have a soul?

yea im blowing it all out of proportion but hope you get my point.

Hell needs burnt-fur-smell. It's a thing people dislike. Natural process, this whole thing.

[Eibborn]

...If they don't have souls, why do you assume that they go to Hell? Wouldn't it make more sense for a thing with no spirit to not continue in any way after death?

[rabid_fox]

No, no, no, no. They go to hell BECAUSE they have no souls. Anything without a soul gets a free ticket to damnation. Anything WITH a soul can choose where they go.

Damned badgers.

[Alondro]

Nothing has a soul!

The Cubi ate them all already. 

[Vidar]

If animals don't have a soul, then what part of them would go to hell? I thought hell was a place where the souls of those who don't go to the right church got to after they die. 

[Valynth]

If animals don't have a soul, then what part of them would go to hell? I thought hell was a place where the souls of those who don't go to the right church got to after they die. 

Actually most churches simply say "evil people" go to hell, with the rules as to what constitutes "evil" being, for the most part, a universal list comprised more of "crimes against the community" rather than any innate religious doctrine.

Those that accuse certain faiths of "going straight to hell" are typically a very small, ignorant, and vocal minority.

Also, lets remember that not all religions require a "church."  Some have temples or mosques or ziggurats....

[Alondro]

Everyone goes to hell. 

It's called 'Earth'.

[Omega]

A "soul" itself is a abstract thing, and none in here should try to tell others what they think about it. Well, one can always share hir opinion, but not force it to others.. Debating is encouraged, but arguments should be based on facts or evidence. To argue which is better, ice cream or cotton candy is pointless. Fun, perhaps, but without an end.


To the topic of homosexuality. Few generations ago it was considered a disease. Now, it is more of a "way of life". I do not know if anyone can "born" as homo, but it is know that genes might have something to do with it. Siblings, parents and even more distant relatives, homosexuality runs in families. Of course, in these cases the spark might come from action patters. Monkey see, monkey do. After all, that's how human mind works. Perhaps this could be a good reason, why gay couples should not be allowed to adopt children.

I'd like to point out that as I mentioned earlier, gayness was considered a mental illness not too long ago; much like pedophile is today. Don't be so quick to judge those, who cannot accept homos. Can you image a day, when pedophiles will have their own parade?

[Faerie Alex]

Monkey see, monkey do. After all, that's how human mind works. Perhaps this could be a good reason, why gay couples should not be allowed to adopt children.

Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

(sourced here)

I'd like to point out that as I mentioned earlier, gayness was considered a mental illness not too long ago; much like pedophile is today. Don't be so quick to judge those, who cannot accept homos. Can you image a day, when pedophiles will have their own parade?

NAMBLA would certainly have it that way, but I think they've been reduced to a fringe group now. Not that I support them, mind you.

I suppose that some of it comes down to genetic predisposition, but also what the majority of people agree with. For instance, it may well be possible to be genetically predisposed to being a serial killer, and while that doesn't make it right, you could at least try to plead insanity at trial. But if you take say, African-Americans, they're genetically predisposed to being black, and they're a minority, and I believe that the majority of people in this country now agree that segregation is bad. Maybe not the best example, but hopefully you get my point?

[Omega]

Not my theory, really.

I was only talking of possibilities. The chances of turning out to be a gay becomes greater, if statistics are to be believed in, in families that has relatives who are homosexual. That doesn't mean that you are one if your uncle is.

Monkey see, monkey do. After all, that's how human mind works. Perhaps this could be a good reason, why gay couples should not be allowed to adopt children.

Obviously gay parents will raise gay children because straight parents only raise straight children.

(sourced here)

Wait, what?

*groan*
I didn't mean that if the parents are gay, the children will indubitably become gay too, but the risk is probably/definitely higher. Not to mention the lack of certain role model. If the kid turns out to be straight, it might cause the same problem as being a gay in straight family. It all comes down to details. You can't judge gay as a single group. People are different. Some gay people might be fit to be parents, other won't. But the fact remains that the couple cannot fill the missing gender and therefore the child might become alienated from it.

Let me put it this way.
Would you let an anarchist adopt a baby? Or ex junkie? Jehovah's witness? Scientology? None of above are sickness nor anything condamnable, but I doubt that parents are able to raise the children unbiased. Hell, I probably can't, after I'll get a larva or two. But I will try to keep 'em open minded as long as I can. (which itself is one kind of brainwashing)

Not my problem really, but deep down in my heart, I might feel bad for the kid.

[rabid_fox]

Ah, lordy.

Gays, bisexuals and heterosexuals are all useless tossers. Here's the inside scoop - sexuality is entirely passé in the 21st century if you live in the Western World, except as leverage. Nobody cares anymore, unless they've got something else to prove and are using where the penis lands as a pathetic excuse for it.

Sexuality is a NOTHING. Stop making a big deal out of it. Nobody cares.