CN: CTW - War Over - Briefing (upd: 2008-05-21)

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Heya, folks.

Those of you smaller than the bigger countries in the alliance have something to offer.

Apparently, there's this guy who has been screwing up enough that he's been ZI'd and is on numerous people's shitlists.

So. Having annoyed Elysium enough to get nailed once, they've come back under a new name and said "hey, ah, I'm not that other guy, I'm a whole new guy, and I want to start up the alliance totally new with the old name. Honest!"

... his IP has been traced, etc etc.

So. Since Tezket asked me to go talk to Elysium and see if they wanted help, mhawk says we can help!

http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Blitzkrieg

The biggest one in the alliance is ~4k strength.

I'm about 24k. Tez is around 30, last time I checked. So we could do some reasonable damage, here. And since the big guys can stand around passing aid down, we can make a pretty mess. And there's all the other folks in Elysium and the Poseidon Treaty who are happy to carry the can if the shit hits the fan. So...

Any of you folks feel like kicking some righteous butt? ;-]

(the Elysium forum has some further details of the conversation, if you're interested go here...)

[Tezkat]

Hmm... I gotta wait to be masked before I can see the details on their forum. Is this a specific person they want downed?

Only our three smallest guys are currently in range to hit any of them them. Ah well, could be good practice, maybe...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

The entire alliance, as I understand it.

I can copy/paste the entire conversation with mhawk, if you like.

[Tezkat]

Well... I haven't been masked yet over there, so that would help. I'd rather like our first proper declaration of war as an alliance to have a casus belli more solid than "there's this guy who's supposedly another guy our friends don't like"...

(Not that I wouldn't do it anyway, mind you, but it always helps to at least maintain the illusion of moral high ground in war. )

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

This first bit was in the Elysium channel on Coldfront:

19:13  * llearch checks for signs of life
19:14  * ImaNewbie[BAPS] tries to not give a reading
19:14 <+llearch> heh
19:15 <+llearch> We was wondering if some help was wanted against FCO.
19:15 <+llearch> chances are not, but we thought we'd be polite and all, and ask. Having just signed a treaty...
19:16 <~mhawk> howdy

And then in PM:

19:16 <mhawk> we have all our targets anarchied
19:17 <mhawk> so its going pretty well
19:17 <llearch> figured.
19:17 <mhawk> however we do have a target that we are too large to hit
19:17 <mhawk> blitzkrieg
19:17 <llearch> oh?
19:17 <mhawk> http://www.cybernations.net/stats_alliance_stats_custom.asp?Alliance=Blitzkrieg
19:18 <llearch> 3,931.250 (My nation strength is: 24,268.148)
19:18 <llearch> A touch under me.
19:18 <llearch> ;-]
19:19 <mhawk> yeah
19:19 <mhawk> thats the issue we had
19:19 <llearch> I'll ask our smaller countries if they're interested.
19:19 <mhawk> if they want they can hit it
19:19 <mhawk> you are masked as pegasus correct?
19:19 <mhawk> so you can see the CB
19:20 <llearch> should be.
19:20 <mhawk> k
19:20 <llearch> on where? CN forum? or PEACE?
19:20 <mhawk> on the elysium forums
19:20 <llearch> mmkay. Yeah, I should be.
19:21 <llearch> I'll wave it in front of our players.
19:21 <mhawk> ok just updated your masking
19:21 <mhawk> here is the link to the CB
19:21 <mhawk> http://z15.invisionfree.com/CnElysium/index.php?showtopic=399&st=0&#last
19:31 <llearch> mmm.
19:32 <llearch> As I read the Pegasus Treaty, if we attack, we don't get protection. Not that this is likely to be necessary, but I can see some folks getting antsy.
19:33 <llearch> The only exception to this is if we are requested to by the Flag Alliance (running from memory here)
19:34 <mhawk> well this is an opt in thing for you guys
19:34 <llearch> *goes and looks it up*
19:34 <mhawk> we're posting the dow later once we figure out which nations are going in
19:34 <llearch> Hmm. Ok, if you're attacking, we can "opt in".
19:34 <mhawk> you guys dont have to do anything
19:34 <mhawk> yep
19:34 <llearch> "without discussion" is the no-no ;-]
19:34 <mhawk> we're going to hit them tonight or tomorrow
19:34 <mhawk> yep
19:35 <llearch> (hey, we signed it what, last week? Screwing with it this early would be stupid ;-]
19:35 <mhawk> we're just handling the larger war now
19:35 <mhawk> blitzkrieg is a small fry :P
19:35 <llearch> indeed.
19:35 <mhawk> we can always hit them later when we figure out who is going where
19:35 <mhawk> we'll be making a post later tonight
19:35 <mhawk> to coordinate pegasus
19:35 <llearch> My concern is not Blitzkreig, who are larger, numerically than us, although smaller in total output...
19:35 <mhawk> poseidon was notified yesterday
19:36 <llearch> ... it's if they have any friends to bring to the party.
19:36 <mhawk> we got ya covered
19:36 <llearch> neat. I feel much better now. ;-]
19:36 <mhawk> along with 12m in poseidon
19:36 <mhawk> :P
19:36 <mhawk> just check the forum tonight
19:36 <mhawk> there will be a thread for slot sign ups
19:36 <llearch> ... dangit. Our forums are down. :-/
19:36 <mhawk> :P
19:36 <mhawk> hmm
19:36 <mhawk> well check it a bit later and it should be posted
19:36 <llearch> happens every so often. Shared server, takes a kicking from others. Oh, well.
19:36 <mhawk> will be a good little war
19:37 <llearch> yeah.
19:37 <mhawk> thanks for the support btw
19:37 <mhawk> it is appreciated
19:38 <llearch> no worries.
19:38 <llearch> although the fact that BK has grown from 6 to 16 in the last couple of days is... interesting.
20:22 <llearch> I've posted a call to war in our forums. We'll see if anyone responds.
20:22 <llearch> (there are, I think, about 5 people small enough to actually hit these guys, so...)

[James StarRunner]

blitzkrieg alliance, eh? Should I start 'educating' them? Looks like about half of them are pushovers, even for me.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I'll see if there's someone they want us to start with. Sadly, I don't get contact with Elysium in the AM, so we seem to have a day-long cycle between query and response, at best...

Heh.

08:15 <+llearch> mhawk asked if we wanted to slap down Blitzkreig for him. Know if he had anyone in particular in mind to start with?
08:18 <@Agnu|Away> start with the people that have infra, get rid of that infra
08:18 <@Agnu|Away> find new target with infra, rinse repeat

I have an outstanding request for clarification with mhawk, though.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

08:21 <llearch> morning.
08:24 <mhawk> howdy
08:25 <llearch> our newest member said "ooo. Anyone in particular you want me to start with?"
08:25 <llearch> also: Should we officially declare war somewhere, in order to show good will to the rest of Planet Bob?
08:25 <mhawk> ah
08:28 <mhawk> yes we're going to do an official dow
08:28 <mhawk> I'd like to set the attack time for tomorrow
08:28 <mhawk> you guys know how to do an update quad?
08:29 <llearch> Tez has been on the receiving end, yes.
08:30 <llearch> James probably isn't aware, but he's only been playing for a couple weeks, so he's still pickin things up. Easy enough to manage, though.
08:30 <mhawk> ok we'll conduct the attack tomorrow at update
08:30 <mhawk> ok so essentially
08:30 <llearch> I'll pass that on.
08:30 <mhawk> you attack 10 mins before update
08:30 <mhawk> then immediately at update
08:30 <mhawk> to get 4 attacks in, hence a quad
08:30 <llearch> yah.

Think you can manage that, James? Got enough spare cash to buy troops and tanks? (note: tanks you can buy up to 10% of your troop efficiency rating; this is a good number to have on-hand, as they bulk up your attack solidly.)

Perhaps Tez can offer some advice about ground attacks or something... I haven't actually sent more than one, I think, so it's a bit silly me offering suggestions. ;-]

Edit:
Although I'd push your troops up to 60% effective, myself, when going into war. Particularly since their second biggest has twice your numbers of people and troops...

[Tezkat]

My current diplomat mask status on the Elysium forums still won't let me into the thread you linked. I posted a request for them to fix that. I'm still rather eager to read the CB on this one.

08:15 <+llearch> mhawk asked if we wanted to slap down Blitzkreig for him. Know if he had anyone in particular in mind to start with?
08:18 <@Agnu|Away> start with the people that have infra, get rid of that infra
08:18 <@Agnu|Away> find new target with infra, rinse repeat

I believe he means: "ZI the lot of them."

It's actually rather difficult for a single nation to accomplish such a feat at that level. It goes fairly quickly with three, though. (If any of you recall the fun we had with those multis way back when our alliance first started.)

Are Joe and Aiyno still lurking here? They haven't posted in a while...

Einsatz looks like the tastiest target within James's range. Some of the bigger ones have that crazy warmonger look about them. 

Think you can manage that, James? Got enough spare cash to buy troops and tanks? (note: tanks you can buy up to 10% of your troop efficiency rating; this is a good number to have on-hand, as they bulk up your attack solidly.)

Perhaps Tez can offer some advice about ground attacks or something... I haven't actually sent more than one, I think, so it's a bit silly me offering suggestions. ;-]

Edit:
Although I'd push your troops up to 60% effective, myself, when going into war. Particularly since their second biggest has twice your numbers of people and troops...

I've only done a few update quads, myself. A quick look at my offensive casualties will give you an idea of how long ago that was.

I'll put together a war guide to post sometime later today.

Real troops levels should normally go to 79.9% of civilian pop. Max tanks as well. With the introduction of solider efficiency last year, there's no reason to be any lower than that in a war. Heck, I carry almost that much military in peacetime.


I hope James still has a fair bit of cash left on hand. He used up his last aid slot on some kind of "trade misunderstanding", and we won't be able to help him for several days yet. Income often goes down to nothing during wartime. Depending on how much support Elysium and friends can muster, he could take rather heavy damage from the battles. At the very least, he's probably going to have a steady stream of missiles flowing his way.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Dropping some improvements and replacing them with missile defence would be worthwhile, or not?

[Tezkat]

Naw. Not at his size. Besides, look at it this way: CMs don't inflict significant military casualties. They just drop infra, and maybe a bit of tech and a tank or ten. No matter what damage he takes, it will all go away in a few days when one of us drops $3 million on him.

Up in our range, I'd highly recommend buying/swapping for a full set of Guerilla Camps--they're essential equipment in our league of play--but I don't think that will help James much.

I'm more worried about him not having the cash to support several days of war at this time.

[Tezkat]

Sorry. The boot drive of my main PC crashed this morning, so I had more important things to worry than writing that CN war guide I'd planned.

Quick guide:


An update quad is a double assault where you attack both before and after the game update (12AM CST--I believe that's 11PM where you are). Be ready by 15 minutes before the update.



BEFORE THE UPDATE:

Go DEFCON 1. Do this before buying soldiers and tanks, since it reduces the purchase price. Ordinarily, you'd collect taxes first, but you've already done so today.

Buy as many troops as you can afford. Start by maxing out your soldiers. Then buy tanks. I don't know if you'll have enough money for Cruise Missiles. They cost $18k each since you have Lead, and you can fire two per day (up to $72k total).

Pick a target a little over half your size. You can only attack nations within 50%-200% of your own Nation Strength. There are a few enemies within range. I'd recommend only doing one on your first try.

Deploy Troops. The ground strike equation changed significantly last November. I don't know what the new values are. For the time being, assume that 1 tank = 15 soliders, 1 infrastructure = 2 soliders, and that relative combat strength is improved by their ration of tech to your tech. For the smaller ~1.5k NS nations, assume a defensive capability of around 3000 soliders, so aim for a little more than that. Not too much more, since the difference in DEFCON ratios will give you a large efficiency buff. Don't deploy more than half your real soldier count. Make up the difference in tanks (assume 1 tank = 12.5 soldiers when attacking).

Declare War on your target 5-15 minutes before the update. You don't have to indicate a reason. I still don't know what the official casus belli is in this case, since my mask on the Elysium forums hasn't been fixed.

Fire Missiles if you have them.

Perform 2 Ground Strikes. Don't worry if you win or lose. The point here is to destroy as much of his military as possible so that you can anarchy him on the second round after the update.


AFTER THE UPDATE:

Collect taxes. Don't bother paying bills. You'll probably need the cash and can go 2 days without paying bills, which should last you until you have an aid slot open.

Rebuy/redeploy troops. You'll probably need much less force on the second day, but your currently deployed numbers may be too high or too low. Check your current success ratio by opening the ground attack dialog first (but go back rather than attacking if your success rate isn't optimal). You need more than 5% but less than 95% success probability in order perform a ground strike. Obviously, you want to be above 50%, but don't aim too close to the max success percentage, since that might prevent you from doing a second strike.

Fire Missiles again if you have them and perform another two ground strikes.

You should be able to defeat/anarchy your enemy after the quad is complete.

[James StarRunner]

Ya, no more aid can be given for a few days, so should I hold off a a few days? I have $76,303.92 right now, so I could get a few thousand more solders and max my tanks at 150.

[Tezkat]

Um... I was under the impression that this was supposed to be a coordinated multi-alliance strike. So you'll be only one of several nations attacking these guys tonight.

Also remember that your military purchase prices drop a fair bit when you go DEFCON 1. You should have enough for a decent attack. Maybe skip the cruise missiles, though, though I think you might be able to afford a few.

[James StarRunner]

Struck Einsatz, winning both my ground battles. He lost about 30 infra levels or so by my hand.

[Tezkat]

Anarchied him even without a proper quad? Gratz!

Hmm... seems nobody else showed for the party. Makes it look kinda like you tech raided him.

Now I'm quite curious to know how the politics of this will play out. That guy was sitting on 100 tech that he theoretically owed to a Realm of Titans member. Maybe llearch can shed some light on things out when he gets on.


Man... I gotta reinstall Windows. Totally not looking forward to that...

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Heh. James jumped the gun a bit - not to worry, though, we're covered.

09:35 <mhawk> target lists are posted in pegasus
09:36 <llearch> neato.
09:36 <llearch> on the peace forum?
09:37 <mhawk> http://z15.invisionfree.com/CnElysium/index.php?showforum=107
09:37 <llearch> ah.
09:38 <mhawk> under joint mil command we have the CB as well as the initial target lists
09:39 <mhawk> we've recieved poseidon approval to commence operations
09:39 <mhawk> target is set for thursday update
09:39 <llearch> heh.
09:39 <llearch> James jumped the gun a little.
09:39 <mhawk> lol
09:39 <mhawk> its ok
09:39 <mhawk> they might just think its a tech raid
09:39 <llearch> one hopes so.
09:41 <llearch> they're listed as a Realm of Titans protectorate.
09:43 <mhawk> they aren't
09:44 <mhawk> RoT gave them a fake protectorate to gather intel
09:44 <llearch> heh. That's a load off my mind. ;-]
09:44 <mhawk> they turned it over to u
09:44 <mhawk> us
09:44 <mhawk> right now they think we are to busy with FCO
09:44 <mhawk> thats where pegasus will catch them

He also pointed out #pegasus and #elysium on irc.coldfront.net, and noted that you got masked yesterday, Tez.

Edit:
According to the forum listed in there, our targets are:

Do not tell the attackers until 15 min before update on thursday night, so we can insure the safety of this operation. Thank you.
...
2) Defensive Mutually-Friendly Alliance - Blut und Ehre
3,716.523 NS, 939.22 Infra, 129.50 Tech, 0 Nukes, War Mode

3) Defensive Mutually-Friendly Alliance - Perplakistan
3,529.212 NS, 1,081.46 Infra, 12.30 Tech, 0 Nukes, War Mode

You guys happy with that?

[Tezkat]

Oops. Chalk it up to communication error, I suppose. I'm still not properly masked to view their war boards.

I don't personally have a problem with our target list, but we haven't heard from Joe or Aiyno yet. I don't think it would be fair to make the commitment until our attackers are on board. Both of those guys look a bit heavy for James at the moment.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Oops. Chalk it up to communication error, I suppose. I'm still not properly masked to view their war boards.

I suspect that that's "diplomat masking" rather than "random visitor from other alliance" masking, if that makes sense. Since they'd be wanting to keep this fairly close to their chest for the moment - hence "don't tell nobody" note - I suspect that's why you're not in there. And since they've had 4 ringers so far this year alone, I grant them that much allowance.

And you wouldn't be involved in hitting anyone anyway... you're just the most communicative of the other players on here. ;-]

I don't personally have a problem with our target list, but we haven't heard from Joe or Aiyno yet. I don't think it would be fair to make the commitment until our attackers are on board. Both of those guys look a bit heavy for James at the moment.

I've nudged Aiyno. I don't see Joe online at all...

[Tezkat]

I suspect that that's "diplomat masking" rather than "random visitor from other alliance" masking, if that makes sense. Since they'd be wanting to keep this fairly close to their chest for the moment - hence "don't tell nobody" note - I suspect that's why you're not in there. And since they've had 4 ringers so far this year alone, I grant them that much allowance.

And you wouldn't be involved in hitting anyone anyway... you're just the most communicative of the other players on here. ;-]

Hmm... fair enough. I guess I'll have to stay out of the military coordination aspect, then, to avoid a repeat of our last mistake. Makes us look like we don't have our stuff together.

[Suwako]

I am here! Sorry, yeah I fail at forum tracking, anyway.. my economy on CN is just over a infra crisis with 73,004.28 or so money left after bills each day , so aid will be verily much required if we go through with this, I will follow Tezzies guide as much as i can but I hope for great aid in return since 3 days of taxes means a deathlock with tax/bill ratio for me... darned CN 

[Tezkat]

I am here! Sorry, yeah I fail at forum tracking, anyway.. my economy on CN is just over a infra crisis with 73,004.28 or so money left after bills each day , so aid will be verily much required if we go through with this, I will follow Tezzies guide as much as i can but I hope for great aid in return since 3 days of taxes means a deathlock with tax/bill ratio for me... darned CN 

Seriously... taxes at 28%. You're totally gimping your economy otherwise.

Oops. I can't send aid until I pay my bills, which I wasn't planning on doing until tonight's update. Can you wait until then?

Also, will you be available for the strike tomorrow at midnight?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Hmm. What is James up to with Ch3ddar?

[Tezkat]

Dunno. Maybe he got yelled at for cancelling a bad trade and wanted to make up? All his outside foreign aid transactions are certainly hindering our ability to twink his nation.

[Joe3210]

I have to go to work tomorrow at 8:00 am, so I don't think I should attack anybody tonight.  I can send my details to somebody in a pm so somebody else can attack for me.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

In my opinion, that would be... unwise.

Since it'd mean the person who did that could no longer pass you any aid, or fight on your side, or anything else with your country, either. It would hamper things significantly.

Particularly many months down the track when we forgot. ;-]

Edit:
Hmm. The Elysium forum has the likely answer:

To perform this operation successfully there are a few military tactics you need to understand fully. One of them is a Quad.

A Quad - A Quad is an update attack in which you get 4 rounds of attacks on your opponents. The order of attacks should be as follows
- Cruise Missile x2
- Aircraft Attack x2
- Ground Attack x2
Update
- Cruise Missile x2
- Aircraft Attack x2
-Ground Attack x2

If you carry this out successfully, you will most likely anarchy your opponent or, deplete his forces.


A Stagger - A Stagger is enforced to keep the opposing nation out of peace mode;
In order to do this, 2 people declare before update the third person declares after update when the first two wars expire, you have people redeclare. Then another the next day.
Keeps people from sneaking into peace mode when all 3 wars expire at once.

(slightly edited to correct spelling and spacing and suchlike, for ease of reading)

On that basis, I'd say James and Aiyno hit prior to the update, in just less than 31 hours from now, and Joe chimes in after the update, when he next gets back online - that way James and Aiyno take the quad, and Joe takes the stagger.

Work for you three?

[James StarRunner]

Dunno. Maybe he got yelled at for cancelling a bad trade and wanted to make up? All his outside foreign aid transactions are certainly hindering our ability to twink his nation.

Yep, that's pretty much what it was. ;

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

For future reference, James, while we're trying to do the mass tech trade stuff, it'd be an idea ot let the rest of us know before doing that sort of thing; we can pass over the tech for you, because we've got larger aid allowances due to upgrades; 5 for me and Kasarn, 6 for Tez, I think - if he has the wonder for that.

Not that we're complaining, but it makes it hard to pump you up. ;-]

[Tezkat]

On that basis, I'd say James and Aiyno hit prior to the update, in just less than 31 hours from now, and Joe chimes in after the update, when he next gets back online - that way James and Aiyno take the quad, and Joe takes the stagger.

Work for you three?

Okay... I finally got a proper mask on their forums.


I'm gonna dump some moneys on Joe and Aiyno tomorrow. Don't spend too much of it at once, guys, since you're already very close to being too big to hit our targets. On the other hand, it probably is a good idea to spend most of it (probably on infra/improvements/military) after declaring war, since losing a ground strike will inadvertently give the enemy a lot of reconstruction money otherwise.


We only have one real target, since the primary offender (Blut und Ehre) is hiding in hippie mode at will likely remain so after the Blitzkrieg blitz tomorrow night.


Aiyno/Joe... If possible, get on tomorrow night and declare war against Perplakistan for an update quad around 11:50 PM CST on Thursday. Follow the same attack pattern I gave James (though if you have aircraft, use them after your missile strikes). I wouldn't suggest that James join in until after the target's been tenderized a little, since he is still a bit smaller than the guy.


James... since you've done your attacks for today, just ignore any responses or peace offers from Einsatz and attack with everyone else at around 11:50 PM CST on Thursday. Buy a bunch of missiles to use this time, you'll be getting aid soon enough. Once you're done with your quad, declare war on Perplakistan only if Aiyno and/or Joe were able to pull of their attacks on time. He might be soft enough by then to ground strike even at your size, but if not, just lob missiles at him. He's never going to have enough tech to buy more missiles of his own, although he still has 10 left.


Anyone have scheduling conflicts or other concerns?

[Joe3210]

Is that 10:50 Eastern time?

That might just be possible.