Study suggests parallel universes exist

[LionHeart]

Well, by the theory, they must be accurate in some other universe...

[Alondro]

Well, by the theory, they must be accurate in some other universe...

It's circular self-fulfilling reasoning and utterly untestable.  And once more, it's a weak hypothesis, not a true theory.

[Turnsky]

this is something all webcomic artists and authors should know well.

it's been long a theory of mine that if it exists in your own creation, that it might exist somewhere for real, fueling one's muse.

That would be a hypothesis, a supposition as yet untested.  A theory must have evidence to back it up.  And it's both an implausible and untestable hypothesis, as the concept of an entity outside our existance contacting someone's mind violates pretty much every law of everything.   

It's a nice little bit of fiction, but it's about as likely as the Ministry of Magic actually existing. 

can't be proved or disproved, as insufficient evidence exists for either case. truth be told, it's always been a musing of mine, mind you, it does exist in one way, in the author's mind. physical or not, it exists in that fashion.

[bill]

Course, you can just say that since all possibilities may exist, the fact that a paralell universe exists that's exactly like your story/webcomic/epic poem is purely coincidence.

All of this is completely unprovable, of course.

[Tezkat]

Well... not completely unprovable...

Some of the Many Worlds theories may turn out to have predictive validity in real world applications (computing and such). David Deutsch, for one, believes that they will become testable once engineering catches up with the theory. The possiblity of alternate worlds populated by talking furry animals and such would still be a bit of a leap from that point--just not as far.

[Azlan]

I so love armchair supposition!  Here, let me try... it is paramount for the very existence of science and mathematics that the same conditions produce the same results.  Unfortunately, most of you should know that this is not typically the case... or at least I would think that you should as I read these responses.  However, I must put forward that if you truly wish to discuss quantum mechanical problems, it would behoove you to actually understand how to apply quantum mechanics to these problems.


Edit: ugh, my apologies to anyone who I have inadvertently quoted in my jibe.
 

[xHaZxMaTx]

All of existence is just a dream.  Who's dream?  Mine?  Yours?  My dog's? No one knows!

[superluser]

I's say us never being able to measure it is the likely truth.  It's a realm so small, fast, and moving in so many directions that our technology is simply too 'big' and too slow to catch the action.

No, sorry.  A FEU-142 photomultiplier can measure down to a precision of 7E-5 eV (if my calculations are correct).  The picosecond event timer can measure events down to 1.2E-12 seconds.

The error in the FEU-142 times the error in the PET is 8.4E-17 eV*s. The minimum error in the uncertainty principle is 3.3E-16 eV*s.

So we have the precision to measure these things.  That is not the issue.  The issue is that we cannot measure these things.  The precise momentum and position (or time and energy) cannot be communicated to us.  Indeed, we cannot be sure that they even have such attributes.

[Alondro]

That's not my point at all.  We're talking about predictions here.  We don't know what makes particles move the way they do.  THAT'S the key to predicting where they will be in a given instant.  What we perceive as totally random may yet have a predictable factor to it that we'll only discoever when we actually understand the basic structure of matter and energy, as well as figuring out gravity, dark matter, dark energy, vacuum energy, and quite a few other concepts that lie at the very heart of what our universe actually consists of.

We're still lacking a clear understanding of some of the most basic forces in the universe, so it should be no surprise that the particles and energy which scoot along some strange routes carved out by these and other forces at the quantum level do so in a way that is completely unpredictable for us. 

You can't make an equation for it because we don't know all the variables, and likely are still missing some of the fundamental constants. 

And when we do (if ever) know it all, we'll likely also need technology on an entirely different level, just as quantum physics required a whole eschelon of technology beyond general relativity, which required a huge boost beyond Newtonian physics.

[superluser]

That's not my point at all.

OK.  I'm really lost, then.  You kept talking about how our instruments were too big and slow to measure what the particles were doing.  Why would you mention that if your point was...uh, what is your point, exactly?

We're talking about predictions here.  We don't know what makes particles move the way they do.

Actually, we have a pretty good idea about what makes particles move.  Particles give off fields, and if another particle is in that field, it will be attracted or repelled.

General relativity goes further and says that spacetime is just a manifold that is stretched out by these particles and that particles will tend to move toward the bits that are more stretched out.
(I don't know a lot about GR, so I might be off-base, here)

THAT'S the key to predicting where they will be in a given instant.  What we perceive as totally random may yet have a predictable factor to it that we'll only discoever when we actually understand the basic structure of matter and energy

Bell's Theorem says that this is impossible.

[Alondro]

Mmmm-hmm, just like going faster than the speed of sound was impossible until someone found out how to do it. 

I don't lock myself in according to theorems that claim what is and is not possible when there's still so much utterly unknown about the very things they theorize.

No one knows what dark matter is, they have only unproven theory.  No one knows what dark matter is, again only unproven theory.  Those two things make of the majority of the universe's mass, and dark energy is repulsive and causing the universe's expansion to accelerate, making it very strange indeed.  They likely have a great deal to do with everything. 

I have a feeling that once we identify them solidly, a lot of light will be shed on the quirks of particle behavior.

And that's what I meant with the instruments.  We don't have anything that has caught a trace of either dark matter or dark energy, and what gravity really is is still just a jumble of conflicting equations too.  The machines that identify a particle for dark matter and the form of dark energy may discover many other things as well that no ever even thought existed.

We can only wait and see.  Closing ones mind to possibility is not scientific, it's arrogance.  A theorem is only as good as the knowledge that it's based upon.  So long as any unknowns remain, you cannot be sure that there is no room for flexibility.

[Tezkat]

We're talking about predictions here.  We don't know what makes particles move the way they do.

Actually, we have a pretty good idea about what makes particles move.  Particles give off fields, and if another particle is in that field, it will be attracted or repelled.

General relativity goes further and says that spacetime is just a manifold that is stretched out by these particles and that particles will tend to move toward the bits that are more stretched out.
(I don't know a lot about GR, so I might be off-base, here)

Ah, but that's the problem, you see. One can easily derive all of classical Newtonian mechanics from quantum mechanics simply by zeroing out terms that become insignificant beyond the nano scale. It is not possible (with our current understanding of the universe) to do the same with general relativity. Until we understand why these "fields" look similar but have completely different and incompatible mechanisms under the hood, it's difficult to claim that we understand why particles move...

[gh0st]

I forget where the source is but I read that gravity is essentially useless in the atomic world. so if parallel universes are real and each atom is exhibiting a force on our galaxy in the form of dark matter. then it would essentially be more than possible to never find this as it's affect would be so minuscule that it would exhibit next to nothing on large bodies of mass yet there is still something in the "void" of space that keeps everything tethered from flying into the space between these parallel universes...

so when the universe's boundaries are torn and shredded as easily as say when mab goes to the faye kingdom that when the portal is finally closed, if at all it ever does, and say that this tear in the fabric of space continues to expand then it could suck everything either into mabs glen, causing a rather embarrassing view of the newly expanded house or it can explode violently as everything is sucked into the limbo of the space between other universes................ or it could just link this universe with the next one over and essentially merge 2 mushed universes into one which would lead to either the discovery of a range of things from new elements to new creatures or even say the land of dmfa or it could completely destroy the laws of physics we'd all fly apart at the speed of whatever and nothing would be left thats stable enough to sustain life... and acording to the thing-a-majig that says that anything thats a possibility has happened then somewhere some how this is all true and is about to happen right as you read this.

yaaaaaaa i made a theory does that mean that i could get paid to drive a Ferrari and destroy the universe as we know it?

[Tezkat]

I forget where the source is but I read that gravity is essentially useless in the atomic world. so if parallel universes are real and each atom is exhibiting a force on our galaxy in the form of dark matter. then it would essentially be more than possible to never find this as it's affect would be so minuscule that it would exhibit next to nothing on large bodies of mass yet there is still something in the "void" of space that keeps everything tethered from flying into the space between these parallel universes...

Just as the effects of electromagnetism and nuclear forces are insignificant at planetary distances, the effect of gravity inside an atom is negligible compared to other forces unless you're dealing with fields on the scale of a neutron star. However, if there's a lot of it, there will be an effect. Galaxies are, after all, just very large clusters of atoms.

You'll probably get credit for the first attempt to attribute cosmic dark matter observations to the actions of a fluffy-tailed purple kitty, though.

[gh0st]

I forget where the source is but I read that gravity is essentially useless in the atomic world. so if parallel universes are real and each atom is exhibiting a force on our galaxy in the form of dark matter. then it would essentially be more than possible to never find this as it's affect would be so minuscule that it would exhibit next to nothing on large bodies of mass yet there is still something in the "void" of space that keeps everything tethered from flying into the space between these parallel universes...

Just as the effects of electromagnetism and nuclear forces are insignificant at planetary distances, the effect of gravity inside an atom is negligible compared to other forces unless you're dealing with fields on the scale of a neutron star. However, if there's a lot of it, there will be an effect. Galaxies are, after all, just very large clusters of atoms.

You'll probably get credit for the first attempt to attribute cosmic dark matter observations to the actions of a fluffy-tailed purple kitty, though.

rather large quote anyways so in order to observe the dark matter to even prove it we'd either have to
a. go into the limbo inbetween the universes or
b. observe a large body of high density mass say a massive black whole at the center of the galaxie

i vote b because it's less likely to destroy the universe.

[Arcalane]

The machines that identify a particle for dark matter and the form of dark energy may discover many other things as well that no ever even thought existed.

Why am I suddenly reminded of Breen's speech to Freeman, during the final stages of Half Life 2?

"Doctor Freeman, you really shouldn't be out there. At the moment of synapse as I teleport this chamber will be bathed in deadly particles that have yet to be named by human science. Perhaps when I have the leisure to do the work myself, I'll name one of them after you; that way you won't be completely forgotten. When the singularity collapses, I will be far away from here - in another universe, as a matter of fact. You, on the other hand will be destroyed in every way it is possible to be destroyed, and even in some which are essentially impossible!"

[superluser]

Mmmm-hmm, just like going faster than the speed of sound was impossible until someone found out how to do it.

Except we've tested just about every aspect of quantum mechanics experimentally.  Bell's theorem, the uncertainty principle, Planck's law...

And that's what I meant with the instruments.  We don't have anything that has caught a trace of either dark matter or dark energy, and what gravity really is is still just a jumble of conflicting equations too.

We may already know (and have detected) what a lot of that dark matter is.  A lot of the hot dark matter is likely to be neutrinos.  Cold dark matter is a different story, but it may turn out to be something that we already know behaving in a different manner than we had expected.

Gravity pretty much has one equation, and it works pretty well for anything where we can detect gravity.

We can only wait and see.  Closing ones mind to possibility is not scientific, it's arrogance.

It is also arrogance to say that tested theories are wrong in particular ways based on no evidence.

Ah, but that's the problem, you see. One can easily derive all of classical Newtonian mechanics from quantum mechanics simply by zeroing out terms that become insignificant beyond the nano scale. It is not possible (with our current understanding of the universe) to do the same with general relativity.

Both QM and GR predict similar models for how and why particles move.  It is unlikely that it will turn out that particles are simply moving in odd ways that neither theory predicts.

I forget where the source is but I read that gravity is essentially useless in the atomic world.

What Tezkat said, but here's a bit more.  Here are some facts and figures:

Charge on a proton: 1.6E-19 Coulomb
Mass of a proton: 1.7E-27 kg

Gravitational force between two protons one picometer apart (using Newton's theory of universal gravitation): -1.9E-40 N

Electromagnetic force between two protons one picometer apart (Coulomb's law): 2.3E-4 N

That's a undecillion times more powerful. (Luckily, I don't have to show the size of the strong force, since it can't act at distances that large)

yaaaaaaa i made a theory does that mean that i could get paid to drive a Ferrari and destroy the universe as we know it?

On a physicist's salary?

in order to observe the dark matter to even prove it we'd either have to
a. go into the limbo inbetween the universes or
b. observe a large body of high density mass say a massive black whole at the center of the galaxie

I'm not sure what your theory is here, so I'm having a hard time following.

I have, however, been quite close to the center of a Galaxie before.  I thought those little dealies above the headlights were pretty nifty.

Well let's face it. It never really made any sense that objects that heavy should become lighter than air. But as with many pre-existing phenomena, we sort of worked backwards to come up with scientific justifications.

Now, the so-called ``Bernoulli Effect'' postulates that air currents, set into rotation beneath the wing's surface create a vacuum that produces lift and so forth. Now, that sounds like a load of crap, well, that's because it is. But we needed an explanation.  We all feared that one day it would simply cease to function, and common sense would prevail, and the whole theory of flight would collapse.

And today, of course, that's exactly what's happened. Flight no longer works.

I should also point out that I have grave doubts about electricity.

[Kamunt]

Too many big words in here, and here I am without my science brain again.   :mowdizzyThings would be so much simpler if could all just agree that God makes all this so and that he will show us the answer when the time is right.

Personally, though, I like Hawking's proposed Black Hole/White Hole theory (was that him?), because it does technically keep the Laws of Mass and Energy still in effect. Also, I'm 17--give me a break. I may be a jeanyus, but that doesn't mean I know everything.

.....Yet. *CLAW-HAND*

[Alondro]

Gravity's equation only explains the effects of the force, not what it is.

No one knows what gravity is or how it causes the attraction of mass and energy.

Every year there's another article in "Discover" with someone trying to figure out what gravity is.

And though gravity itself may not effect actions between particles too much, it does have effects on atoms and smaller particles when it's intense, otherwise black holes would be spewing high-energy particles constantly from their centers as the particles merrily skipped through this force that meant nothing to them.

[Kamunt]

No one knows what gravity is[...]

...Um....yeah, we do. Gravity is the force of attraction between two bodies, whether it be me and the Earth's (inner core), or maybe Earth to its satellite (what's the technical name for Earth's moon again, other than "The Moon"?). Oh yeah, black holes are big gravity deathtraps, too, aren't they? Yeah, always forget about those.

P.S. I know what you mean, Alondro, I'm just being a smart aleck.

[superluser]

Gravity's equation only explains the effects of the force, not what it is.

You said that it was ``just a jumble of conflicting equations,'' which is different from saying that we don't understand it.

Which I agree.  We don't.

Every year there's another article in "Discover" with someone trying to figure out what gravity is.

Bob Guccione's rag?

And though gravity itself may not effect actions between particles too much, it does have effects on atoms and smaller particles when it's intense

No one was saying otherwise.

[gh0st]

arcalane:

my first theory is that we shouldn't mess with other universes... i mean come on i'd rather not be stuck in a time paradox forever or get blasted apart as another universes physics collide with ours.

my second theory is that in order to find what we are looking for (dark matter) we need to look at it from a different perspective! if you've ever noticed earth is amazingly in the right spot to view the gods eye nebulae perfectly or even most things that we learned about space probably couldn't be done if we were on a planet in a different solar system. but at the same time it can't be perfect so were slice open into limbo send a probe and close it just in time to save the universe.then we pick it up somehow and study the info...

[Alondro]

Here's a better way of saying what my rapidly written rambles couldn't cover:

(This problem must be put in the proper context, however. In particular, contrary to the popular but erroneous claim that quantum mechanics and general relativity are fundamentally incompatible, one can in fact demonstrate that the structure of general relativity essentially follows inevitably from the quantum mechanics of interacting theoretical spin-2 massless particles (called gravitons). While there is no concrete proof of the existence of gravitons, all quantized theories of matter necessitate their existence. Supporting this theory is the observation that all other fundamental forces have one or more messenger particle, EXCEPT gravity, leading researchers to believe that at least one most likely does exist, which they have named, the graviton.

If the graviton turns out not to exist, it will render all work based on quantized macroscopic physics flawed, and destroy virtually all the accepted notions of a unified theory of physics since the 1970's, including String theory, Superstring theory, M-theory, Loop Quantum Gravity, and Quantum Gravity, among others.)

From Wiki.

This pretty much covers what I've been saying from all my reading.  If the graviton doesn't exist, a whole lot of stuff goes right out the window.  They're getting pretty desperate to find it. 

It's what I've been trying to express about gravity.  The truth of what it actually is could revolutionize a good deal of modern physics, or prove alot of theories correct.  We won't know until we understand gravity.


EDIT:  Now this is impressive:  In June 2007, Ashton Bradley's team at the Australian Research Council Center of Excellence for Quantum Atom Optics in Brisbane, Australia, proposed a technique that avoids quantum entanglement entirely. "We're talking about a beam of about 5000 particles disappearing from one place and appearing somewhere else", says Bradley. "We feel that our scheme is closer in spirit to the original fictional concept", he adds. While the technique can also transmit quantum information in the beam, the technique itself does not rely on the quantum properties of particles, so the team have dubbed the new method "classical teleportation". John Close, an expert on atomic laser physics at the Australian National University in Canberra, is impressed. "Using entangled atomic states looks pretty tough in comparison." Close wants to set up an experiment to test the system, but estimates it will take at least four years.

Cool.  If that actually works, it opens up a whole lot of very interesting possibilities.

EDIT #2:  Ack!  Even more reason why understanding gravity is so important:  A definite theoretical decision on the status of the chronology protection conjecture would require a full theory of quantum gravity as opposed to the semiclassical arguments that have been mainly used to support it (there are also some arguments from string theory which seem to support chronology protection, but string theory is not yet a complete theory of quantum gravity). Experimental observation of closed timelike curves would of course demonstrate this conjecture to be false, but short of that, if physicists had a theory of quantum gravity whose predictions had been well-confirmed in other areas, this would give them a significant degree of confidence in the theory's predictions about the possibility or impossibility of time travel.

So, gravity is pretty much the axis for proving or disproving a whole bunch of theories.   

[superluser]

In particular, contrary to the popular but erroneous claim that quantum mechanics and general relativity are fundamentally incompatible, one can in fact demonstrate that the structure of general relativity essentially follows inevitably from the quantum mechanics

How do you explain simultaneity?

[Alondro]

In particular, contrary to the popular but erroneous claim that quantum mechanics and general relativity are fundamentally incompatible, one can in fact demonstrate that the structure of general relativity essentially follows inevitably from the quantum mechanics

How do you explain simultaneity?

I don't know!  I was quoting from someone!  Arg, I studied biology in college, I can't learn all of quantum theory in a day!

I spent half of yesterday trying to catch up to all the new theory... my head hurts.   

[Kuari]

Studies also suggest that squirrels may one day conquer the world...

*cough*

On a more serious note...  gotta really wonder if the funding for this useless information actually goes to more secretive things and that the so called "scientists" that pop up in these studies just pull things out of their butt that can be figured out for almost no budget...  that or they are cheating their funders.

[gh0st]

shun the non-believer

you do have a point most scientists do get paid for bogus reasons such as womens breasts actually bounce more while jogging than previously thought and men enjoy sex more than women i mean come on is that really a study? but at the same time they are calling the force thats keeping us on earth gravity at the moment so I'm going to support it in hopes that in the future i don't do something horribly wrong

[Reese Tora]

shun the non-believer

shun! shuuuun! it's a magical leopluridon!

you do have a point most scientists do get paid for bogus reasons such as womens breasts actually bounce more while jogging than previously thought and men enjoy sex more than women i mean come on is that really a study? but at the same time they are calling the force thats keeping us on earth gravity at the moment so I'm going to support it in hopes that in the future i don't do something horribly wrong

In thier relevant fields, these can be very important things. (in the first, it could contribute to, say, more comfortable bra design) or an off shoot of other research (in the second, perhaps it was discovered while setting a base line for trying to find a way to stimulate a greater pleasure response durring coitus? sex sells, after all!)

In either case, it gives some poor scientists an excuse to (scientifically)oogle bouncing breasts.  scientists need love too.

[Tezkat]

Studies also suggest that squirrels may one day conquer the world...

*cough*

On a more serious note...  gotta really wonder if the funding for this useless information actually goes to more secretive things and that the so called "scientists" that pop up in these studies just pull things out of their butt that can be figured out for almost no budget...  that or they are cheating their funders.

You don't need grant money to sit on your ass all day pondering the nature of the universe. Tenure will do fine.

Theoretical physics only gets expensive when you need to test your theories in the real world. And the materials, equipment, and manpower needed to... say... accelerate particles near the speed of light can be very, very expensive indeed.

What's up with all the conspiracy theory stuff, anyway? People fund research because they expect an overall return on their investments. If they consider their money well spent, why complain? "Scientists" who screw those people over tend to discover a lack of money flowing their way in the future...

[Alondro]

Theoretical physics only gets expensive when you need to test your theories in the real world. And the materials, equipment, and manpower needed to... say... accelerate particles near the speed of light can be very, very expensive indeed.

*Charles nah*  All they have to do is hold onto the particles and run really really fast.