25/8/7 Abel 96: Regards to the cleaner

[Tapewolf]

Even though they can survive for centuries if not millenia (it's one of those) on harmless emotion-feeding - no torture, no death.

The way I understand it, completely passive emotions only get you so far.  Amber seemed to be saying in the 'Comic time and conservation of energy' thread that your energy requirements increase with age, which does make sense.  If so, there's going to come a time when passive feeding doesn't cut it anymore and you have to look at more aggressive techniques.

[Caswin]

Even though they can survive for centuries if not millenia (it's one of those) on harmless emotion-feeding - no torture, no death.

The way I understand it, completely passive emotions only get you so far.  Amber seemed to be saying in the 'Comic time and conservation of energy' thread that your energy requirements increase with age, which does make sense.  If so, there's going to come a time when passive feeding doesn't cut it anymore and you have to look at more aggressive techniques.

First... yeah, it's called "old age".  And then you die.  It happens.

Second, a 'cubus looking to specifically incite strong emotions still shouldn't have to resort to killing, torture, or anything of the sort; there are plenty of ways to get someone on an emotional high without hurting them.  The only reason for that, if I'm understanding Amber right, is if the 'cubus in question had a particular thing for pain or terror, which is most comparable to it being their favorite food.  Not exactly a pressing issue.

[Tapewolf]

First... yeah, it's called "old age".  And then you die.  It happens.

Urrr... arguably not.  Let me rephrase.  Retaining your youth requires an increasing amount of energy as you age, to the point at which you have to look at something other than passive absorption.

"Many a Cubi have spent their entire existence soul-stealing free and have lived perfectly fine and happy lives.  They just don't live as long or as powerful lives."
http://clockworkmansion.com/forum/index.php?topic=746.msg18019#msg18019

Since you seem to have misunderstood what I meant, I'll clarify that too.  'More aggressive techniques' doesn't necessarily mean soul-stealing.  Deliberately inducing emotions would probably be the next step since it's a bit less haphazard.  There's also dream-energy although that hasn't really been covered.

[Caswin]

Since you seem to have misunderstood, I'll clarify that too.  'More aggressive techniques' doesn't necessarily mean soul-stealing.

I didn't say it did.  I just said it doesn't necessitate hurting anybody, by yanking their souls out of their bodies or otherwise.

[Tapewolf]

I didn't say it did.  I just said it doesn't necessitate hurting anybody, by yanking their souls out of them or otherwise.

Ah, right.
Perhaps it's because I'm starting to get on in years myself, but this topic is one I've put a lot of thought into.  Indeed, the underlying theme in one of my stories is how to remain young without sacrificing other lives...

[Zedd]

This is what I think right here, Soul stealing is mainly could be a last resort type of thing. Magic can come easy if well learned how to use it. However some are just willed with the technique with vigurious training and life long labors of work to know all this major knowlage. I am hope I am right about this if not...Clear me up if you can.

[Fuyudenki]

My understanding was always that 3000 years is the natural Cubi lifespan, in the same way that 75-100 years is the natural Being lifespan.  They eat emotions just the same way that Beings eat Livestock, and that's how they live.  Some Cubi prefer the flavors of pain and terror to joy and wonder, and those emotions are more filling to them, so naturally, they want to eat what they like.  Well, Cubi are Creatures, and as we've already seen, most Creatures think nothing of inflicting death and bloody dismemberment on Beings for any number of reasons, be it hunger, wrath, marital infidelity, or just out for a good time.(kinda like our real-world cow-tipping)

But of course, Cubi, being Creatures, are consumed with an overwhelming desire to extend their lifespan beyond the natural 3000 or so years, and you can't really do that just by eating emotions, just like you can't extend your lifespan past 100 years just by eating more hamburgers.  In this case, they turn to stealing souls and consuming those, somewhat like an Elixer of Youth/Life.  They don't need it to live, they do need it to live past 3000, and as Creatures, they think little of taking one of those souls they just freed in the previous paragraph and sucking it down to give them a few bonus years, as well.

[techmaster-glitch]

Well said, Raist

[Caswin]

Some Cubi prefer the flavors of pain and terror to joy and wonder, and those emotions are more filling to them, so naturally, they want to eat what they like.

Ah, there's the issue (though I've little doubt you see it, too).  They want to.  Now, admittedly, killing to save your own life, while open to debate, is one thing (see vampires - in, on a bad day, all their self-righteous, "I'm a special vampire who doesn't burn up in the sun" glory - 'cubi are kind of the new vampires, heh).  But you're not going to catch me torturing any cows, sentient or not.

as Creatures, they think little of taking one of those souls they just freed

Okay, that article cannot come soon...

*Looks*

Why is there no "Creature" space in Demonology 101?  And as long as I'm on the topic, why is it called "Demonology", anyway?  Has Amber explained this?

[Reese Tora]

who gives the line about cubi who help cheer up sick kids.  I'll believe it when I see it...until then I have yet to find a valid counterargument against genocide.

The news doesn't cover the hundreds of Muslims who are rebuilding (or trying to) the middle east, it tells you about the few extreme Muslim terrorists blowing s### up.  I believe the same principal applies.
(IE: 'cubi causing mayhem is much more interesting than 'cubi entertaining at children's parties.  Hence, you see the one and not the other.  Cubi entertaining also does not advance the plot, though it would probably make a good one-off gag to have a 'cubi that feeds off terror dressing as a clown at the circus to prey on people with Coulrophobia.)

[Caswin]

(IE: 'cubi causing mayhem is much more interesting than 'cubi entertaining at children's parties.

Heh.  I'd actually say it's the other way around by now.

I'm unofficially calling that a wallpaper idea.

[Zedd]

Now for my next trick...A balloon sword!

[techmaster-glitch]

who gives the line about cubi who help cheer up sick kids.  I'll believe it when I see it...until then I have yet to find a valid counterargument against genocide.

The news doesn't cover the hundreds of Muslims who are rebuilding (or trying to) the middle east, it tells you about the few extreme Muslim terrorists blowing s### up.  I believe the same principal applies.
(IE: 'cubi causing mayhem is much more interesting than 'cubi entertaining at children's parties.  Hence, you see the one and not the other.  Cubi entertaining also does not advance the plot, though it would probably make a good one-off gag to have a 'cubi that feeds off terror dressing as a clown at the circus to prey on people with Coulrophobia.)

And while we're at it, here's another example

[Fuyudenki]

  more or less.  Not all cubi are evil, soul-stealing monsters.  As Abel said, though, the soul-stealing monsters are the type more likely to be written about.  Nobody writes a fiction story about nothing happening, that violates the very core premise of what a "story" is.  It's not a story if nothing happens, it's just a record, or a journal, or meeting minutes, and nobody would watch it anyway, because it's just not interesting.

Caswin, the answer to your question lies in one of the "Questions from the Readers" comics, wherein Amber explained that basically, if it's not a Being(akin to humans in our world), it's a Creature.(or Livestock)  ...Phoenixes, Griffons, Mers, Insectus, Undead, Mythos, Cubi, Demons, Angels, Fae, Dragons, Weres, Mows, DeathBringer AKA 'Deebs', Humans...are all various Creature races.

maybe not Humans.

[Caswin]

Not all cubi are evil, soul-stealing monsters.

Not the issue here, I didn't think, but as long as you've brought it up...

As Abel said, though, the soul-stealing monsters are the type more likely to be written about.  Nobody writes a fiction story about nothing happening, that violates the very core premise of what a "story" is.  It's not a story if nothing happens, it's just a record, or a journal, or meeting minutes, and nobody would watch it anyway, because it's just not interesting.

Ah, but one thing to watch out for there - indeed, something I think chaotik was getting at - is that most stories, while certainly not without conflict, don't focus solely on the havoc-wreaking villains.  Are there no 'cubi adventurers?  Heroes?  Noteworthy wacky supporting characters not promoting pain and terror?  From what we've seen (well, besides Dan), you wouldn't think so.

Caswin, the answer to your question lies in one of the "Questions from the Readers" comics, wherein Amber explained that basically, if it's not a Being(akin to humans in our world), it's a Creature.(or Livestock)

That bit always confused me.  What qualifies as a Being in the first place?  How can you tell?  Is it just by virtue of not being anything else?

[AndersW]

I believe the middle panel of this comic sums up almost everything there is to say about large groups of people.

It is the loud and obvious people that that make the first impression on people.

[techmaster-glitch]

Caswin, the answer to your question lies in one of the "Questions from the Readers" comics, wherein Amber explained that basically, if it's not a Being(akin to humans in our world), it's a Creature.(or Livestock)

That bit always confused me.  What qualifies as a Being in the first place?  How can you tell?  Is it just by virtue of not being anything else?

Beings in Furrae are the equivalent of Humans in any fantasy setting, in that they have no special attributes or abilities, and account for 50-freaking-percent of the world's population.

[Tapewolf]

Are there no 'cubi adventurers?  Heroes?  Noteworthy wacky supporting characters not promoting pain and terror?  From what we've seen (well, besides Dan), you wouldn't think so.

Abel, 602.2: "Do you honestly know how many adventurers-turned-'Cubi have come to SAIA thinking they could just grab a sword and 'show 'em who's boss'?   It's almost laughable."

So there are a number of adventurers who are born into Being society and are later identified as 'Cubi and sent to SAIA.  Whether they are still adventurers when they leave SAIA is another matter, of course.

It's not impossible that someone like Dan could pass through the Academy in a relatively short space of time and come out as a 'Cubi adventurer.  Maybe defend a town from rogue Creatures the way Angels sometimes do.

[Caswin]

It's not impossible that someone like Dan could pass through the Academy in a relatively short space of time and come out as a 'Cubi adventurer.  Maybe defend a town from rogue Creatures the way Angels sometimes do.

I don't even see the need for the "not impossible" tag.  What would prevent them from doing whatever they were doing?

[Tapewolf]

I don't even see the need for the "not impossible" tag.  What would prevent them from doing whatever they were doing?

The presence of an adventurer-slaying department in SAIA would indicate that this is not entirely considered desirable

Mind you, the ASD is likely to be focusing on adventurers who target 'Cubi.  They might not care if our hypothetical student comes out targetting other Creatures.

[Caswin]

I don't even see the need for the "not impossible" tag.  What would prevent them from doing whatever they were doing?

The presence of an adventurer-slaying department in SAIA would indicate that this is not entirely considered desirable

The presence of a "Pain and Terror" class would, by the same token, indicate that its topic is desirable, but I think we've established that certain 'cubi would beg to differ.  (The ones that don't, of course, are the very reason they're usually deemed a threat in the first place.)

[Fuyudenki]

  haven't I seen that argument point before?  I could swear we're going around in circles!

[Tapewolf]

haven't I seen that argument point before?  I could swear we're going around in circles!

I don't remember a discussion of 'Cubi adventurers.  Doesn't mean there hasn't been one, though.

[techmaster-glitch]

haven't I seen that argument point before?  I could swear we're going around in circles!

I don't remember a discussion of 'Cubi adventurers.  Doesn't mean there hasn't been one, though.

He meat we're back where you guys started on this discussion, I think.

[Naldru]

Abel, 602.2: "Do you honestly know how many adventurers-turned-'Cubi have come to SAIA thinking they could just grab a sword and 'show 'em who's boss'?   It's almost laughable."

So there are a number of adventurers who are born into Being society and are later identified as 'Cubi and sent to SAIA.  Whether they are still adventurers when they leave SAIA is another matter, of course.

It's not impossible that someone like Dan could pass through the Academy in a relatively short space of time and come out as a 'Cubi adventurer.  Maybe defend a town from rogue Creatures the way Angels sometimes do.

I just looked at the strip you were referring to and found it very interesting.  Presumably a cubi who wanted to remain an adventurer would disguise himself so that people wouldn't know he's a cubi.  Wouldn't this fit what Aniz did.  It also implies that trying to provoke a cubi into an attack would be a normal part of cubi training.  Wouldn't this match what Aniz is trying to do to Abel here.  Perhaps his whole monologue was an attempt to get Abel to attack.

[AndersW]

I just looked at the strip you were referring to and found it very interesting.  Presumably a cubi who wanted to remain an adventurer would disguise himself so that people wouldn't know he's a cubi.  Wouldn't this fit what Aniz did.  It also implies that trying to provoke a cubi into an attack would be a normal part of cubi training.  Wouldn't this match what Aniz is trying to do to Abel here.  Perhaps his whole monologue was an attempt to get Abel to attack.

No, Aniz is an evil sadistic bastard that will get his one day, as the wheel of time grinds slow but fine.

[Caswin]

I just looked at the strip you were referring to and found it very interesting.  Presumably a cubi who wanted to remain an adventurer would disguise himself so that people wouldn't know he's a cubi.  Wouldn't this fit what Aniz did.  It also implies that trying to provoke a cubi into an attack would be a normal part of cubi training.  Wouldn't this match what Aniz is trying to do to Abel here.  Perhaps his whole monologue was an attempt to get Abel to attack.

No, Aniz is an evil sadistic bastard that will get his one day, as the wheel of time grinds slow but fine.

While I highly doubt he's an adventurer... that's eerily plausible. (Indeed, the things he's done are pretty close to a few of the more extreme "provoke the stupid adventurer into attacking us" tricks I've come up with.)

[Naldru]

The past episodes clearly seemed to show that Aniz was acting as an adventurer, saving towns from various beasts and creatures.  This could have been simply maintaining cover, a hoax, or adventuring is actually his chosen profession.

Strip 14
Strip 17

[superluser]

Nobody writes a fiction story about nothing happening, that violates the very core premise of what a "story" is.

I dunno.  I've read a few stories where nothing happened.  Good stories, too.

The presence of an adventurer-slaying department in SAIA would indicate that this is not entirely considered desirable

I don't think that Ink meant that it was a formal department of the academy, kinda like saying someone's a natural in the con man department.  Doesn't mean that there isn't one.

ESTRAGON: Nothing to be done.
VLADIMIR: I'm beginning to come round to that opinion.

[chaotik]

Personally I think the shades of grey argument is used WAY too much.  I think some things ARE Black and White in the world...and just because living in the world meand you're probably going to get some dirt in you, it doesn't give you free reign to do what you want as long as you "maintain SOME(percieved) good traits."  We have a lot of people like that out here in the World...we call them sociopaths.  Other than Abel, just about every cubi I've read about in canon or out fits into that catagory quite nicely.

     As for why I'm kveching about all this in the first place....yes, I realize some people(in uneasingly incresing numbers) like to write about the bad guys, making them "fun" or "tragic" but otherwise beating up on the little guy.  I can't remember the last time though, using DMFA as a reference, one of these manipulative, sadistic characters actually got slapped down for doing so.  there's just a punchline, then it's on to the next scenario.  I'd like to see Dan hand someone thier  ass on a platter for a change, instead of being handled like a puppet by whatever near-deity has decided to make his life hell this week.. I'd like Jyrras to stand up and show the "you're all my playthings but I'm funny so it's ok" Fay that f***ing around with people will eventually have serious negative consequenses. and YES, that goes for Mab too.(although as omnipotent characters go, she IS one of the better ones)  If the creature races want to live by the "I can do what I want because you can't stop me" philosophy, FINE. I say they're long overdue for  a large-scale recipocation of that philosophy.


*sigh* I miss my sunshine and cookies.