Air-powered car! Green energy is getting clever!

[Alondro]

Wow... this is pretty impressive! 

http://green.yahoo.com/index.php?q=node/315

Even though it has a long fill-up time, it'd be perfect for work commutes.  I could get to work and back home twice before needing to refill, which could be done overnight.. for only $2 worth of electricity! 

And it can't cost that much if they're making them in India first.  The safety is an issue, though.  These things would shatter if hit by an SUV or a semi. 

Well, it's still new tech.  The fact that it's highway operable at such an early stage of development gives it a huge advantage over the old battery-powered electric cars, which were slow and very expensive.  If it catches on, the technology will continue to improve. 

You know, this kind of innovation combined with electricity from safe and efficient pebble-bed nuclear reactors, trash-converted synthetic crude (using a new process that uses trash people usually have to pay to get rid of, like tires, plastics, and farm waste!), and ethanol from genetically-modified kudzu (which can produce more biomass per acre than any other plant species, plus use far less fertilizer and stop erosion) could all but eliminate the need for oil!  The marketplace will take care of it as oil prices continue to rise.  Cheap energy is better for businesses that are energy-demanding, and they'll invest in it to save themselves millions of dollars in energy costs. 

Not to mention the most feasible of these new energy forms provides a highly profitable investment opportunity, since the stock in these companies could explode exponentially if the technology takes hold.   I missed out on Microsoft and Walmart cuz I was too poor at the time to invest, but I can get in on this stuff at market-entry stock prices and make a mint!   

[RJ]

The Japanese made a car that runs on sake. I want that. 

[Netrogo]

That car blows.


Ha! First to make that horrible pun Anyways I don't think we'll ever see that car, not because of the crash stuff but, because the oil companies won't let us. They'll bribe the hell out of everything with a pulse to keep anything that get's us off their stuff away from us.

[Fuyudenki]

quite frankly, i wish they'd let us build more oil refineries, but that would just solve the American issue(there are roughly 2 refineries currently operating in the entire country at this moment.  The other three had breakdowns, and are starting to come back online, and all of them are older than I am.)

You missed one very important source of clean energy: solar power.  Stick solar panels on top of that car, and it'll juice itself up while you wait!

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Heh. Have you looked into the materials used -creating- solar panels?

[superluser]

Anyways I don't think we'll ever see that car, not because of the crash stuff but, because the oil companies won't let us. They'll bribe the hell out of everything with a pulse to keep anything that get's us off their stuff away from us.

Yes and no.  The oil companies can see the writing on the wall.  They know that the price can't go up much further without getting massive consumer revolt.  In the US, prices have already passed the 1981 record prices, even adjusted for inflation.  Remember, Americans started clamoring for ethanol during the 1979 energy crisis, when gas prices were the equivalent of $2.57 in 2006 US dollars.

The oil companies don't want us to be addicted to oil, they want us to be addicted to *them*.  They're spending a ton of money on alternative energy sources so that when we get through with gasoline (either because we run out or we decide that we don't like gas anymore), we'll still have to go to them for ethanol or hydrogen or natural gas or wind turbines.

Certainly, the oil companies are doing everything they can to make the process of leaving gasoline as slow and painful as possible, and that compressed air car is probably a larger threat because they can't control it as well as some other alternative energy sources, but the oil companies know full well that they can't oppose alternative energy for much longer if they want to stay in business.

Heh. Have you looked into the materials used -creating- solar panels?

This is a good point.

You may have noticed that I said that the oil companies will try to sell you wind turbines, not solar panels.  This is primarily because solar power is usually far less efficient than wind power.

[Valynth]

Heh. Have you looked into the materials used -creating- solar panels?

This is a good point.

You may have noticed that I said that the oil companies will try to sell you wind turbines, not solar panels.  This is primarily because solar power is usually far less efficient than wind power.

And then there's the fact that you can only drive durring the day unless you want to put a battery in the car to switch between the daylight to night time which would cause issues at the mid-points.

Frankly it'd just be easier to drive electric.

[xHaZxMaTx]

So far, I think bio-diesel is the most promising (for now, anyway), but this air-powered car looks pretty interesting.

[Axis]

I prefer the Matzu Matsuzawa Honda XL125
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/470MPG%20Main.html

[Netrogo]

That and anything powered by bananas right Axis

[Reese Tora]

I saw that car on 'future cars' on Discovery.  I don't think much of the fact the announcer suggested that the air engine could be used to power a generator that could power a compressor to put air in the tank and thus create perpetual motion.

BTW, electric cars are slow and unsuited to freeway driving?
Tesla Motors begs to differ.

Now if only they produced a model that didn't cost $92,000.

[superluser]

BTW, electric cars are slow and unsuited to freeway driving?
Tesla Motors begs to differ.

Holy shit!  0-60 in 4 seconds?  The Ferrari Enzo can only do 3.14 seconds.

[Netami]

I saw this on the news the other day. Mentioned it at the dinner table just tonight; pretty wicked stuff.

[Fuyudenki]

Heh. Have you looked into the materials used -creating- solar panels?

This is a good point.

You may have noticed that I said that the oil companies will try to sell you wind turbines, not solar panels.  This is primarily because solar power is usually far less efficient than wind power.

And then there's the fact that you can only drive durring the day unless you want to put a battery in the car to switch between the daylight to night time which would cause issues at the mid-points.

Frankly it'd just be easier to drive electric.

Sorry, but FAIL!  I was suggesting solar panels to juice up the car when you're not using it.  This particular car uses an air tank as a super high-density electrical storage via some sort of techno-wizardry I haven't bothered looking into for understanding yet.  Solar cars are inherently electric, and a solar car without a battery of some sort to hold onto power for a rainy day(literally, whee!) is just stupid.

The big point of this article is that the car uses an air tank in place of a conventional electric battery.

BTW, electric cars are slow and unsuited to freeway driving?
Tesla Motors begs to differ.

Oh, SWEET!  The name of my favorite scientist applied to a car sporting oomph worthy of it.  If I had $100,000, I'd throw down in an instant for something that smooth, powerful, and efficient.  The Tesla Roadster may have just de-throned the Lamborghini Diablo (VT roadster, version 2, convertible, bright red) as my dream car of choice.

[Valynth]

Sorry, but FAIL!  I was suggesting solar panels to juice up the car when you're not using it.  This particular car uses an air tank as a super high-density electrical storage via some sort of techno-wizardry I haven't bothered looking into for understanding yet.  Solar cars are inherently electric, and a solar car without a battery of some sort to hold onto power for a rainy day(literally, whee!) is just stupid.

The big point of this article is that the car uses an air tank in place of a conventional electric battery.

techno-wizardry?  Can I quote you on that?...  Oops, already did.

Anyway, I want to know exactly how much energy the car needs to compress the air.

My point is, there is no such thing as free energy.  It simply does not exist at our scale.  About the only source of energy we can rely on for a significant amount is time is nuclear energy (the sun is a nuclear reaction FYI), but that too will evetually run out, maybe not in our lifetimes, but thats what we thought about oil.

[Aridas]

Nobody said anything about free energy. What are YOU talking about then?

[superluser]

My point is, there is no such thing as free energy.  It simply does not exist at our scale.  About the only source of energy we can rely on for a significant amount is time is nuclear energy (the sun is a nuclear reaction FYI)

This is true.  If we run out of fossil fuels, we will only have hydroelectric power, geothermal power, solar power, wind power, ethanol, biogas...

[Valynth]

My point is, there is no such thing as free energy.  It simply does not exist at our scale.  About the only source of energy we can rely on for a significant amount is time is nuclear energy (the sun is a nuclear reaction FYI)

This is true.  If we run out of fossil fuels, we will only have hydroelectric power, geothermal power, solar power, wind power, ethanol, biogas...

Hydroelectric:  Requires a strong river and can be affected drastically by the weather as well as potentially having more enviromental impact than fossil fuels depending on where it's placed.

Geothermal:  Could cause cooling beneath the earth's surface, also only produces electricity in theory only, plus you need a good amount of energy and equipment just to dig far enough to start harnessing and volcanoes are unpredictable and spew more "green house gas" than our powerplants along with other hazardous materials.

Solar power:  Uh, the sun is nuclear therefore all power derived from it is nuclear in nature.

Wind power:  Changes like, well, the wind.

Ethanol:  This shows promise.

Biogas:  Name me a biogas that we can harvest reliably without drilling.  Getting enough animals to produce enough biogas would be a BIG drain on food resources.  The only difference between this and a fossil fuel is that occasionally you body makes it.

[Fuyudenki]

Ultimately, all power sources go back to Nuclear, it's just a question of the levels of indirection.  What didn't start in a Fusion or Fission reactor traces back to the Sun eventually.  The only exception is Geothermal, which takes energy from the heat of the Earth.  Wind, Hydro, and anything derived from animals are all powered by the Sun.

And yes, you can quote me on "Techno-wizardry."  In my mind, a Technomancer is anyone with a degree in the 4 schools of technological engineering: Computer Science, Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering, and Mechanical Engineering.  If you've got a good education in all of those, you can do things with technology that average people can't even understand, let alone begin to guess.  At this point, the rule that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic takes effect, and I believe the air car's power stores qualify as sufficiently advanced, for now.

Not saying there's anything mysterious or arcane about it, simply that it's a little beyond what most people can currently comprehend.

[xHaZxMaTx]

I heard my name...

I'm sure what superluser meant by biogas was biodiesel, which comes from... well, pretty much anything, from what I understand.

What we need is a Mr. Fusion.

Oh yeah, and I'd heard about the Tesla (Lotus) Roadster a while back (must have been about a year, now), but haven't heard anything really spectacular about it.

[Aridas]

the air car still requires some form of power to get it "charged", but it still cuts down on the total emissions and ends up using less resources in the end.

[Valynth]

the air car still requires some form of power to get it "charged", but it still cuts down on the total emissions and ends up using less resources in the end.

How can you say that without any numerical evidence what-so-ever?  I need to know how much power is consumed by the car in order to go from zero to full before I'd say such things.

[Reese Tora]

My point is, there is no such thing as free energy.  It simply does not exist at our scale.  About the only source of energy we can rely on for a significant amount is time is nuclear energy (the sun is a nuclear reaction FYI)

This is true.  If we run out of fossil fuels, we will only have hydroelectric power, geothermal power, solar power, wind power, ethanol, biogas...

Hydroelectric:  Requires a strong river and can be affected drastically by the weather as well as potentially having more enviromental impact than fossil fuels depending on where it's placed.

Not to mention that the power a dam can generate is limited by the height drop in a river.  Any dam also requires a LOT of time and effort to create and maintain.

Geothermal:  Could cause cooling beneath the earth's surface, also only produces electricity in theory only, plus you need a good amount of energy and equipment just to dig far enough to start harnessing and volcanoes are unpredictable and spew more "green house gas" than our powerplants along with other hazardous materials.

In theory? In fact.  California has one example of a Geothermal power plant: The Geysers
Geothermal is also nuclear based, as the heat in the earth's interior is believed to be, in part, maintained by the decay of fissionables as much as being caused by compression.

Solar power:  Uh, the sun is nuclear therefore all power derived from it is nuclear in nature.

Solar cells are also one of the LEAST efficient forms of energy available, high quality cells being able to capture a small amount of the light that strikes them in a narrow spectrum. (commercially available cells can be found with 16% efficiency, though some are as high as %40, which makes for about 160w per square meter under optimal conditions)  Solar cells converting radiant energy into electricity could contribute to global cooling, and solar arrays may cut off sunlight to vegetation.

Wind power:  Changes like, well, the wind.

Ethanol:  This shows promise.

Requires growing of crops to be fermented, harvesting, an initial investment of energy fro processing.  It's ultimately solar powered, and anything that could damage crops would damage fuel production.  On the other hand, I believe that ethanol and vegetable oil for bio-diesel can both be extracted from some crops, which would mean less waste and more efficiency.

Biogas:  Name me a biogas that we can harvest reliably without drilling.  Getting enough animals to produce enough biogas would be a BIG drain on food resources.  The only difference between this and a fossil fuel is that occasionally you body makes it.

Biogas, methane... you can get a lot of methane from sources other than animals, since it's essentially produced from decaying plant matter.  Methane is produced from numerous sources, and many of those are waste.  If the methane already produced in a year could be captured and it's energy harnessed, I think what would be produced would be rather impressive.

Tying this back into the original topic, cars, Only solar, ethanol, bio-diesel, wind, and biogas could be effective direct power sources for cars, due to portability.  Wind's been done, it's unreliable, and you'd have a hard time storing it's power.  Solar is also unreliable, and you'd need a lot of surface area to power a car, let alone save energy for later.  Biogas is portable, but I doubt it has the energy in it required to power a car, or not for long with the capacity a car could have.  Ethanol is a strong fuel, but it has a number of safety concerns. (for instance, burning with an invisible flame)  Bio-diesel is out there, it works for those that use it, but it's currently more costly to make than gas.(those that are saving money get free used oil from restaurants to make thier fuel from)

Hydrogen hasn't been mentioned, and well it hasn't.  Hydrogen requires more energy to generate than it gives in a fuel cell; it's almost a glorified battery technology.  You still have to generate the energy that hydrogen will carry.  I think that the vehicles most likely to succeed will be hybrid vehicles that use electric motors to turn the wheels, and are run off of batteries or capacitors charged by a portable fuel technology.  (Not hybrids in the same sense as the ones available now, which are all too dependant on gasoline.)

[bill]

The issue with plant fuels is farmland. If the entire industrialized decided to finally switch to Eth, or Biodiesel, there'd be issues with food prices, and available farmland. Farmland is a far more valuable item that it first may appear.

[Brunhidden]

not as drastically as you would think- one of the last developments we need to make before ethanol becomes feasible is to convert ALL the biomass of a given plant to ethanol instead of just the fruit. thus, instead of using just the corn to make ethanol we would use the cob, husks, leaves, and stalk as well. to further this people are tinkering with genetically engendered kudzu vines- which will produce more distillable biomass per acre then any other known plant and have a minimal effect on the soil quality... not to mention its a freaking weed so labor to maintain it will be virtually nill outside of harvesting.

also keep in mind that large swaths of farmland are being used inefficiently- for instance huge chunks of south America and the southern states of the USA being used solely for cattle grazing, a food source that demands far too much land for what it yields, seeing as how you don't even get any dairy out of them. the majority of farmers asked about price changes in crops admitted if crops like corn were more profitable due to ethanol production, they would grow more corn. its surprising that they would be able to just plain grow more, finding nooks and crannies usually left fallow or growing corn instead of less space efficient crops like soybeans.

a raise in the price of food is also a bit of a moot point- the crops in question such as corn are so cheap now that we are kinda lucky farmers hadent switched to a different crop before the ethanol craze started. a box of cornflakes is a good deal of food, yet the box cost more then the corn inside so i think we could survive if it went up a bit. the only impact ive seen so far is in Germany where crops like rapeseed are replacing the barley usually used to make beer- this year the price of barley malt has doubled, and the price of beer will follow suit within the year with Oktoberfest patrons expecting to pay ten dollars for a one liter flagon.

One of the other upsides of Biodiesel is that it uses soybeans normally put to evil purposes.
Soybeans have evil purposes?
Tofu.
Ugh! Your right.

[Alondro]

Thus my plan for a genetically engineered sugar-rich kudzu.  Do any of you realize just how fast kudzu can gow on its own?  Just think if it was deliberately tended, fertilized, trimmed and provided with nice sunny frames to grow on, with simply-designed little cutting robots powered by solar/wind-generated electricity moving along the frames every week or so to cut the new growth for processing. 

Ethanol production could eventually use any cellulose material, but that's only if one of several experimental and unproven methods actually prove cost-effective in real use.  A genetically-engineered kudzu would produce a constantly harvestable source of sugar in temperate climates with titanic biomass yields, require no nitrogen-based fertilizer (since kudzu is a legume), and actually prevent erosion in the fields its grown in due to its extensive root system. 

Its growth would be slower due to its shunting more carbon into sugars rather then cellulose for growth, but it would still outpace any other crop, and retain the other mentioned benefits.

This technology could produce ethanol in large quantities with relatively little land area compared to other crops.  Add to this a very promising method pf producing artificial crude oil from virtually any organic waste (including old tires and plastics) from a heat and pressure method one person has developed.  His prototype plant can currently produce crude for $20 a barrel! 

I expect that the combination of these two technologies would allow E85 to be produced in this country for about $1 a gallon, perpetually!  As long as humanity keeps making trash and keeps growing kudzu, the source of raw materials is inexhaustable.  Oil would only be needed for the creation of certain plastics and other petrochemicals for which the ethanol and artificial crude do not work. 

[superluser]

How can you say that without any numerical evidence what-so-ever?  I need to know how much power is consumed by the car in order to go from zero to full before I'd say such things.

Yeah, Aridas should have found some figures.  On the other hand, it's usually more efficient to generate energy in larger quantities.  If they generate all the energy to compress the air in one place, it's quite possible that it is more efficient than an ordinary gasoline-powered vehicle.

Also, Valynth, you said that ``the only source of energy we can rely on for a significant amount is time is nuclear energy,'' and I was simply pointing out that there are many sources of energy (most of which go back to the sun's nuclear reaction, yes) that we aren't going to run out of on anything short of an evolutionary time scale.

Solar cells are also one of the LEAST efficient forms of energy available, high quality cells being able to capture a small amount of the light that strikes them in a narrow spectrum. (commercially available cells can be found with 16% efficiency, though some are as high as %40, which makes for about 160w per square meter under optimal conditions)

Yeah.  There's another method of solar power generation that uses virtually all of the spectrum with much higher efficiency--something like 20-30% under nominal conditions.  But this is still terribly inefficient compared to most other energy sources.  Growing up in an area where the average wind speed was 11MPH, I think wind power is a great idea.

Hydrogen hasn't been mentioned, and well it hasn't.  Hydrogen requires more energy to generate than it gives in a fuel cell; it's almost a glorified battery technology.

Though, frankly, we're going to need that glorified battery.  Our current batteries are rather crappy.

Biogas, methane...

...home of the spice.  (sorry)

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Biogas, methane...

...home of the spice.  (sorry)

The spice must flow. (not half as sorry as I am...)

[GabrielsThoughts]

$2.00 to refuel sounds like a pipe dream, the state of Colorado is charges more than $4.00 a gallon, and Nevada is quickly catching up.

[Alondro]

$2.00 to refuel sounds like a pipe dream, the state of Colorado is charges more than $4.00 a gallon, and Nevada is quickly catching up.

That's the electricity cost of running the compressor.  The air-car doesn't use gasoline.

Oh, and for lots of info on the trash-to-oil stuff...

http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2004/Changing-World-Technologies4apr04.htm

Even limited use, if nothing else, would get rid of all the organic waste that we currently don't have any real way of getting rid of, plus getting a useful product as a result.  It's generating a huge amount of interest and there's a plant getting built right here in Philly that can use sewage!  Now there's a very major application for cities, especially in desert areas! 

And the Navy is interested in versions that could fit on ships.  In the ocean and running out of gas?  Tell all the sailors to eat more roughage!   

Even if it never has enough use to solve oil supply, it will finally solve a great number of solid waste problems.