03/09/07 [#759] Feelings

[Netami]

Buh. You ever watch a show for awhile and then suddenly an episode you watch makes you feel weird? Like it's ruining the show, or the characters are doing something out of character/ I felt that way with Southpark's episode of killing off Chef. I felt that way with the out of character actions of Lois in Family Guy during the episode when she cheats on Peter.

Yeah, retarded little cartoons shows, and now this retarded little furry comic. Jyrras coming out of the closet seemed, to me, like Amber was just finally getting the BS out of the way with people speculating for YEARS about people's stances. Obviously if Jy was gay, Lorenda wasn't going to be with him and now we have these, as I personally feel, stressed character actions. It seems fake that Lorenda is going to talk to her mom, a horrible type of person for support, in asking something that doesn't seem to fit into her character. She's got the "grr" eyes for the past few comics, and everything seems so fake. As with the Aaryanna break up, it comes suddenly and without much feeling to it; Merl then skips out of the comic conveniently.

I liked DMFA when it was ambiguous on character "alignments." So much focus on this stuff just amounts to major fail in my book.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled giggles and "omg cute shock! cavities!" posts. Me and my book are going to scoot away. 

[Seth C Triggs]

I am having trouble matching up Kria, a demoness who can kill without remorse, with someone like Jyrras.

I have further trouble reconciling this matchup as a "cure" for his shyness or whatever.

If anything, I feel like Jyrras can handle himself. He stepped up to the plate big time and acknowledged his feelings. Yes, he was rebuffed—but you're going to get that.

And if that weren't enough, while the psychoanalysis was very interesting, I have trouble seeing Jyrras having a "masculinity" issue that needs to be "fixed." What exactly is "masculinity?" I don't even see it having a meaningful context in this world to begin with, but in real life, masculinity means different things to different people.

Family situation is not something that needs to be deterministic, mind you. For example, I have numerous people in my acquaintance with "normal" nuclear families and they've had trouble maintaining relationships. And conversely, some people with demonstrably "broken" families have ended up holding some of the best and most long-lasting relationships.

I could definitely use more clarification on the "masculinity" bit. I can't agree at all with Kria being a match for Jyrras though.

-Seth

[Amber Williams]

Eh. I can't argue the Aaryanna/Merlitz thing. That was a bad mojo from the word "go".

Back when DMFA first started, Merlitz and Mab on Furcadia were an item, and I in my character-making phase thought it would be cute to reflect the crushy feelings into the comic.  Which then turned awkward when Merlitz and I drifted apart.  So when Merlitz came about with a new girlfriend Aaryanna and asked if I could put her in the comic, I jumped at the chance since it would be a good way to put a nice wedge in the whole Merlitz/Mab awkwardness.

Of course, go figure, the real life Merlitz and Aaryanna broke up a while later.  And it wasn't a pretty breakup.  So I was asked as a favour to break the two in comic due to awkwardness.  Which I obliged.  And then there was/is the resulting awkwardness of "what do I do with these characters without pissing off both respective owners". So I've put them on backburner for time being.  And it was then on out I've decided to really hold back from introducing other-people owned characters.

[Kenji]

[...]And it was then on out I've decided to really hold back from introducing other-people owned characters.

And it was then that Amber decided to somehow get this information out to the public, thus halving the amount of e-mails she gets by preventing people from sending her e-mails with the summarization if "This character of mine could come in and help ____ and become good friends and maybe more!"

And then pies reigned from the sky. Yes, reigned. They are very powerful pies.

[Aridas]

And then I ate the pies, gaining godlike status. For two fortnights. During this time I begged Amber to marry me, but realized she'd already been taken long before I asked. With my evil plan to steal abel's story and make it happy-happy foiled, I just painted amber blue and went home to my cult.

[thegayhare]

Seth's points

I was wondering a lotof that myself

[Caswin]

I am having trouble matching up Kria, a demoness who can kill without remorse, with someone like Jyrras.

I think you're looking too far into things.
The Kria we've seen in the current comic is violent and unpredictable. I mean, just a few strips ago, she was all for killing Jyrras. That doesn't sound like the beginnings of a healthy and loving relationship to me.

Agreed and agreed.  I'm really surprised by how many people seem to be utterly ignoring Kria's serial killer-esque tendencies in their speculation.

And then I ate the pies, gaining godlike status... During this time I begged Amber... With my evil plan to steal [her] story... amber blue [oyster] cult.

Yar, we been in the same boat, you and I...

[superluser]

I realize a race of near immortals might have other means of coping, but being a human, looking from the perspective of reality, the Immortals just have longer and more deranged psychs.

``Those born to immortality instinctively know how to cope with it, but Wowbagger's not one of them.  Indeed, he's come to hate them, and he refers to them succinctly, and often, as the Load of Serene Bastards''  --The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Tertiary Phase

As to your points...

1. A dominating mother figure, combined with a laid-back dad equals a lack of teaching in the masculinity department. I mean, other than the sheer physical differences (his mother is not only emotionally but physically dominating) and this all culminates into a certain unavailability with his father, in the ways a father as a Man is supposed to teach and be an example to a son. This leaves him abit immasculine...and it's also the beginning of his shy tendencies.

We've seen very little of Jyrras' dad, so stating that he was too laid back when he was raising Jyrras, or that Jyrras didn't get enough roughhousing as a boy is reading a bit too much into it.  Plus, my dad did plenty of masculine things with me as a kid.  Didn't make me any more masculine.

I'm also not 100% sure that Jyrras' mom is as dominating as you make her out to be.  It's probably the reading that I would make, but it's more exegesis than stated character traits.

Honestly, I really do suggest Kria. She's ancient, experienced. It will be going after a mother-like figure, but she's the kind of person who could see his problems and help work them out. Because she's a warrior, she could (through teaching him combat or some other, more esoteric form) bring out his inner MAN, his inner masculinity and confidence that is sadly lacking.

I'm not sure that Kria would be cool with that.  I rather think that she either wants a boytoy or some ingénu to manipulate.  She clearly wants to be the dominant party in the relationship, and would not suffer to teach him how to be manly.  The only things that she'd be teaching Jyrras would revolve around bringing him down and learned helplessness.

If you want to teach Jyrras how to be a man, get him this book:

[ShadesFox]

And then pies reigned from the sky. Yes, reigned. They are very powerful pies.

You say pie, but I'm thinking 'cubi!  Shape shifters, you have to keep an eye on them.

[Zedd]

And then pies reigned from the sky. Yes, reigned. They are very powerful pies.

You say pie, but I'm thinking 'cubi!  Shape shifters, you have to keep an eye on them.

But I dont want to be berry filled

[Kenji]

Fine, fine.. meat pie it is then..

[luiqui]

And if that weren't enough, while the psychoanalysis was very interesting, I have trouble seeing Jyrras having a "masculinity" issue that needs to be "fixed." What exactly is "masculinity?" I don't even see it having a meaningful context in this world to begin with, but in real life, masculinity means different things to different people.

Totally with you here. Since forever, I've never seen gender as anything more than what society expects you to like and want based on your bits, and found it a ludicrously backward concept. It has come as quite a surprise to me learn that some people actually take pride in their gender and regard it as important to them.

Anyway, I haven't see Jyrras showing any signs of gender issues.

[Azlan]

To approach back towards webcomics in general, I am interested in hearing thoughts on the prevalence of "gay relationships" as having assumed the "token black man" status that we seem to see today.  I think we have seen this done to a large extent and much of it done poorly, in a relatively shallow sense for both hetero and homo -sexual relationships.  Is there a correlation with the recent, heavily public exposure to same sex relationships, the explosion of the internet and our information based society or some other relevant factors?

 

[ShiningShadow]

Who knows this is a process that is delicate for Jy-Jy psyche and character. I bet we will have to wait a couple of more strips till this matter is resolved.

I'm very happy for Jyrass to deal with Dan and I sense of confidence in that roorat. I think it's baby steps in his sexuality till more emotional stuff happens.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

I'm not sure that Kria would be cool with that.  I rather think that she either wants a boytoy or some ingénu to manipulate.  She clearly wants to be the dominant party in the relationship, and would not suffer to teach him how to be manly.  The only things that she'd be teaching Jyrras would revolve around bringing him down and learned helplessness.

Arguably (and I'm going to start arguing, so fair warning :-] ) what Kria -appears- to want, and what she -actually- wants may well be two different things.

Case in point, the character Thandi Palane, from David Weber's Crown of Slaves, from the Honor Harrington series, at least peripherally - not to mention appearing in the wings of some of the other volumes - is an extremely strong, extremely powerful woman. Who likes to be dominated, as it happens, by a nice young man whom she can lift off the ground with one hand, overtops by about a head and a half, and is probably three times the weight of...

People are weird. *shrug*

So, that in mind, it's possible that, all outward tendencies aside, Kria actually wants to be dominated in the bedroom, as it were. Swept off her feet, even - although I'll admit Jyjy would have some trouble lifting her... :-]

[Seth C Triggs]

To approach back towards webcomics in general, I am interested in hearing thoughts on the prevalence of "gay relationships" as having assumed the "token black man" status that we seem to see today.  I think we have seen this done to a large extent and much of it done poorly, in a relatively shallow sense for both hetero and homo -sexual relationships.  Is there a correlation with the recent, heavily public exposure to same sex relationships, the explosion of the internet and our information based society or some other relevant factors?

Honestly, in my webcomic travels I don't really see much of that. The primary characters in pretty much all the comics I read tend to be heterosexual. Other than in the comics I draw, which exist in a weird ontology, I know of one poly relationship depicted in a limelight fashion, and one, maybe two homosexual relationships - and in neither case are the characters defined by their orientation from where I sit.

I do think that the openness of information on the Internet makes it easier for people to reach out, and find those similar to them—indeed it's harder to be closeted when you know there's people to reach out to you, and you can actually see people open about themselves and they're just like you.

Now I fully confess to being not as well-read in webcomics as many of you undoubtedly are—nor am I well-versed in pop culture. So if any of you can cite webcomics that have gay relationships placed in as a 'token' sort of position, or are just done as a "Hey these are gay people!" sort of thing, let's hear them out! I think this would be an interesting discussion.

In my experience, I think that the actual numbers of gay people depicted in comics is quite low, even in furrydom (which is assumed to facilitate a far higher occurrence of GLBT people than would be expected in "real life"). I'd very much like opinions and evidence to the contrary though. And I'd definitely like to explore the "masculinity" thing as well, as I find that this and the question of homosexual characters may actually have a little bit of an intersection here. I think the two questions are related.

-Seth

[superluser]

Totally with you here. Since forever, I've never seen gender as anything more than what society expects you to like and want based on your bits, and found it a ludicrously backward concept. It has come as quite a surprise to me learn that some people actually take pride in their gender and regard it as important to them.

Gender, most properly, refers to the grammatical attribute of words--masculine or feminine, as in ``his'' versus ``her.''  In English, this is quite limited, and the only place that I can think of where a gender is assigned to a sexless object is in ships (``We watched Dreadnought as she hove to'').

More broadly, `sex' is used to refer to the physical and genetic traits associated with male and female members of a particular organism.  `Gender' is used to refer to the cultural norms associated with a particular sex.  Sex is male or female; gender is masculine or feminine (or neuter, indeterminate, or various other designations).

As such, ``gender roles'' is redundant, since all genders are roles.  Gender is also not your role in a sexual relationship (e.g. you can take on the role of the homemaker and still be the `top').  Finally, gender is not the same thing as sexual identity.  You can be a feminine female who thinks that she's really a man trapped in a woman's body.  She might have sexual reassignment, but remain very feminine, because that's her gender.

That's one of the reasons that I'm not too keen on Sirios Skywolf's analysis, since it seems to conflate the three sex, orientation, and gender.

Arguably (and I'm going to start arguing, so fair warning :-] ) what Kria -appears- to want, and what she -actually- wants may well be two different things.

There's often a difference between what someone wants, what someone appears to want.  But the distinction that I'm making here is that--whether she actually wants it--Kria would probably be unhappy if she were not the one in control.  More to the point, I think that she would not take positive steps to become part of such a relationship. 

(SPOILERS for Million Dollar Baby!)
Take the analogy of Clint Eastwood's character in Million Dollar Baby.  He wants to end Maggie's pain by killing her.  He appears to want this, he knows that he wants this, but he cannot bring himself to do it, and when he finally does, it makes him feel terrible.
(END SPOILERS!)

So just because it's something that someone wants doesn't mean that it's something that someone will try to attain.

And I'd definitely like to explore the "masculinity" thing as well, as I find that this and the question of homosexual characters may actually have a little bit of an intersection here. I think the two questions are related.

I've expressed before how the issues are often conflated.  Take, for example, Daniel Paul Schreber, a doctor who woke up one morning feeling that it would be pleasant to succumb to sexual intercourse as a woman.  This, obviously, meant that he was insane, and he promptly wound up in an asylum.  It doesn't make Schreber any less masculine.  Likewise Tab Hunter was considered to be a masculine figure, but it didn't make him any more interested in the ladies.

Christopher Lowell has a very masculine figure, but is not very masculine in his affectations.  In Breakfast of Champions, Harry LeSabre likes to dress up as a woman and travel to transvestite parties with his wife.  Harry still wears the pants in the family.

I guess I'm just rambling examples here, but I hope I've made myself clear.

[luiqui]

Totally with you here. Since forever, I've never seen gender as anything more than what society expects you to like and want based on your bits, and found it a ludicrously backward concept. It has come as quite a surprise to me learn that some people actually take pride in their gender and regard it as important to them.

Gender, most properly, refers to the grammatical attribute of words--masculine or feminine, as in ``his'' versus ``her.''  In English, this is quite limited, and the only place that I can think of where a gender is assigned to a sexless object is in ships (``We watched Dreadnought as she hove to'').

More broadly, `sex' is used to refer to the physical and genetic traits associated with male and female members of a particular organism.  `Gender' is used to refer to the cultural norms associated with a particular sex.  Sex is male or female; gender is masculine or feminine (or neuter, indeterminate, or various other designations).

As such, ``gender roles'' is redundant, since all genders are roles.  Gender is also not your role in a sexual relationship (e.g. you can take on the role of the homemaker and still be the `top').  Finally, gender is not the same thing as sexual identity.  You can be a feminine female who thinks that she's really a man trapped in a woman's body.  She might have sexual reassignment, but remain very feminine, because that's her gender.

That's one of the reasons that I'm not too keen on Sirios Skywolf's analysis, since it seems to conflate the three sex, orientation, and gender.

That last paragraph there was very interesting. So you're saying gender is a purely descriptive term, regarding someone's behaviour in relation to some culturally defined male and female archetypes. It was implied that gender has nothing to do with identity - but surely any aspect of oneself can be made part of an identity?

I'm just going to muse on this further. You're saying 'sexual identity' is which biological sex you identify with. With regard to myself, I don't think I have a sexual identity. I see myself in both sexes, so to speak. This might explain the attitude I expressed in my post.

[Amber Williams]

(This is probably just a repeat of Superluser)  What I was generally taught in one of my classes was there are generally speaking, three spheres of influence.

Sex: Plain and simple, its what you are physically born with.  Unless you get one of those really wierd scenarios, you are most likely going to be born with male or female genitals and chromosomes.  And while the former can be altered, you can't really change your genetics.


Gender: Is how you personaly identify yourself.  This tends to not play much focus cause in most cases guys feel like a guy, girls feel like a girl.  Then there are cases where someone feels "like a man trapped in a womans body" or vice versa.  There is a lot of tizzy debate about if this is a nature/nurture reflected system, but thats another debate alltogether.   However, a lot of people get this one confused with people who simply dont acknowledge gender stereotypes.  A person who actually have a gender that doesnt match their sex are usually the kind who feel like they are lying if they have to checkmark their sex when filling out paperwork, and in cases are generally the type to undergo sex-changing.

Sexuality:  Basically, its what you are attracted to.  Gay, straight, bi, whatever.

On an average "normal" (and I only use normal in the relative sense) person, all three match up.  Male is born, identifies himself as male, attracted to females.  However depending on the three, you can get the opposite which might be male is born, identifies as a female, attracted to females. Or the whole "lesbian trapped in a mans body".  Which is always rough cause you end up with people going "well if you like females, why not just stay a guy and be normal?"


-----
I apologize in advance if I got this incredibly off-base. Its been a while since I had the class.

However, I would advise a bit of caution to some people before they start putting down psycho-analysis on themselves. It's kind of like how some people will read a few paragraphs of a disorder and go "oh! I think I have that." 

[luiqui]

Yeah, what Amber said seems to correlate more to what I thought I knew.

It's interesting you noted the form check boxes thing. I always hate having to fill those in.

...

off topiiiic

[superluser]

(This is probably just a repeat of Superluser)

So the creator and I agree on characterization theory?

Gender: Is how you personaly identify yourself.  This tends to not play much focus cause in most cases guys feel like a guy, girls feel like a girl.

I think it can be a little more complicated than that.  I would have agreed with that yesterday, but based on the examples that I was coming up with, I've changed my opinion.  For example, it doesn't take into account masculine transvestites or butch/femme distinctions.  I think that gender may have many components, not just the binary masculine/feminine, but I don't think that you or anyone else was explicitly suggesting otherwise.

[Aurawyn]

Tigger reference..

I don't think I get it..

[Nino]

To approach back towards webcomics in general, I am interested in hearing thoughts on the prevalence of "gay relationships" as having assumed the "token black man" status that we seem to see today.  I think we have seen this done to a large extent and much of it done poorly, in a relatively shallow sense for both hetero and homo -sexual relationships.  Is there a correlation with the recent, heavily public exposure to same sex relationships, the explosion of the internet and our information based society or some other relevant factors?

Honestly, in my webcomic travels I don't really see much of that. The primary characters in pretty much all the comics I read tend to be heterosexual. Other than in the comics I draw, which exist in a weird ontology, I know of one poly relationship depicted in a limelight fashion, and one, maybe two homosexual relationships - and in neither case are the characters defined by their orientation from where I sit.

http://www.questionablecontent.net/index.php -- About 30-60% of the main and supporting characters are gay (Dora is most likely bi, Pintsize did things with a male anthroPC, and I can't remember the redhead's name but she is a lesbian, and also the guy the main character used to work with was gay. Lots of others in there too but I can't remember them now). Made by a dude.
http://go-girly.com/ -- Main two protagonists are lesbians. I don't think there are any gay guys in there. Made by a dude.
http://www.pvponline.com/ -- Has a gay character (Max) that definitely seems to just be gay just for the benefit of the comic having a gay character. Also, in the current arc Fransis questions his sexuality. Made by a dude.
http://venusenvy.comicgenesis.com/ -- Lesbians, transsexuals, probably more queer folk in there than straight ones. Made by an M to F.
http://www.pholph.com/ (WARNING NSFW) -- Has gays featured from time to time. Made by a dude.

Also Arti and... Benji? The comic about the racoon and cheetah-like creature. That comic features a gay couple. Made by a woman. Link can be found under DMFA links.

Another one... boy meets boy. About gays, made by a woman. Link can be found under DMFA links.

Edit: I will say this: I don't much like reading comics that feature two homosexual characters of a different gender than the author. I feel like a woman is not going to understand that much about how gay guys feel and is doing the comic that way just because it appeals to her to have two guys together (ditto for men doing lesbian comics). Benji and Arti, for instance, have a very unrealistic relationship as far as I can tell. Same for the characters in Girly (though in Girly everything is meant to be highly unrealistic anyway). I've known gay guys, one of my roommates is actually a gay guy. They don't really act how women seem to "want" them to act. Just my two cents though.

Anyway, you asked for comics with homosexuals either as main characters so there you go.

Also, I HIGHLY OBJECT to the idea that Jyrras needs to be masculinized. YES, he needs to mature, but his personality is fine as it is. I don't much like macho guys anyway and I think the whole idea of wanting to be that way just gives you too much pride and tends to make you demean women. I stay away from those "meathead-esque" guys in real life and I don't think that's the ideal way for men to act.

Jyrras isn't even feminine, he's just a little bit on the wimpy side and a nerd. There's nothing that needs to be changed about that.

[thegayhare]

Also Arti and... Benji? The comic about the racoon and cheetah-like creature. That comic features a gay couple. Made by a woman. Link can be found under DMFA links.

Another one... boy meets boy. About gays, made by a woman. Link can be found under DMFA links.

I read most of those  just two things though

It's Vinci and Arty and Boy Meets Boy ended itsrun a while back.  The artist now has a new comic Freindly Hostility  featuring the family of two chars who showed up in BMB. Fox and Collin. Fox is Bi and his boyfreind Collin is gay.  The artist also has anouther comic 5ideways staring 2 straight guys, 1 straight guy trapped in the rotting body of a child and a Male to female transgendered char.

lets look at the rest of my list

Evil inc- has atleast one gay background char, though that seems to have been there just for a joke

something positive- has an infrequent male gay freind and alesbian couple who shw up once in a while

Carpie Diem... It's a soap opera ish comic centered on mainly gay chars (one of my altime favorites)

Closet Coon- Well the name says it all

Suburban jungle- Brodie coyote, Drezzer Wolf, the kangaroo's but they all seem fairly well fleshed out as chars (and I think Byron the bat and Ramses had sometihng once) but these are rather suporting chars

Cantena- none that I know of

Ozy and Millie- Two young to matter, the only confirmed couple is the main chars parents who are dating

Kevin and Kell- The Rhino girl a fairly background char

Six pack of otters-  all straight

Freefall- all straight as far as I know

Sabrina online-  Well there is Zig Zag

Peter is the wolf-  Oddly they just introduced  a realy flamboyant gay background char

End of things-  Not sure realy but they all seem straigh so far

looking for group- all straight as far as I know

Roomies- A lesbian couple makes occasional apearances

Vreakers- all straight I think (though Scare is cute)

Fur will Fly- A lesbian couple

Las lindas-  All straight

Fuax pas- Straight

El goonish shive-  one male gay char and a lesbian couple

Slop- a bi sexual serial killer (I think Tony counts as bi)

Dume- all seem straight

[Nino]

Also Arti and... Benji? The comic about the racoon and cheetah-like creature. That comic features a gay couple. Made by a woman. Link can be found under DMFA links.

Another one... boy meets boy. About gays, made by a woman. Link can be found under DMFA links.

I read most of those  just two things though

It's Vinci and Arty and Boy Meets Boy ended itsrun a while back.  The artist now has a new comic Freindly Hostility  featuring the family of two chars who showed up in BMB. Fox and Collin. Fox is Bi and his boyfreind Collin is gay.  The artist also has anouther comic 5ideways staring 2 straight guys, 1 straight guy trapped in the rotting body of a child and a Male to female transgendered char.

Thank you, I knew I got the name wrong

And yeah, I don't keep up with all of the comics I listed (though I've read through most of the archives on all of them).

Geez, you read a lot of webcomics =P

[thegayhare]

LOL
yeah I left a few off that too

I like my comics

[Zina]

Whereas I can agree with you that there are a lot of women out there that write gay couples in thier "idolized" version of what they want a gay couple to be(case in point, gay characters and couples in Japanese manga made by women. I dare you to find someone that actually acts like they do), I don't think it's fair that women shouldn't write homosexual pairings of the opposite gender because they don't understand how they feel. If that were the case, then women shouldn't write for straight males, either, since they don't understand how they feel. Or lesbians. They really shouldn't write for anyone other than their own gender and sexuality, because they wouldn't be able to understand how they feel. Same goes for men.
I've grown up around people of different sexuality all my life(Boulder is probably the most liberal place in Colorado and where the hippies went to die), and I do know that it takes all kinds to make the world work. My roommate is a self-described homophobe, even though he's SO VERY gay. He just really hates the gay stereotype, and unfortunatly for him, he's realized that the 'gay stereotype' is very much a reality. And it's made him become very bitter and surly. Or maybe that's just from living with me. I can't tell.
Case in point, I know that the relationship my roommate and his boyfriend have is very different from the one my mom's friend and his boyfriend have, from the one my cousin and his boyfriend have. It's like straight couples. Not all are the same, and you tend to go with what you know. And sometimes that IS a stereotypical relationship.

[superluser]

http://www.pvponline.com/ -- Has a gay character (Max) that definitely seems to just be gay just for the benefit of the comic having a gay character. Also, in the current arc Fransis questions his sexuality. Made by a dude.

Max Powers isn't gay.  Gwen is, though.

[Tapewolf]

lets look at the rest of my list

If you're compiling a list of comics and their treatment of homosexuality, I might point out 'Class Menagerie' which ran from 1999-2002 IIRC.
I believe it's in the same universe as 'Suburban Jungle', and indeed there are several characters who appear in both.  One of them - Mikey the Kangaroo - eventually confides to his female stalker that he is gay.
Just like Amber was saying earlier, he has been leery of revealing it because he didn't want it to become his sole defining characteristic.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Geez, you read a lot of webcomics =P

*cough*

I'm not sure, off the top of my head, which of those contain homosexual characters, either male or female, because it's not something I pay any attention to. I could make a list, though, if you really want....