Are these possible?

[Teroniss]

You know, there are some players at the gaming store I go to that just should be limited in the classes they are allowed to play in D&D. Two examples why:

1. Guy was playing a cleric, and the party was in a mountainous area being attacked by a high level duo of a rogue and sorceror. The cleric touched the ground and used stone shape spell. Now the way stone shape works is that it can shape 1ft + 2ft per level of stone into any non-complex shape. What he used it for was to form a sphere around the sorceror, and while the stone was still maliable from the spell, press it against her with no room to move. Because it is a utility spell, it offers no save in the book and all he has to do is touch the stone he wishes to shape. Since they were on a mountain it was all stone.

2. Same guy was playing a Psion and used Psionic Shelther or something like that. Psionic Shelter takes a bubble of extra dimensional space that can fit 7 large creatures and connects it to a part of the material plane via an extradimensional entrance for 1 hour per level. Now the player used that power to form the entrance against the wall of a ship so that half of the entrance would be inside the ship and the other half would be outside the ship, thus sinking the ship without having to put a hole in it.

Now I allowed these cuz I couldnt find anyway they actually broke the rules, but I wanted ya'lls opinion. Could these abilities actually be used like that?

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Sneaky.

For the former, I would be calculating just how much stone he has to manage to deal with -very- carefully...

For the latter, I think the doorway would have to points where it intersected the hull. I'm not sure I'd let it fly on that basis.

Other than those two niggles, it's very creative use of abilities - but perfectly legal. -Really- annoying to the DM, of course...

[Kasarn]

I thought avoiding resistance where you could get away with it was commonplace. I mean, there's the old teleporting people into walls and then there's Quest for Glory's setting the ground on fire instead of the person.

For the first one, the sorceror probably could have made a reflex save. They aren't going to stand still and it takes time for the stone to take shape. DM could also make the spell accidentally summon an earth elemental.

For the second, well, I don't know much about D&D but here's a DM power abuse...
Maybe the extra-dimensional space is the lair of a powerful planar. You've attracted his ire and it attacks the psion. If the psion severs the connection or dies, the portal is sealed and fails to do any damage.

[Teroniss]

Well, I shoulda known better then let him play a caster to begin with. This is a guy that when faced with 200 mounted raiders charging against the whole party takes a staff of stone and earth, and using half its charges, creates a 50ft line of 20ft deep mud in their path. With their momentum, the entire line of raiders hit the mud and plunged straight down.....next round he used the remaining charges to change the line of mud back into stone.....

[Lushin]

Well as to the the cleric thing. I would say he has to be touching the stone that was right around the sorceror. I would make him have to literally be just about touching her to pull it off. On the Psion thing I wouldn't count it. From what I understand the water wouldn't actually flow into the ship. Also I don't think the bubble would work through solid objects. Also if you are the DM and it doesn't seem right to you, doesn't matter if the other players think it's cool,  have no problem saying no. I mean I played a cleric once and drowned a guy using the spell Create Water. I managed to touch his chest then created about two gallons of water in his chest. After that the DM said I would never be allowed to do anything again. My rule of thumb as DM if it doesn't make any sense to you or you don't think that's how it works say no. Cause I know players that abuse the whole understanding how something works. They will use it, then when the DM questions it they will tell them how they figured it worked from what they read. It doesn't matter if you can't find anything about breaking the rules cause as it says in the DMG, it's all about how you see it and understand it.

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

... triggering the "roll to save" reflex, here.

Or that would be my call. "Your back to stone sortof worked. It created steps for them to climb out of the mud. They're now extremely unhappy, muddy, but still 200 of them. Enjoy."

[Teroniss]

Well, the 2 cleric things, eh, im having a hard time trying to thinking of a way that that wouldnt work......So I said screw it and have just attached ring of teleport with mental triggers to all of my enemies. As for the Psion thing.....eh, the way the power works is you grab an unoccupied astral plane bubble to use as a secure shelter. The entrance is a 7ft diameter that on command is invisible. The entrance has to be 10ft from you and attached to the material plane. If your on a static object such as a boat, you need to attach the entrance to a stationary part of that static object. The entrance can face any direction as long as its within 10ft and does not actually effect the physical substance of wahtever it's attached to(while the entrance is invisible, it can be walked through like normal space). Because of that, I cannot find any way to counteract that power short of blatant DM abuse....

[Shadrok]

The only D&D I've ever played are the video game versions so I can't really say anything about the spell uses, but all of it does remind me of A VG Cats comic.

Rat frail 

[superluser]

The entrance can face any direction as long as its within 10ft and does not actually effect the physical substance of wahtever it's attached to

Well, isn't obliterating the hull affecting it?

[Sid]

I think people like that are the reason why DMs have to be nasty-creative.

Take the Psion case. While it may be in line with the rules (though less in line with common sense since the entrance isn't really attached to the hull in the intuitive sense), the Psion just showcased the perfect way for NPC groups to enter ANY closed space the Psion might be in (like tavern rooms, ship cabins, etc.). So rob him while he's asleep. Or better yet, use that trick and cast some sort of poison cloud on the other side of the wall (thus letting it "flood" the Psion's room). Or a fireball. Or use a bomb. Or deposit an ogre.

"If it works for you, it works for me." is a VERY handy rule and discourages such on-the-edge tricks in the long term.

[superluser]

You know, was the mountain solid rock?  I must admit, I've never climbed Pike's Peak, but I think there's usually at least a layer of soil over it.

[Reese Tora]

The stoneshape spell effect couldn't be done.  The amterial component is a small ammount of soft clay that roughly worked into the shape desired, so he'd have to have had the shape in hand to cast the spell, hollow inside and all.  Also, the spell is instantanious, so he would not have been able to 'mold' it becasue it would not be still maleable.

for the staff... you can't use that many charges in one turn, you have to use a seperate standard action per effect, and each effect ahs a fixed cost of 1,2, or 3 charges, you can't spend more than that in a turn without some sort of special feat or magical effect in place that specifically allows you to.  I'm not sure what book that staff is in, but that's the way staffs function unless the descriptions ays otherwise.

As for the abuse of the psionic shelter spell, I'm not sure what book that's in, so I couldn't tell you if it's got safeguards against that, but it sounds like it's supposed to create a safe shelter,a nd I would rule that water can't enter it (or drain from it, for an aquatic manifester) simply because that would compromise it's safety
Reguardless, one hole is not enough to sink a ship, and not quickly, especially a wooden one, so I think the sailors could ahndle the mess until the power's durration ran out.
It also just occured to me that the spells effect is probably stationary, so the 'hole' would not stay with the ship's hull, thus rendering any moving ship safe from the effect.
(Remember, any spell effect that does not move with the caster normally will fall behind a moving vehicle. )

[llearch n'n'daCorna]

Oooo.

.. which means next time he cast that spell, his "safe area" would be full of water, too....

[thegayhare]

Oooo.

.. which means next time he cast that spell, his "safe area" would be full of water, too....

Course that could be usefull too

If it's alot of water

If theres a fire you can help put out the fire

If your being chased up a narrow corridor stairs you open the gate at the top and the water rushes down sweeping the persures off the stairs

Or if it's fresh water and your in the desert your set.

Edit
now that I think about it there could be lots of uses for a it,  If I could I might prepare something like this ahead of time depending on what your expecting

[Zedd]

Well be glad not dying of thurst

[Valynth]

Well, isn't obliterating the hull affecting it?

From what I understand, he didn't touch the hull so much as simply connect the door in the ship to a body of water.  The water flows in and sinks the ship without damaging it at all.

[Teroniss]

Ok, since yall dont seem to quite understand the mechanics of this psion power, ill give a diagram.



The way it works is you have an astral planar bubble, connected by a normally invisible entrance created by opening a hole between the material plane and the astral plane bubble that makes up the Psionic Shelter. The entrance created is 7ft in daimeter, and can be created facing any direction in reference to the psion, as long as the center is within 10ft.

As the diagram explains, normally the entrance can just be placed in mid-air and the shelter does not interact with the material plane at all. When made invisible, the entrance doesnt interact with the material plane either.

Now in a static location, such as aboard a ship, the entrance has to be placed in a stationary location, such as a wall, or the entrance will stay put while you move away from it. This does not affect whatever it is attached to in any damaging way, cuz once the power end, the entrance disappears and the area its attached to returns to normal.

The way he used it was to, like in the image, bisect the wall by placing the entrance perpendicular to the wall, with 3.5ft of the entrance outside, and 3.5ft inside. When he opened the entrance and made it visible, the shelter acted as a spherical tube, taking water in from outside the ship to the inside from the two halfs of the entrance.

[Reese Tora]

I think I found it... Psychoportive shelter, was it?

1 entrance only, 7 foot diameter sphere, and you generate a fresh one when using the power?

Personally, I'd rule that the power would fail if you try and manifest it in an area that is occupied (half way through a wall is occipied by the wall, so failure)

what book is that staff in? I can't seem to find it in any of mine...

[Brunhidden]

in my opinion it wouldnt be a very safe retreat if it allowed itself to be filled with water, which drowns most sapient hominids capable of useing psi powers. folowing the chain of thought if it can fill with water in this way it would also fill with water fi you were trying to escape a sinking ship, avoid molten lava, or in any way protect yourself from the many many hazardous liquids found in the D&D universe.

and i agree with the stone sphere thing, its too complex of a shape. now if they just made a big ball to one side of the enemy and pushed it like a rolling boulder trap- that i would accept. a solid sphere? yes, simple shape. hollow sphere? that qualifies as complex, if nothing else then figureing out how to shape the inside using hands that cant pass through matter. if they had been REALLY clever they could have just moulded the stone to trap the foes without air.

oh, by the way- im a DM, so any argument that im full of feces and dont know what im tlaking about only goes so far.

You are so full of it you spill when you talk.

[Netami]

This sounds like the Wizards of the Coast forums. I've DM'd before too, but I'm not the strictest on rules. It's all about fun when we play. That being said, I'm not sure how I would have treated the situation. I usually take character actions that are a bit far-fetched like the ship one, and use it to motivate the plot. The shield thing is a little on the cheese side.

[Aridas]

Heh, the few times i've ever played, it was with some whacked-out easy "rules".. well, easy in some ways and hard in all the rest... Makes for more character deaths. It was all for fun. Didn't live long enough to get into any situations like that though.

[Brunhidden]

what a player should always remember is that from time to time, you do it cause the DM said so.

it could be important to the plot that you go where your going, dont escape, take the path labled as the way to go instead of wandering blindly in the desert, or allow villan so and so to survive long enough to swear revenge

you could be pissing the DM off, the other players off, hogging the game to yourself, makeing a complex problem with a well thought out solution something you throw out the window, or just defeating something thats supposed to take you the next half hour to work through in five minutes.


like i said, its cause the DM said so

Because, thats why

[superluser]

what a player should always remember is that from time to time, you do it cause the DM said so.

Yup.  Today's DnDorks drives that point home.

[Brunhidden]

yeah, theres a line between being very clever and makeing it a good game and being an ass and abuseing class skills

a rouge useing phaseing arrows to bypass a dragons natural armor and materialise in its brain? brilliant, not an instant kill anyway and its pretty damned cool

a rouge saying he is going to use his theft skills to try and steal someones heart from thier chest to score an instant kill? thats being an ass

"lets say your house was on fire, and you could only take one thing out. what would it be? i expect you would try to take your dear old mum right?"
"no mam, me mum could take herself out."
"well what would you take out?"
"why, the fire of course"

[Boog]

Well, for the cleric bit I'd go with stuff already mentioned; reflex save since the target isn't holding still, and very carefully keeping track of the stone being effected.

As for the psionics, that could get tricky. Since it's supposed to be a shelter, you wouldn't be sending things through it over a long period of time; say the water constantly rushing through creates wear and tear on the passage, making it so it doesn't stay open as long. The way I see it, it's designed to be opened, ducked into, and closed. Keeping it open while a whole lot of water rushes through would be a strain on the spell. Ergo, instead of sinking the ship you may end up just partially flooding it.

[Reese Tora]

Well, for the cleric bit I'd go with stuff already mentioned; reflex save since the target isn't holding still, and very carefully keeping track of the stone being effected.

As for the psionics, that could get tricky. Since it's supposed to be a shelter, you wouldn't be sending things through it over a long period of time; say the water constantly rushing through creates wear and tear on the passage, making it so it doesn't stay open as long. The way I see it, it's designed to be opened, ducked into, and closed. Keeping it open while a whole lot of water rushes through would be a strain on the spell. Ergo, instead of sinking the ship you may end up just partially flooding it.

You can also always go semantics on them; the exact wording states that 'You and other creatures can enter the shelter at will.'

Without any other qualifying text, this implies that only a creature willfully entering the portal(and anything they are capable of carrying with them) may so enter.

As such, that would preclude any unattended object from passing through the portal, and the ocean is technically an unattended object(anything large enough to 'attend' the ocean would not be able to move through the portal with it anyway).